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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: bfquad on November 28, 2007, 11:11:17 AM
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Which is better?
Solid rod vs Hollow (both 5/8 dia.)
Bushing or ball bearings
one goalie or three
Please advise of other things to look for.
Thanks,
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Excellent questions. My personal table is equipped with solid rods. I choose solid rods to practice with as it helps with conditioning and stroke. Also they hit harder and stay straight basically for the life of the table or more. Ball bearings are a joke. It goes like this, you can spin the rod and go to the bathroom and come back and it is still spinning. The main problem with them is that they bind when you don't want them to and it screws up your shot and maybe your arm. One location I had requested that a single goalie be installed on at least one of the Tornado tables in their establishment (billiard hall). I was amazed at the difference. What a blast to play on! Just like the old days but way better. Something like driving a good hot rod. This table always made more money than the others, either for novelty or other reasons, but man was it fun. I swore to myself that day I would develop a kit for others to install so they could experience the total transformation that a TRADITIONAL ramped eleven man Tornado plays like. If you are lookng to get involved with foosball, do yourself a favor and buy a good used Tornado coin op and put solid rods on it. I practice with 13 man teams for the defensive aspects of tounament play ( ie blocking shots that glance off the outside guys on the goalie rod) but I am a pro and I still play for money. I stay prepared to play on any table, any time. But for the sheer fun of it there is nothing to compare to an eleven on eleven Tornado.
Oly
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Thanks. That tells me everything I wanted to know. It has been years since I played on a regular basis. Back in the 70's in college. I now have kids that are old enough and a room to put the table in.
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You are welcome.
Happy Foosing!
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solid rod verses hollow depends on how the rod is made...the newest Tornado heat-treated hollow rod is stronger, much stronger, than any solid rod I played on in the 70's
if you want to play competitvely in the US, for now anyway, you want the Tornado with the 3 man goalie so you know how to play with them
there is talk of a one man Tornado coming because of the International Table Soccer Federation (ITSF http://www.table-soccer.org/ )which recognizes 5 tables Tornado being the only one with 3 men (and the other 4 are all European tables)
there are kits available right now to convert a 3 man table to 1 man (http://www.recroom-products.com/1gocokit1.html) but I wouldn't do that until Tornado crosses over or a new table starts competeing for tournaments in the US that has 1 man goalie...there has been a lot of talk about this over the past 2 years and it is getting much closer to happening...it may never come about but the player base is sick of the corporate side of Tornado and the random constant table changes...long story, but bottom line is the situation is ripe for a new table and tour
here is a link to a full one man goalie discussion.... http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5902&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=one+man+goalie&start=0
ball bearings could work if they were perfectly enginered but there aren't any like that...for now, the 3 piece set up Tornado has is as good as it gets without doing some custom stuff (which is available...if you want to know more let me know and I will point you in that direction...not cheap but well designed Tornado mods done by an engineer fooser Mark Murrell (same guy who did the super slow motion videos)
anyway, good luck
charles
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It really depends on how serious you plan on getting. Me I want what I play on when I play tournaments..but I also plan on taking over the foosworld.....becasue I play on a less expensive solid rod table at work and it screws with timing. The rods are sturdy but the weight difference is going to make a difference when you play on a hollowed rod table. The new heat treated rods are for real and are really durable. Personally I do not prefer the ramped tables, but just my opinion.....
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My timing is fine. I play on hollow bar Tornado tables or any thing else anyone will play on. At home it is high performance conditioning. The $6.95 Tournament Soccer bars on my Pro Practice (TS-6 clone) Tornado are still straight after more than fifteen years of use. In my experience no one who started on thirteen man teams will ever like playing on anything else. Just as most who start on hollow bars will never like solids. It always comes down to playing a guy on his home court if you think you're good. Any table any time, your place or mine. By the way I also have a 1965 Mondial telescoping molded man Italian table with a glass top that stll plays good also. Foos is foos and if you live with the ball you win.
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GM,
I think what you say about table bias is true for a lot of people...well, at least at first but when exposed to other things long enough, most can find an appreciation for other things...I started on ramps and solid rods but when I came back to the game it had 3 man goalie/no ramps and hollow rods.
In both cases, I can see positives but I could just as easy take the old way as well. I still have a Brown Top coin op I bought in 1981...well, my son has it now with original solid rods and original TS balls...it sat untouched in my basement or garage for at least 15 years...
off subject a little, but I remember back then playing on that table (and the Green and Blue tops) and struggling with learning control. When I came to Tornado, I didn't think it had less control but I noticed right away how true the balls were and how consistent the roll of the ball was, tick tac's etc. Then when my son uncovered the brown top and moved it into his first home and I stepped up, I was shocked at how much control there was...the ball and table did not roll true, that part didn't seem different from my memory but the ball control in a pinned position was unbelievable...I shoot a backpin and I had a VERY hard time getting the ball out from under the man...very weird...
very fun too, ramps (less slop), banks, passing was a bear, etc.
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Eureka Charles, you are on to something. Why play at all? Because it is FUN. No matter the brand as long as you have someone to play.
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A pro basketball player doesn't practice shooting a 3 pointer or free throws with a heavier ball...or shoot on 12 foot goals.....football players at the highest levels practice with the same gear and equipment they use in games.....soccer...the same....tennis...the same...Baseball the same....My point is you should practice with what your gonna compete with....yes the heavy rods were great, but they are out of date......
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Chance,
what you are saying is not totally correct...baseball players use weights on their bats just before going to hit and for warm up, practice, etc...many other sports have resistance training with their strokes/movement including golf and others - resistance and weight training are found in almost every sport
you can have a hollow rod that weighs more than a solid rod and you can have a solid rod that has more flex in it than a hollow rod, it all depends on how the rod is designed (metal type, density, strength, circumference, length, etc)
Johnny Lott is working on a table, a sort of hy-bred of old and new and he is using a solid rod but the circumference is slightly smaller and in the end, it weighs almost exactly what the current hollow rod Tornado does...it is just as good flex/durability and it turns slightly faster because the circumference is smaller (which translates to power and speed at the point of contact)
and rod lateral speed and action is significantly impacted by bearings just another factor to consider
so, I think it is too simple to make broad statements about rod types without considering all the factors
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What about swinging a bat with the iron ring on it in the on deck circle? Keep in mind I'll keep practicing on solids while we debate. Consider the possibillity that your thinking is prejudiced and your mind is closed. In addition I have actually weighed the individual rods three for three, two for two, five for five and the difference is measured in ounces per rod not pounds and if lighter is better why not play with the unwieghted men?
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One more thought, why did Tornado abandon ALUMINUM rods? It wasn't too long ago they installed them on the entry level Whirlwind when it fisrt came out. They were solid rods and light wieght.
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I agree on the weighted bats and resistance training to build strength....but I have played football and the collegiate level and not to blow myself but was also a 4 sport athlete in high school and all state accolades in 3. I agree with you partially,,,,,however where i disagree is that playing all the time on one weight...solid rods.......and then going to a totally different table is going to make the transition tougher.....I did swing 2 bats on the on deck circle...more to get loose and warm...but I never took 2 bats to the plate.....Golf is the same,,, resistance training systems build muslcles and strength, but when you practice for a tournament or just practice period.....you dont swing heavier clubs....I dont consider myself close minded...its just hard sometimes to communicate on these boards what you are really trying to get across.......sorry if I hurt anyones feelings or offended any old timers
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I don't have the answer to that question but if its a point your making as to why the solid rods are "BETTER" then you win....The solid rods are better....But as I originally stated early in the post It really depends on how good you wanna get....if you are just getting a table to enjoy with friends and family...get whatever table you like.....but if you are more serious like I consider myself..get what you would play on in tournaments.......I know of very few players..( I don't know too many), that are actually pros that don't have the hollow rods on their tables.....And I think most people on here with the acception of you and a few others that wouldn't reccomend a tournament 2000 if they were all a dollar. Hopefully I've made my point a little clearer...if not sorry
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I never said "all the time", I said practice, as in "training". And I never said not to practice on hollow bars. OK you're right, I'm the only one on earth who promotes solid rod high performance Tornado Table Soccer. Nobody likes solid rods but me. But I like them. What in the world would all of you do if the NEW MANAGEMENT at Tornado decided to switch to solid rods? Stranger things have already happened. Back when TS switched to get the DM crowd to buy thier "new" tables. Believe me there is at least one guy out there that says solid rod have more power- Billy Sumption.
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if they switched gmaster I would buy the new ones and put them on my table..or even if they changed the table I'd buy anew one......if that is the table that is to be used in tournaments and is the official table and tornado-valley-brunswick whatever they are called this month could get the local promoters all over the us to use them.......then I would have 2 tables and practice just the same.....but with the state foosball is in I really doubt that'll happen.....
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I am the only one that promotes solid rod high performance Tornado Table Soccer, this is true. But I practice on both. Years ago TS went to solid rods to get everybody to buy their "new" tables. Who is to say that the new Management (Brunswick) won't follow suit? They are much cheaper ($6.95, retail) and durable. I have weighed them. the difference is slight, only a few ounces per rod. When I was of the mind set that hollow rods were best and heavy bars sucked I asked Billy Sumption why the pros liked them. He said "more power." This follows from Newton's Force= Mass X Acceleration. Change the mass and you must change the force. All in all it doesn't matter to me that the vast majority of players prefer hollow bars. I feel they are all missing out on a great way to condition themselves and improve their stokes. Not to mention the price dfference to the players who aren't as serious as you. Under $60 for a set or over $60 for two? Again I suggest you weigh the two bars, use the three or whatever. I know for a fact it is way under a pound difference. And you are a weightlifter, right? Long ago I learned to get a thick skin on this issue so no feelings can ever be hurt. But I believe you are hurting your own chances to improve your game a lot over a differece in weight of less than one pound per rod. It was hard for me to give up my attitude that hollow bars were "faster". It took a lot of work to learn to play on solid bars and at first I hated it. But Bill was right solid bars have more power. Have you ever shot the foot off the goalie on Tornado? I have. But it was with a solid three row. I saved the man and foot to remind me Sumption was right, solid rods shoot with more power. One of these days I'll see you across the table and you can judge for yourself. Or better yet call me when you pass through on I-90 on you way to a tournament somewhere and I'll warm you up good. Any table any time, that 's my motto.
Oly 605-391-5958
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again, how much power you get has to do with the rod design more than if it is solid or hollow
breaking a man on the goalie 3 bar is not evidence it is annacdotal evidence...there are many other reasons that the man could have broken which I won't take the time to cover
what about a hollow rod that weighed more than a solid rod? weight is not the only factor which impacts what kind of power is generated
I am in favor of weighting a rod for practicing and/or strength conditioning but this thread has turned into something more like solid=good and hollow=bad or vice versa
I am not arguing for one or the other, I am just saying, there are too many varaibles to make blanket statements that one is absolutely better than the other...
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I agree I never said the hollow were better, but i did say it would benefit to practice on what you compete...I am a young player...not too young, but for where I play i'm young...I don't know whats better, but I do know from my experience competing in many sports, practicing on what you play is a benefit....I also think that making major changes to the tables isn't a good idea atleast right now...
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im not fer nor agin but there is something to playing on different tables and conditions especially in foosball...i can see how that would help you learn how to adjust quicker
i mean the best foosball player ever grew up on all kinds of tables and can play on anything and has one almost everything on every table for almost 10 years straight
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I hear what GM is saying and agree. The thing about a heavier bar is it let's you accelerate with the ball on a pull or push when you go with power. In practicing on my newly acquired table it was one of the first things I noticed, I was out of time with the ball due to to bar being light. I'll admit I'm as rusty as can be but I can deal with it. I don't think it is any more being rusty though as it is such a different animal to play on. Touchy! :o
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I wonder if anyone will make a graphite rod as in fishing or tennis equipment?
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Hey OM, I remember the early days of Tornado's revelutionary 3 man goalie and watching Todd L. sprinkle ROSIN on his shooting rods in order to slow down his stroke so he could hit the ball. I myself won the Denver City Singles Tournament by shooting an accidental pullshot that ALWAYS cut back where I didn't aim it. My opponent kept calling it "the Pro Cut". When I asked him why he said Todd and the other Denver pro pull shooters all shoot it. I thought to myself, they are missing their pull just like me. It must have something to do with the table? That particular Sunday Todd and Tom were in San Diego. I believe that was where they met Terry Moore for the first time. All of us old brown top Pros had to adapt to the new equipment if we wanted to play in Tornado events. Keep in mind Dynamo went through a phase where they made a clone of the Brown Top TS... with SOLID RODS. Yes, a solid rod Dynamo in the 80's was made for tournament use. I was visiting Doug Furry in Lexington when he showed me a box of rods in 1984, the first set of heavy hollow bars in the North. He explained they were a compromise of sorts due to the opinion of the manufacturer that they were convinced hollow bars lend to cabinet longevity. But the players wanted power, thus the compromise on heavy hollows. Johnny Lott had sent the bars to Furry to see if he liked them first before they went on with producing, I believe, the new Dynamo (not the clone) Brown top 11 man table with the assymetrical foot on a man designed by JL. There have been a lot of changes and there will be more but for a long time Tornado has been the Standard. Now the European game with 11 men has made a comeback, foosball is healthy again and the debates continue. Good posting everyone, and good foosing to you all.
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Interesting GM, in trying to hit my pull I noticed just that, back angling. Doug Furry,, I think he won the Nationals in '77 that I played in Minnesota. That was when the switch to Brown tops (TS) occurred. What a shock that was seeing those tables after owning and playing on blue tops and then not even knowing about the brown top tables. You'd have to have hands like a basketball player to ever shoot a snake on those big handles. Needless to say I didn't do well. They had a Porche Targa as first prize.
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Yes, that would be Super Singles in 1977 at the Radison South in Bloomington. Over 160 new Rosewood Blue Top TS tables in one ROOM. Doug won the car with a backpin pushshot with a roll from the FIVE ROW. When it was over I asked him to play me one game of singles for memory's sake. He skunked me in nothin' flat... one handed!
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Huh, I thought that was the tournament that TS changed over to Brown tops, maybe it was the next big tournament down at Lake Genieva,Wisconsin. I remember being miffed because I knew nothing about the change. So you were there at Bloomington. I was definitely a hacker, I learned alot about tournament foosball at that tournament. Do they have tournaments of comparable size now a days?
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Blue '77. Brown '78. Me too. I remember asking Johnny Lott how in %^$# do you catch a pass on these $%^#@* tables? Lake Geneva at the Playboy Hotel? In 1978 I turned pro by winning $200 at a tournament in Lake Geneva. Back then the mark was $400. If you made more than $400 in tour events you achieved "Pro Status". Ah, those were the daysBut foos is coming back strong. It isn't like it was, but improving all the time.