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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: rradjabi on November 18, 2007, 06:12:50 PM

Title: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: rradjabi on November 18, 2007, 06:12:50 PM
I have been shooting the pull ever since I've been playing (got my first table 10 months ago, and got a Tornado 2 months ago). I have gotten pretty good with it, but I'm a little bit bored shooting it because the effectiveness has  sort of plateaued.

Back-pin:
How do you shoot the back pin? I'm not totally sure what is done in the shot. Is the shot made by pinning the ball in back and passing it between the men and firing it away? If so, how do you avoid stubbing the man/ball into the table?

Front-pin:
This shot is damn hard to shoot, if you ask me. I've toyed around with the open hand grip and find it too hard to control. The closed hand is more natural feeling, but I can't generate much speed on the pitch or the shot. It's also way hard to shoot it push.

I know most of you are thinking shoot the pull or learn the snake because they are higher percentage shots, and easier to do, but I am not playing in tournaments yet, and I enjoy impressing people with a creative shot or something different from the boring snake that everyone shoots.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Old Meister on November 18, 2007, 09:43:11 PM
Do me a favor. I'm not up on playing on Tornados but from what I've seen most of the shots are done from the front pin. So this is what I'd like to know, and you being open to experimenting, maybe you could explore this for me. Pin the ball in front  away from center and rock it with light pressure
. Then as you come towards your side increase the pressure so that the ball squirts to the far man and as the man is already back you then hit forward so that the shot is done in a babang fashion. I could do this on Tournament Soccer tables but haven't got the chance on Tornados. This shot has to be the fastest side movement without telegraphing that there is but the thing is is control and I don't know Tornado tables to know if this shot is possible. I know that the distance in front of the rod that the ball was was critical in whether this shot works but if it does, this shot will make any goalie have fits. Add this to a snake and you are a monster. The fact that your movement is the opposite direction from where the shot happens is really a problem. But like I said, it might not work on a Tornado, go figure,,,
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: B,inSA on November 19, 2007, 12:06:30 AM
That sounds pretty sick, O M. Ill let you know if i can get it to work on a harvard.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: B,inSA on November 19, 2007, 03:52:55 AM
ok, O M , i have a good report.it can be done on a harvard. the shot is sweet. i noticed if i get better, i can do a "change-up" which is slower, but with alot more spin. It just is so slow and easy to hit.Nice shot, and thank you, please tell me aboot more shots.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 19, 2007, 10:01:46 AM
I shoot the back pin as my primary shot...fairly recently someone contacted me having read an old post from the foosballboard; a post where I brought up shooting a backpin...the person was asking about the backpin in particular they were having trouble stubbing the ball and we had a series of email exchanges about how to shoot the back pin...

before I post all that I have written, I thought I would give you the outline so far and see if you have interest in knowing more...I will post this under a seperate thread called Back Pin Rules

anyone with interest at exploring, learning, or arguing about the best (and yet hardest) shot in foosball can let me know and I will be open to follow this as far as anyone wants
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: grandmaster on November 19, 2007, 10:24:26 AM
I agree. the back pin RULES. I shoot all shots on all tables but when it comes to crunch time... well, here comes a back pin for sure. Some tables are good for certain shots. Tornado is good for back pin reverses. I hate to give away the farm, but you better watch the OTHER way when I've got the ball in a back pin. Tornado is also good for back pin reverse push and pull kicks. And I hate to say it, Tornado goalie bank shots are much easier to acurately execute from a back pin reverse kick than any other moving way. Deadmans are sooo easy, like falling off a log from a back pin albeit a little slow and easy to race. Thus the reverse is the likely open play most of the time.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 19, 2007, 11:13:06 AM
well, I agree starting the lateral motion on the back pin is more difficult than any other shot but with proper practice and technique that can be over come...the lateral motion on a back pin for most people is slower than other shots and so it has gotten the rep for being a slower shot (more options and control but slower)

however, I have enough experience to know this is not true...if I could work with someone who had Bill Pappas hand speed, I could prove my point but until some top skilled players take up the shot, it will always be a novelty

I started out when I was young with the idea of changing that preception and was well on my way but life happened and I gave up the pursuit...now at 50, my time has past to influence people through proving the back pin at Majors and/or the World foosball stage so now I have to be satisfied with different goals
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: grandmaster on November 19, 2007, 11:31:28 AM
Rick Martin had a nice pin push. Dan Kaiser and Rick won some tounaments in the 70's with Rick playing front and using the back pin. We  used to call him the "Rocket Launcher".
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 19, 2007, 01:05:03 PM
I saw Rick play some time between 77-79 but never saw him shoot a back pin...I have heard others say he had a really good back pin and I am disappointed not to be able to see it...I have heard that Horton had a good one too

I take both of these with a grain of salt since I didn't see them and it wasn't in either case their primary shot...

Rick may have won a few tournaments while shooting the back pin particailly or primarily but Rick left and the game died right when back pins were beginning to become more accepted (early 80s)
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Old Meister on November 19, 2007, 06:25:58 PM
Towards the end of my foosing I lived by the back pin. Rocking and tap dancing it back and forth and going into a reverse push or pull or a push kick or pull kick angle from the side men. Depending on the table I might throw in a bank just to mix it up. Once in awhile I would do a three man toe reversal push kick starting in the middle with a back pin and reversing to my close man and kicking it to the far man and angling it in. You could get around a deadman that way. I played around Dan Kaiser a little and it seemed his big shot was the pull kick or push kick. He shot clean for sure. I don't know if Rick Martin was around then or not. The very best back pin reversals I ever saw was this guy in mid Wisconsin. Just incredible but that was on Deutcher Meister tables. He and his partner went down to Iowa and beat the Iowa state champions and Iowa was a real hot bed for foosball back in the mid 70's. Believe it or not, that was where my wife and I spent our honeymoon, foosing in Iowa, the quad cities area. I hate it that it died out like it did. Even now it would be hard to get a good game without traveling.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: rradjabi on November 20, 2007, 04:41:27 PM
I've been toying around with the shot the last few days. I have gotten a lot better at moving the ball laterally and keeping it pinned, then releasing it from the pin when I want. Here are the shots I've done the most. Let me know if there are some other good and basic shots/series to try that I can pick up easily.

1. center man over the middle of the goal - push shoot straight; pull shoot straight
2. center man passes to near man and shoot straight near hole or angled (this shot is pretty fast and easy to repeat, but I'm not consistently controlling if it's straight or angled)

Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Rios on November 20, 2007, 06:24:21 PM
love the back pin!  it is a sweet shot, but it just doesnt win on tour...

the best back pin I have seen was from a guy up in Wisconsin.  Not sure of his name but it was a nasty shot.  Didnt do alot of reverses, but went dead man it seemed like every shot both ways and he would pinch a straight in there to keep you honest.  I love shooting it, but I am not that good with it.  It is fun for pick up games.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: pinalyzer on November 21, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
Hello Fellow Backpiners,
I have used the backpin to some success on tour and like the shot because it has many options most challenging, and it doesn't wear on the arm.
The downside is the jars can be drastic and hard to argue.
I like the dribble style, but can do the stopped shots... However my style is not a shoot fast and hard so the dribble, no telegraph style works for me.

Below is a quick brief on shooting the shot.

Overview of the back pin.
To start out you must know that it is not necessary to pin the ball hard to execute the shot.  There is the vise Back-Pin where you keep hard pressure between the man and the ball. Swaying back and forth or from the still position a player can execute the long to the near and far hole and the splits.  But, I will describe the dribble Back-Pin shot.  The difference is that you can apply fakes and shot the treaded middle from the back pin position when you are dribbling the ball.
The back pin like any other shots should use multiple options from the same starting position. However, with the back pin and front pin shots you have multiple options from multiple starting positions.  This tip covers the basic starting position of the middle forward 3-man position.
The starting position:
Place the ball by hand under the Middle 3-man and press down until you can pinch the ball between the man and the table.  You should be putting just enough pressure on the ball so that it cannot pinch out.
Hit down on the ball to verify that it is in place, once again it does not need to be hard.   
The next step is the lift the man up off the ball and raise to about 90 degrees and slam back down on the ball.  By doing this you can practice the optimum starting position for the back pin. 
Drills to learn shot.
With the ball securely in the back pin position on the middle 3-man move the ball just about ½” to either side and re-catch the ball in the back pin position.  This “baby stepping” is a huge key in learning the dribbling method.  It builds confidence and a feel for the motion. As you are able to maintain the back pin position move farther and farther from the starting position. This walking of the ball is a key drill for the first couple of weeks as you are learning the shot or getting comfortable on a new table style. 
A key to the dribble is the release off the back pin when executing the shot. To learn this part you place the ball in the back pin position and press down on the ball and move the ball away from you till you have the ball in the front pin position.  Going back and forth between the front and back pin positions you develop the feel that is necessary to execute the options with minimal telegraphing.
As with any shot to telegraph where you are planning to shoot is not beneficial.  With the ability to dribble and the feel to shoot in place, you can start practicing the options.
While dribbling the back pin, shoot combinations, e.g. nearside dead bar/reverse push long, both side cutbacks, far side dead bar/reverse pull long.
To practice setting it up:
Once on the three man, move the ball into the push kick position with the ball to the side of the man.  Push toward the middle man and hit the side of the man and brush it up toll it in on the back pin.
Tips to maximize your shots effectiveness.
The last step is game play where you learn to read defenses and apply fakes.  Most people do the shake or scramble defenses and with those you can shoot the dead bar to either side.  One of my favorites is to fake to the push side which pulls the front man on the defense to move toward the push side of the hole.  This leave a little split and I take it, as I pull back and execute the 3 quarter pull side split.
A good drill is to move the ball from the middle man to each of the other men on the three rod while still maintaining back pin position.
The Pinalyzer

Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: grandmaster on November 21, 2007, 10:02:29 AM
Great post! We need more like it. Beginners read twice.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Billings Semi-pro on November 21, 2007, 09:07:47 PM
Back pins are fun but not my first or second choice of option for tourney matches.  I used to set the ball up in the back pin poisition on the 3bar, like pull shooters do.  I would look for the short, middle, long, and reverse options.  I can't tell you how many times I made a ball from all the top spin on the ball.  Back pins are cool but I shoot the front pin way better from the foreword position.  Back pin brush shots, reverses to a pull kick or push are the bomb from the goalie posoition.   I started out with back pins years ago but went to front pins from playing the french tables.  I adapted to the Tornado and now shoot front pins on it very well.  If you shoot a front pin, I would suggest learning the push, pull, and straight series.  I like the front pin cause it is closer to the goal.  I shoot a roller to but often when I shoot a front pin it is mistaken for a snake.  I would suggest walking the ball, tapping on the ball, and controlling the ball forwards and aft on the 3bar.  Controlling the ball is where is at. 

I played Rick Martin in a tourney in 06 and he was shooting nothing but a pull shot.  I would have loved to have seen his back pin compared to his pull.  I am sure he wished I shot my back pin on him instead of my front pin.  In my opinion, back pins just are not consitant enough to trade punches with.  Has any player ever won a forward shoot out just shooting a back pin?
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 21, 2007, 09:39:59 PM
My understanding is that in the early 80's several people won with backpins when the table fit the shot

there are a number of reasons you don't see backpins as primary shots
1.  On Euro tables, they have almost too much ball control which makes getting out from under the pin very difficult.  However, lots of control is perfect for a front pin which is the reason the Europin is the most popular shot on the 4 major European tables
2.  The back pin can be done on Tornado but it is not easy and it requires a ton of work much more than other shots.  The rollover is easy to learn, has many less variables/variations, looks cool, and can be effective almost right away

Even so, I think the backpin is potentially the best shot on the table.  These tables make it more difficult to shoot the shot but not impossible.  If players with outrageous skills like Billy Pappas and Fred Colliogon committed early in their learning to do the backpin, they would prove the value and worth of the shot.

However, this doesn't mean everyone would take on the shot.  Look at how dominant Fred has been with a Euro pin for the last almost 10 years on Tornado and yet no significant Tornado player has taken on the shot.  Why?  Because the roller is easier to learn and it is effective so people don't have the incentive to try and learn something which requires much more work.

Because you tried a backpin and found it was not as effective as another shot you tried is in no way evidence for one shot being better than the other.  All it proves is for you that one shot is better.

A backpin can go deadman in both directions, can shoot the 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 holes straight and brushed from any of up to 10 positions.  It can go reverse better than any shot on the table (not even a close second).   It can be shot from at least 3 distinctly different dribble methods in addition to a stationary rock, and a stand still.  You can do almost an unlimited number of types of fakes in the same direction or reverse.  And then there are all the options off the other 2 men on the 3 rod which are litterally unlimited.

enough for this post but more to come

backpinrules@yahoo.com
bbtuna
bbt
Charles
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: grandmaster on November 22, 2007, 11:53:01 AM
I agree Charles. The Backpin is the universal shooting method.
Happy Thanksgiving
Oly
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Billings Semi-pro on November 23, 2007, 02:10:41 AM
BBtuna,

I said backpins were cool and all.  I still shoot them but you are right for me front pins are more effective.  I did play around with backpin rollovers but the straight was to hard for me.  Also, I have to agree with the backpin being the universal shooting method.  However, I don't see alot players winning with a 3bar that just shoots back pins.  I have seen games won with backpins as the forward "A" game but not big tourneys.  This is just my opinon.  I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to play in a tourney that had events that specified the shot forwards had to use.  For example, a back pin forward shoot out, back pins only singles, doubles, and so on.  Any shot on the rest of the table but the 3 bar.  It would be interested to watch let alone play. 

Jeremy
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Old Meister on November 23, 2007, 09:00:14 AM
How would you like to play without any pins at all? That is how those Italian tables  were back in 69 through 73.  You couldn't pin a ball to save your life so everything you did was touch. Some guys setup shots and hit the long,short or dink with pulls or pushes. But the good guys made the ball dance by going around it and then doing lightening fast reversals. The men were hard with small non-textured feet and the tables were slick smooth. The balls were hard as marbles and were fast. Tornado players would pull their hair out trying to play on one of these.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 23, 2007, 10:21:09 AM
Billings,

I was responding mainly to your comment

"In my opinion, back pins just are not consitant enough to trade punches with."

It is your opinion and it is your right to have any opinion that you want but that doesn't make the opinion fact

I agree that no backpin has one a major at least not since the 80's.  I also agree that you don't see any of the top competitive players shooting backpins on any of the 5 ITSF recognized tables.  Heck, I think it would be safe to say there isn't a player in the top 75-100 on each table shooting a backpin.

So, I can not and will not argue that the backpin is as viable a shot as the pull, europin, or rollover; the 3 shots which make up 98% of the worlds shooters and titles on every table for at least the last 25-30 years.  I will not argue that point based on tournament play.

However, that does not mean it is not a viable shot and as capable as any other shot at being "consistent" (your word).  Is there something in the shot that would keep players from being able to execute it with the same consistency as any other shot?  I think the answer to this is obvious...obviously "No".

Look at what the very best European players have been able to do with a Europin...Fred C. has been able to showcase for 10 years that a person is physically capable of consistenly shooting a Europin at the highest levels of competition.  There is nothing physical keeping a backpin from being able to do this too.

This is why I mentioned (in my first response to you) the reasons I don't think the backpin has ever caught on as a primary shot for top players.  I will go further to say it isn't likely it ever will, not because it lacks consistency, speed, options, etc but because of the reasons I mentioned in my first response.

It is sad, because it would make the game much more interesting if a mix of the top players used a backpin.  I promote the backpin with hopes that some day, some up and coming phenom player will choose the backpin as their primary shot.  I am disappointed that Tony Spredman didn't pick it up.  He would have been the most likely since his dad is a backpin shooter but he went with the power and wow of the rollover (and reivented that I might add).  Can you imagine the backpin in the hands of someone as creative and determined has Tony?

Anyway, it is the best shot on the table and it is capable of winning, we just haven't seen it come into the game as a prominent shot and likely never will.  I wish I was young again and hadn't given up on the game in 1980, I believe that history would now view the backpin differently.  However, I have to be content with trying to influence at this point.  I think if you faced me regularly and took some time to consider what you are seeing from a 50 year old player, you would totally and permanently change your view of the backpin.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Billings Semi-pro on November 23, 2007, 05:19:41 PM
bbtuna,

I showed my oldest son (Chance) the back pin today.  He is 10 years old and has a rough draft roller but because of your post I took the time to show him the elements of a backpin.  I used to shoot a backpin and still can but I prefer other options as they have proven themselves to be more consistent for me.  I encouraged him to consider this shot for his "A" game.  Hopefully, he will continue to practice it, we will just have to see. 

"I think if you faced me regularly and took some time to consider what you are seeing from a 50 year old player, you would totally and permanently change your view of the backpin."  So what are you saying?  If I played you regularly, I would change my mind just from seeing your game?  I wish, I could see a great back pinner.  I have seen several players your age (or close to it) shot back pins very well.  I am aware of the options.  Maybe we will see a young prodigy rise up with a new prospective and utilize the back pin in ways like you describe.  Hopefully soon.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Billings Semi-pro on November 23, 2007, 05:59:23 PM
Old Meister,

I was in Italy in the early 90's (NAVY) and played on a couple tables as you described.   I played against a bunch Italians and was able to take'em with pull shots and a hack fest.  I tried to pin the ball and it was a no go for me.  At that time I was  playing the french tables (in the states) and they were the complete opposite of the Italian table.  I have no idea the name of the table.  Go 2 ball roller ball! 

Jeremy Housley
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Old Meister on November 23, 2007, 07:22:50 PM
Cool Billings! Yeah it was a hackfest type table alright. There were things you learned on it that could be used on later tables which really came out of left field for some goalies to block. I really hated that word,hack. As I learned the game I felt that the way to play was to show them a different shot for every point so they never knew what was coming and then mix that up with making sure they knew what was coming and shoving that down their throat. I wish that they had a tournament that you couldn't repeat a shot that you scored on per game. How do you think that would go over?
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Rios on November 24, 2007, 03:51:09 AM
TOny's dad shoots a push kick series...  I think that he does shoot a back pin series from the back though...
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on November 24, 2007, 11:50:29 AM
Jeremy,

I am humbled and proud that you took time with your son.  My son is now 23 and never took up a serious interest in foosball.  It is too bad because he has some real nice natural skills including playing smart.  I spent time with both my kids when they were little (my second is a girl who will be 25 on Christmas eve). 

It is difficult for me to recommend to starting players to shoot a backpin even though I love it and think it is the best shot on the table.  I am up front, probalby to a fault, to tell people it is not only the best shot but it is the hardest shot to learn.  It takes a big commitment to get the shot tournament ready.  This is not true with a rollover.  The overall learning curve is shorter (much shorter) and you get almost instant gratification.  It goes booom and looks cool.  Any time you have spectators and they see a just a decent rollover they oooh and ahhh. 

The the basics of a rollover are simple, long both ways and a straight.  Now there is much more that can be done but even in its most complex mature form it is only a fraction of what a mature backpin has to deal with.

The natural release of a rollover is far superior to any other shot and this release alone makes it dangerous even in the hands of a novice.

Still, maybe someday, a young creative phenom will see all the benefits and make the commitment to develop a backpin.  When I was young, motivated, and had the time (now I am old, motivated, and don't have time) I wanted to develop a game that was unique and I wanted to find new boundries and take the game to places it had never been.  That was my dream for foosball.

This is what I would try and tell your son if I could.  To let him know that he could leave his mark on the history of foosball.  Foosball is still a young "sport" (or game) and we have not seen how far it can go.  Fred C. has taken the game to a new place but there is another like Fred out there right now.  Someone who will (and can) dedicate their life to the advancement of foosball.  It has to be a person with a pure desire and drive because they will need to do for the love of the game and not for money.  Like an artist or like early golfers, basketball players, baseball, football, etc.

As totally outstanding as Fred has been and all that he has accomplished (far far far beyond anyone else in the sports short history) I think it can go further.  I understand that FC doesn't practice any more except leading up to big tournaments.  I want to see someone like FC push and push well into his thirties practicing like they did when they were developing.  My gosh, who knows what FC would discover in the game.  FC is the closest but there is another out there now, maybe your son, who can rewrite foosball history and do it shooting a backpin.

ahhhh, we will see...maybe in my lifetime, just maybe

Charles
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: grandmaster on November 27, 2007, 11:03:00 AM
What a great topic this had been. In answer to the original question, you shoot the back pin the same way you get to Carngie Hall - practice, practice, practice!
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: ventin on April 06, 2008, 12:18:13 AM
Hey Charles,
i can feel your passion about the back pin where >95% would have conveniently ignored. I have the same passion too. At the moment, i guess there is no videos of foosers shooting the back pin with huge effectiveness and results.
Maybe you can do one for back pin lovers so that we can develop our game. A video is worth a thousand words. I will do one too when i get some folks to help me out.

Keep backpinning :)
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: foosinaround69 on April 06, 2008, 03:37:50 AM
As far as I am concerned My backpin will never go away....NEVER..I've been shooting it forever and I shoot it now better than ever...I...not to toot my own horn...am definatly an expert in the backpin...(As told to me by many)..and I am here to tell you that it IS a shot that gets no credit and I wish more people would shoot it....My nick name is "Anacondabackpin"...And I don't shoot it with a wrist all the time..I use it with the open hand...and just when you think I'm going to slam it AGAIN...I brush it in the middle!!!! I love the backpin there are quite a few options and when it doesn't want to work properly(almost never..lol) I shoot the pull!!!!! When I shoot it I bring the ball side ways and slightly forword abit and kinda brush it in if you will (open handed) It did take awhile to perfect(years)..But it has payed off.....It works for me that's all I can say....!!!!!  Keep foosinaround!!!!




Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Steve on April 06, 2008, 09:29:08 AM
I shot a back pin in the late 70s deadman both sides its wicked if I had a good wrist I would still shoot it The push side I realy relaxed my wrist and stroked it out there .Know its the euro pin I shoot push side is hard to do but you dont have to shoot it much I walk the ball and split them 99% of the time either side use light to med pressure for the toss I palm roll so I can get around the ball fast I only have to beat one defender on the two rod once Im around him its hammer time ,Watch all the video on Fredreco his hand position the holes he pics he is the best with out a dought I am learning the front pin pullkick thats a fun one.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on April 06, 2008, 09:41:16 AM
ventin

i have been asked this before and I need to take the time to do this

i would really like it if me, and FA69, and The Pinanlylzer were to make videos so you could see 3 dedicated backpinners with 3 distinct styles

i will work on my part
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: foosinaround69 on April 06, 2008, 08:20:15 PM
bbtuna,

   Great Idea!!!! I just need to know how to put it online once it is recorded...I would love to see how you shoot as well as show you the same!!! My shot is kinda strange cause I actually move the ball over then the man comes down and then back up and down to hit the ball ...all in a split second!!!(for the long pull anyway) Do you use the wrist or open or a combo of both?? Anyway let me know what to do to post it and I'll get some footage together...K??
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: Old Meister on April 06, 2008, 10:10:00 PM
I've been trying to get my kid to video my shots so maybe you wouldn't mind a little company?
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: pinalyzer on April 07, 2008, 01:17:13 PM
It is hard to video by yourself and really adds a level of concentration.  At this point I try to film with my left as I shoot it with my right.  I think tonight I will try to set the camera somewhere aimed at the shot and get some footage.  I hear what Charles is saying about reverses and such, but at the tourney Saturday night, I shot about 80 to 90 percent and didn't have to do anything other than the pull side, push side longs and both side splits.  I think I will practice up my reverses, but I often find that the goalie accidently gets in the way on my reverses.  But as you will see with my dribble no-telegraph style, I am looking for the open hole then crush down on it to take the open hole.  I do some fake one side then pull back and take the split but usally open hole shooting,
Tommorrow, I will try to post some video or sent to Dan that can put it up for me.
John
AKA-The pinalyzer,
Hey Charles do you remember me, you reffed my semi-singles final at the tour kick-off in Okalahoma city in the early 90's where I shot the Backpin front and goalie.  AFter the first match, which I lost, you left as we were going by the rules.
Title: Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
Post by: bbtuna on April 07, 2008, 02:16:26 PM
Pin,

you are thinking of someone else, I wasn't playing in the early 90s and haven't ever been to OK and it is a personal value of mine to be a good sport...I played 1975 to 1981 (ish) and then picked up again in Octish of 2003 and have only played in St Louis and KS since then...I think if my memory serves me right, we have had this conversation one other time

as far as filming goes, I have a tri-pod, I can't imagine filming any other way...in the late 70's I created what I call a silent dribble where the man is on the ball most of the time, I wonder if that is the same thing as what you are talking about when you say "dribble no-telegraph style"

on reverses, it is about picking the right time and defense...someone who follows first movement real well or is bait happy...in the first case you need only start in one direct and this goalie bails out and so it is easily open the second is someone who is nervous because you have beaten them to the bait hole and so you wait until they are baiting you long and then fake to the bait and shoot the reverses

however, if your lateral speed is fast enough or take off invisible enough, then by all means, shoot like that and only use a reverse when you know the person will completely bail out because you are right, if you choose the wrong time/defense, often people will accidently be in the wrong place

I have a tendency to over yank with my arm which makes me blockable but when I start smooth and let speed happen after the take off, my percentages are very high but this is a major change in my stroke and I can be inconsistent with it and so I have mixed results at times...I haven't been working on my shot for quite some time while I focus on other parts of my game but before year end I will spend some serious time seeing just how smooth I can make it...we will see

in the mean time, I will work on setting up my video and see about transfering to my PC