Topic: toss speed on pull shot

[clhereistian]

I am a foosball beginner. We just got a Cyclone table in the break room at work; before this we had a really crappy table. Most of our play to this point has been hitting the ball really hard without much control. Most of the goals are scored from the defense or 5-man. No one has  taken the time to develop good shots from the offensive men. So I'm trying to learn the pull shot. I've got to the point where I can hit it short, middle and long about 75% of the time. The problem is that it gets blocked too much because the toss isn't fast enough.  Does anyone have tips on increasing the lateral speed of my pull shot?

Also, what are the most important things to learn when playing against players like I mentioned? I always play offense.

[foosinaround69]

The most important thing is to relax when you do your pull. This wil increase your lateral speed. It is like a baseball player who swings at a pitch. You don't home run swing, you swing easily. Don't tense up and try not to have some kinda tell. When you try to go so fast you'll in all likelyhood try too hard and whiff at the ball or go around it never getting a good clean hit on the ball.

As for playing against players, don't worry about speed right now...just execute...keep doing your shot...with time speed will come and reading the d will also come to you as well...Good luck...and...keep foosinaround!!!! Peace!!!!

[gitablok]

I will try to help you but be warned, I might go on forever.

First, let me say that speed is not an end all be all. Those here who know can attest, one of the best pulls in the game had mediocre  speed at best. His ability to read a defense and and wait one out was unmatched. He would hit holes that simply were not there. He is at least a 13 time world champ. Steve Murray. Never had a fast stroke but he did have the gift of finding the hole.

Okay, now, hitting the ball hard is not necessary to score. Let me state, ANY ENERGY WHICH IS NOT DIRECTED AT LATERAL MOVEMENT OF THE ROD WILL SLOW THE MOVEMENT OF SAID ROD. Let me explain. If you try to hit the ball excessively hard, your body moves for balance compensation, your elbow moves either too far out or in to generate the power for the ball to go forward, the man comes too far off the ball to hit it which gives your opponent a clue where you will hit it, also the death grip on the handle is also detrimental to the stroke. What you want is for all energy exerted to be parallel or tangent to the rod you are shooting on. Even though I have not seen you shoot, I will almost guarantee you have a lot of unnecessary body movement when you shoot the ball.

The fix. DISTANCE. With your arms extended, approach the table until your palms touch the table. This will be your approximate distance of your right foot from the table. Another way to do this is to pull the three rod completely out and with your right hip, make a parallel line to the table. Don't worry, it's gonna feel weird at first, believe me, you are not to far from the table. The reason for this is balance. Whether you shoot a straight or a long, you must have balance throughout the entire stroke. Have good balance and you eliminate body movement, Less body movement equals more speed in the stroke.

Next, the GRIP. With the man either perpendicular to the table or just slightly angled back, grip the handle as if you are about to shake it's hand. Now try to put your thumb on top of the handle. If you can without any strain, you have the right grip, if not, rotate hand accordingly. Also, use a very loose grip at the beginning of the stroke vs. a tight one. What this does is eliminate backswing. Eliminate backswing, add speed to the stroke.

Now, STANCE. If you have done so far what I've said, you should be standing with shoulders square to the table. With your back foot still in place, turn  your body 45 degrees and square your shoulders to the corner of the table being careful to leave your feet at least a shoulder width apart to keep your balance. What this does is put your body in perfect balance for the finish portion of the stroke before it starts vs. trying to move your body there in the middle of the stroke. Your stance however, will be something you have to experiment with because of different bodytypes but the two constants are distance and balance. This conserves a lot of energy which again adds to the speed of the stroke.

STROKE. There are basically two different strokes with another being a combo of the two. The most accurate is the square or the "7" stroke or what I sometimes call the "punch" stroke and is also referred to as the "dead stroke". This stroke is called this because the finish portion of the stroke is back towards the other side of the table which generates the forward and sometimes angled back path of the ball. The other is called a spray stroke which is primarily a speed stroke. The finish of this stroke is towards the wall in which you are shooting. Since the ball never squares or angles back, the release of the ball is that much quicker. The last is a combination of the two and is what a lot of the pros use. The combo of the 7 stroke with a little spray allows you to get to specific holes with speed.

Hopefully I have not bored you to death. Before you start worrying about speed, concentrate on TECHNIQUE. That will get you farther than just pure speed.

As far as what you should learn, BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL.

ICEMAN.

[rradjabi]

I shoot a pull shot. I spray the ball, and I want to be able to square off my shots better.

What can I do to square my shot? I've tried doing more of a 7 stroke, but I can't seem to do it on the table.

[gitablok]

Having not seen you shoot, might be a problem but I will try.

For every problem, there are symptoms that bring out fundamental flaws in your technique.

Your problem, not being able to hit a square stroke. The symptom, you always spray the ball.

Let me start first by saying the Tornado table works on leverage. In other words, the best players have figured out how to make the "table" work vs. using their bodies to do the work.

One of the most common symptoms of your problem is standing too close to the table. Let me explain what happens when you are too close to the table. As you begin your stroke, say to shoot a straight or a middle, you have leverage. In other words, your body still has good balance. But when the handle passes your right hip you begin to lose your leverage of which is needed to force the ball in the other direction in the release. When you lose your leverage, your right shoulder and hip rotate away from the table in the direction of the movement to compensate for your body's imbalance which in turn will not allow you to square the ball. So what happens is you hit the far side of the ball which causes it to spray.

To help your problem, do what I stated above as a starting point for distance and stance. Now stick with me because I'm headed to left field. The pull shot in its most simple form is not really a shot...it is a pass. A brush pass to be exact, it's just a very violent one done with the right hand. This first drill will prove it is a pass into the goal but it will also teach you the finish motion of the 7 stroke.

After getting your distance and stance, pull the 3 all the way to the wall. Now place the ball on the middle guy in a pin position. Now move the ball just slightly forward where the ball will not pin but in a position to still feel the ball as if to brush pass. This is what I call the "pinch" position. Now put the man as close as  you can to the ball. As smooth and as quick as you can without any backswing, force the ball into the goal with a motion back toward the wall opposite you as if you were doing a brush up being mindful of the pinch feel you will experience on the release. This simple drill will teach you the release motion of the 7 stroke.

Next drill. Set the ball in same position you had before with the previous drill. Now put the 3 rod as if you were about to shoot a pull but leave the ball in the long position. Now take off as if you have the ball on the middle guy and approach the ball. Now execute the first drill. After you master this drill, then add the ball at the beginning. This drill mimics the entire mechanics of the 7 stroke. Perform this drill religiously and shot will for sure get better.

Another common symptom of spraying the ball can also having the ball too far forward which also prevents that "pinch" which is needed to force the ball back in the 7 stroke. The simple fix would be to just move the ball back a bit.

As you can see, I can go on all day. This is why I really need to see you shoot to diagnose your problem.  Hopefully I have helped you. If not, just let me know.

ICEMAN.

[rradjabi]

Iceman,

Thanks for all the great tips. I don't know if you've helped me, but you sure gave me a bunch to go and practice. I'm stoked. I'll let you know how it works out for me. Thanks.

[rradjabi]

I just tried out the drills. They were perfectly described and easy to repeat. I'll practice them for a while and see how they help on my pulls.

[clhereistian]

Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means  I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?

[clhereistian]

Iceman, can I ask you one more question? Where should my elbow be located during the toss? Does the position of my elbow change as I shoot the ball?

I assume from what you say that other than my arm and hand, my body should remain still for the entirety of the pull shot. Is that right?

[PatRyan]

Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means  I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?

Once you have your distsnace from the table, keep your left foot still and move your right foot so that your shoulders(which you should keep square with your hips) are at a 45 degree angle to the side of the table, you should be facing the near corner of the table on front of you.

[bbtuna]

Good posts iceman...I like the detail, i only wish we could do stuff like this with pictures

you are asking about your elbow during the shot I assume right?

what ice is explaining I think is an approach I think more and more people will move to as time goes on....I have read, from super great very proven players, that with the pull shot you use your hips for power etc

however, i have watched a ton of video and I don't think any person around has a better stroke (for rollover, pull, push, everything) than Billy Pappas...no one moves less (normally) on his rollover than Billy..it is all arm, no shoulder, hips, etc...very fluid..same thing when I see him shoot a pull

i believe, and understand this is not "proven" but I believe after observing and trying it myself, that you can get all the speed and power you need with only your arm moving and your should just being a pivot

i will go a step further, I think, the fastest most powerful shot you can do is one with the least amount of muscle involved and one which use the are only

Billy has been doing this so long I doubt he thinks about it but for me and others with habits already in place, it is tough (but not impossible) to make the transition

you have a chance to start from scratch...

don't worry about speed, worry about a good smooth stroke that has no visible sign of when it starts and that looks the same regardless if you shoot straight, middles, or longs..learn to read defenses and be willing to shoot any hole to score...now, if it turns out you have a frightening burning fast long stroke then so much the better but don't let the need for speed cloud good judgment

i don't care where I score a ball, as long as it goes in, I get as much pleasure from a bomb as I do a dink so learn to love scoring anywhere, it will help your shot mature

[clhereistian]

Thanks bbtuna. I have one scenario I was wondering about on the pull.  Some defenders I play against, I can score with the pull ok. There is one guy that always stops me. What he does is line one of his men on the two-man stick right in front of the ball when I set for the pull. He lines up one of the men from the goalie stick just to the inside of that. When I start the pull, he moves both men toward me at the same speed. I can get by the two-man  ok, but I hit the goalie most of the time because I'm not fast enough to get by both guys. I'm not sure how to find a hole because as I pull, both guys follow me and a hole doesn't open.

How would you suggest combating that defense?

[Steve]

I dont want but in but it sounds like hes raceing you these people leave straights open learn a good fake I like to raise my man and cause the ball to turn it will make him jump then slam a straight, you also need to change speeds to shoot behind him or split  you can even try aimeing at the goalie ,theres always a way good luck.

[alaskan thunder]

Easiest way to beat the race defense is to either learn to hit a spray to the corner or to fake him off the straight. The ol' John Wayne also works when someone is waiting on you and reacting.  

[EDGEER]

Your body diamensions will affect where you need to stand.  I could never stand like Steve Murray or Carl Peterson, because I'm 6" taller than both of them.  I found the best stance is the one that allows me free balanced movement the entire lenght of the shot. Practice your toss just like you are going to shoot but focus on the ball and it's path.  Watch how the ball rolls as you draw it towards you. Then swing through the ball in a smooth single motion.


Good Luck