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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: Old Meister on December 04, 2007, 08:24:54 PM
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I'm having fits with my timing on the Tornado table seeing how I played on TS tables mostly until I gave it up 20 some years ago. I know rust plays into it but the only push shot that I can do is a palm shot. I can't get a wrist shot push to go at all. I do practice strokes but it seems that without the resistance of a heavier bar that there isn't any whip to it. I can smoke a palm shot about 20% of the time and that is a start but it really hurts that the wrist shot doesn't seem possible as an effective shot. I notice angles are much more difficult too. I wonder why they don't round the sides of the feet to make more shots possible and maybe shorten them also. Just ranting through my frustrations,,, :-*
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hang in there, there is much much much more rust than you know...I came off a 25 year lay off and it has taken me many more times longer than I expected to come back
Tornado does not lack for whip and power with wrist shots that I can assure you, so it is a mechanical thing so just keep at it and it will come around
if you could see how hard I can hit the ball at 50 you would know
plus, go watch video on you tube if you are still unsure or you can just totally trust me on this one
the hollow vs solid rod thing is mainly in your head...at the peak of my TS days I went to a Dynamo tourny playing on hollow rods for the first time and it was weird and took some adjusting but not more than the one tournament
just trust your body is capable of making the changes needed and evaluate if you personally have the power left in you...I have seen players my age, well from 40's and up, some who don't seem to loose much speed or power and others who seem to loose a lot not having to do anything with the table...you will want to get a grip on which you are because if you are a person who slows down, this may be impacting you as much as anything
have fun on the journey back, I have
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You're killing me,bbtuna. I don't think it's about slowing down but more about a change in mechanics. Without the ball I can make the motion with the speed and shape it always was but I leave the ball behind or something with the ball. But I agree with you, time and practice will fix it. Momma surprised me by wanting to play. She always played a finesse 3/4 speed style and while she noticed alot of the same things as I about the changes, she did do pretty good. My goal is to get my game back to where I have my weapons then maybe sometime in the future I can run into some of you guys without embarassing myself.
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sorry OM, I was just stating fact, it is nothing personal...we have a older pro-master in our area who slowed down, way way down, a number of years ago and his lateral speed and pop on the ball are, well, lets just say you could set up camp, build a fire, and roast some marshmellows before he moved from one side of the goal to the other...however, he is a very fiesty and tricky player and still beats all of us 90% of the time
you may not fall into that category and good for you if you haven't however a lot of people fall into what I call the American Idol syndrom...you know on AI when they do the intial interviews and these people come in who think they have a shot and they can NOT sing a note but they think they are really good...I find this true in almost every area of life...very difficult to self-evaluate accurately...if you dare, you should ask someone who you trust understands foosball to evaluate you...or not
anyway, if this isn't an issue for you, then terrific...part of the evaluation process for your game as it comes back is that 20 years does more to your physical game than you may think at least it did for me and others I have seen try and come back...mentally I remembered things but my body could not cash the check...in some ways I was amazed at what I could still do but there was so much lost it was overwhelming
with this in mind, I think the issues you are facing are more driven by your layoff than the rod style or weight...your body should have made adjustments by now if it was really just the weight or density difference in the rod...it hasn't made that transition because there are so many things it is trying to rediscover
well, this is all just my opinion based on my experience and others, yours of course could be totally unique but I doubt it...as time goes on, I would love to hear how you feel about my evaluation...either way, good to have you back and again, have fun on the Journey, it can be rewarding but like the first time around, it won't come without hard work
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Trust me on this one- buy a couple of TS two rows. Put them on the Tornado, just for a while. They are already drilled and tapped for wooden handle usage. For a perfect fit with the men they will have to be reamed out about 10 thou, the difference between .620" and .630". Then just shoot from goalie for a while. Then try the three row. Go back and forth between the solids and the hollows, it will ease the transititon to Tornado a bit. The most signifignant change is not the rod, but the shape of the foot of the man. Study the shape, as it acts in practice as TWO different feet whereas TS (and Others) act or feel like ONE. The foot of a Tornado man comes straight down as normal but then is curved like an elf's slipper. It is this curve you must come to know like the back of your hand in order to aim your shots. It took me about six months. See you in May? Across the Table and Welcome Back OM.
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if you keep moving back and forth from solid rod to hollow rod on Tornado then yes, you will find yourself over pulling and such on the hollow rods...however, if you hadn't played on a solid rod in 20 years and started back up with hollow only, it should not throw you off for an extend period of time
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I disagee. I know better. Better to agree to disagree than to be disagreeable. Since I'm the only one on the planet with extensive experience with this issue from a personal viewpoint I am entitled to believe that solid rod Tornado foosball has a benificial effect on the hollow rod game. I haven't found one person who likes solid rod Tornado foosball besides me. OM are you there? I dare you to try it, if only for a while. I think I'll start throwing the bare knuckle solid rod championship once a year and see who shows up. Charles, you are the fisrt to be invited!
Happy Foosing,
Oly 605-391-5958
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Ok you old farts. Who are you guys and whats your names? Have I ever met any of you? GM is exactly right about the round on the foot. For the life of me I play hell catching a ball off the face of the man. That round part has very little sweet spot where you can pin the ball.
It took me 3 yrs to become competitive again after a 17 yr lay off. I think it is harder to relearn and remove old technique than it is to start from scratch. I keep try *** that use to work but doesn't any more >:(
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Ed,
I am with you on come back thing, that is about as long as I have been back after 25 years off however I am very glad I had the background I did it has helped but relearning and learning new as been a bear...I would hate to start at my age and try and learn everything from scratch with no history or physical background to draw on...
I am better now than in the old days in every way I can measure except my lateral speed isn't quite as good and I can't get the same kind of consistency I did when I was young...i can physically do everything I did then, and more, but can't execute the basic stuff 18-19 times out of 20 like I could when I was young...I kept thinking this would come around but I have given up on that
the curve on the mans foot is enough to want to make me kill somebody...I shoot a backpin seriously and it is a pain to deal with it all the time...plus, it is the reason you can't hit accurate angles for kicks and banks....for the life of me, I can't understand why Tornado won't redeisgn the foot to flaten that surface...I guess they would have an initial cost for a mold but after that, it would not cost them a thing
the other thing I don't understand why they don't change, and this would not cost them anything extra at all, is to make the strip on the side a little thinner...like Mark Murrell does when he replaces them...still works to keep the ball off the wall but doesn't make the ball jump into the air
these two very minor changes would revolutionize the game on Tornado
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"Who ARE those guys?" Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, circa 1969. Charles, again I disagree. The main reason bank shots fly up is NOT the side strips. Pool shooters ( I am one) shoot the cue ball down into the slate in order to "jump shoot" over a ball that is in the way of the object ball. Same action on a lot of Tornado bank shots. TS tables had a 3/8" Masonite flexible playfiield kinda like a Pro wrestling or boxing floor. The ball does not fly as easily on this kind of a set up. Go to a pool hall and find a Pro and have him demonstrate the jump.The inflexible 3/4" MDF playfield is the main reason the ball flies up. It plays a lot like slate. The shape of the foot is another thing. It resluts in two completely separate aim points. I discovered this after shots where I thought to myself " I diddn't aim that there, why does it go there?" the answer is that Tornado is an idiosycratic table not designed for bank shots. Even if they would fly lower, the extra men on the goalie intercept a lot of them. Not to mention the lack of solid rods? With practice a guy can reasonably expect to hit a few banks. My favorite is with the end guys on the five row. Seems to be open on the goalie a lot by going between the end man and the goalie instesd of being blocked by the end guy. Once in awhile you get a wide open 2 row bank. My rule on Tornado is hit the bank shots half hard if at all. That way the ball stays low and has a better chance of being on goal. But why bother on Tornado, I just shoot the push hard as I want from back and slop it in.
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GM,
Mark Murrell has substituted the current strip on his custom tables with a thinner strip and has all but eliminated the ball jumping off the table so this really isn't a debate or opinion, it is a fact - he made NO modifcations to the playfield, the playing figure's foot design, the ball, or the rod type
a slicker ball will help keep the ball down...my ability to hit accurate banks which stay down on the table increase with slicker balls...Todd Loffredo has a good explanation for this after abusing people with banks last year at one of the tournaments which had "slick" balls...fuzzy the ball, the more the "jump"
Early tornado with hollow rods and hard thick surface were able to do banks until they changed the foot design which was done by someone inside who wanted to eliminate banks
Dynamo's I played on in the late 70's were also hollow rods, hard surface (much harder than Tornado today), and you could do banks with that table as well
I made the ball jump using solid rods on TS and can very easily make a ball just from my 2 and hit the 3 rod directly in front of me or the 5 rod with my left hand and hit the 5 rod accross from me but this has more to do with technique than the table
with all that said, I will admit, it was much easier to make the Dynamo table ball jump up than it was the TS
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by the way, Johnny Lott likes the solid rod design as well and on the Medalist table he designed and on the one he is working on now, both use a solid rod...slightly smaller diamiter than the Tornado and they weigh almost the same amount
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Go figure, Johnny Lott is leading the way in foosball once again. I still disagree on the side strip issue and I have made quite a few of them myself, 11/16" from white vertical grade laminate. In addition I have built 9 Tornado clones by hand from scratch all with 3/4" MDF playfields and non of them bank particularly well. As for the Dynamo brown top with the bent up corners, they did bank well as it was the thinner playfield, also the man was the first assymetrical foot but it was straight, not curved on front like the Tornado modern. If anyone will ever perfect a players' table it will be JL. Early Tornado 11 man tables were tempered glass and very stiff also and not known for the bank. I'm sicking to my guns on this, a flexible playfield makes a good banking table, along with the right foot and ball. I know others have tried to improve Tornado bank shooting but the side strips are minor issue in the overall disscusion. Somebody get Johnny on the forum and see what he says?
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Bbtuna's telling me I might be slowmo in my old age (53) and Gm tells me to mix it up heavy and light rods. Well fellers, I'm not built to be slow. And I view the Tornados as a problem to be solved. I just don't like the fact that they(Tornado) made these tables to cater to one shot, the snake, and left the rest of it so so for other shots. So I will get some of what I did back and I will have to learn the snake. I will because I never saw a shot I didn't master. I lived for that and would throw the kitchen sink at you in a game. I really appreciate the advice though. Bbtuna, you lit a fire under me inferring I might have that American idol thing going on. I made the best player I ever met eat a shot I can still do on this table, it's just harder and less reliable, for now. GM, Yes I would like to try heavy rods but then again would I then not be learning these tables? Really guys I do totally appreciate your taking time to give me your thoughts and when I'm ready I'd dearly love to play you.
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OM,
any time is the right time...play, play, play...it doesn't matter who or where you are at in your redevelopment...I love playing people who love to play at any level, beginner or pro-master...maybe someday we will all meet and we could whack the ball around, trash talk, and have a few drinks
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GM,
you sound like you have some good experience with tables building and reconfiguring
however, Mark Murrell is the resident expert on Tornado...he is an engineer with creative talent and access to materials...
again, this isn't up for debate, it is already proven...I don't know how the strips you used varied from his but I can tell you he all but eliminated the ball jumping up and off the table
I am not debating with you the physics of how the table surface interacts with the ball...it very well may do what you say, I am not an engineer or expert in physics and don't have any data to agree or disagree with your statements on that subject
I do have data to back up the strip discussion so I will stand my ground on that front
however, I 100% agree with the foot of the man and can tell you from much personal experience backed by imperical evidence from others, that that stupid curved foot creates all kinds of odd nearly uncontrollable reactions
we will just have to agree to disagree on the rods..too many variables to set a fair comparrison
The basic functional quirks of the Tornado we have today were made before the Rollover was discoverd as a serious tournament shot - this means the Tornado was not designed for one shot...now it was designed I understand, to kill banks and that design plan worked...as a by product, the foot design caters to the brush pass which is one of the main reasons it is so popular today (besides that it works)
the early Tornado before the major design changes we live with today, I am told by those who were there and who love banks, that it banked very well
oh well, regardless, we have a table with some shortcomings which could be addressed with some reengineering but I am afarid there is no interest by corporate VB to make the best table in the world
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I have gotten to know Johnny Lott very well over the past 2 years and have intimate knowledge about his table design and philosophy...if he can pull off what he is trying to do, you will love his table
1 man goalie
solid rods
much better foot design on the man
indistructable goal mouth
a totally unique table surface design (what is painted on there) that will help beginners learn shots and set up defenses much quicker and I think veterans will like it as well
no side strips
large metal leveler feet
I agree with 99% of his design and will live with what I don't agree with to get the benifit of the rest...I guess, the only thing I don't agree with his that the goal mouth is smaller than Tornado and the man's foot is like an 1/8 inch wider...I am okay with the foot being wider, this is meant to put more weight in the foot and make it easier for beginner to start playing...however, I don't think the goal should be shortened...I think the defensive and offensive battle that goes on today is a good balance and this tips the balance in favor of the defense.
the Medalist, which was to be the Legend originally, is almost everything Johnny wanted and people have played on this table and you can bank to your hearts content (with MDF play surface)
Johnny learned a few things during that table design and will incorporate a few of those in the table he is working on now
I just hope he can get full funding and control the table design 100%...it could revolutionize the game today
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The basic functional quirks of the Tornado we have today were made before the Rollover was discoverd as a serious tournament shot - this means the Tornado was not designed for one shot...now it was designed I understand, to kill banks and that design plan worked...as a by product, the foot design caters to the brush pass which is one of the main reasons it is so popular today (besides that it works)
the early Tornado before the major design changes we live with today, I am told by those who were there and who love banks, that it banked very well
oh well, regardless, we have a table with some shortcomings which could be addressed with some reengineering but I am afarid there is no interest by corporate VB to make the best table in the world
I was there and the design change of the man was not intended to kill banks. LOL I had many discussions with Ed McCloud before he changed the design of the man, and that never entered into the equation. McCloud seriously thought that his new design would improve the back-pin. He had a huge drawing of the design on a drafting board in is office. He drew the man in 5 minute intervals as if in motion. He really thought it would be the perfect man to shoot a back-pin. Like I said I was there.
I also introduced Ed McCloud to Brian Venton at Wilsonart, an gave McCloud my design for the custom printed HPL playing surface on 3/4" MDF. I showed him how to build the boxes joinery to make it less expensive, better and easier to assemble. I also invented the 3-man goalie, and showed McCloud the change in the bearing placement to allow the ball to be played off the back wall when trap against it. I designed the side strip as well. Originally it was 1 3/16" white pvc edgebanding that was split down the middle. Without the side strip you would break the man when you trapped the ball hard against the wall. Unfortunetly it was me that suggested to McClooud he radius the edges of the paddle to keep the man from tearing chunks out of the balls. I never would have thought that one change would have had such a negative effect. I guess there is probably a 1500 different tour players that quite because they could no longer shoot a straight angle. For that I am truly sorry. Any way, like I said I was there.
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Johnny Lott's table sounds like a 'Heavy Metal Deutcher Meister', I love it! With Premier pushing a TS type table and Lott's table it sounds like Tornado better sit up and pay attention. GM's observations on give in the play surface ring true with me as I also play pool and understand the concept he states. It probably is both the strip and the give in the bed. The bed could be addressed with a double layered bed with a 'give' layer between like a basketball court. Edgeer, why didn't Tornado just keep going on design tweaking until the product addressed all the problems? Considering the times, I could see why such a change would be the final straw for maturing people who saw their sport slowly going a way and then the new table so limited. All while families to be raised and such. But look now, The Boomers are done with alot of that and are retireing or getting close. Now they want to have fun. And they want to introduce their families to what was a big thing for them.THERE'S your new/old market! But you better give them what they want. They need to be able to do their old shots. Johnny Lott is on to something from the discription of his table. I don't think my rants are mine alone. I think this is something that should be paid attention to in order for this sport to grow.
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so Ed, basically you are saying you ruined the table >:( I appreciate your attempt to help the backpin but wow, that went wrong and it killed angles at the same time...double the pleasure...dude, I am going to have to reconcile this, it will take me some time to get over this devastating news :(
why haven't you shared this on the Foosball Board I think I have read every post on this subject for nearly 3 years and this has come up many many times
I don't doubt you but there are a lot of people who claim to have first hand personal experience with all this and I have heard of others claiming certain design decisions...I am not asking you to defend your comments, I am just commenting that as an outsider, it is difficult to piece together the history on all this
love you man, glad you are over here participating, don't let my comments mean anything...i will get over the shock of it all being a back pin shooter and all... :'(
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The shape of the paddle was all Ed McCloud's idea. I Ed Geer suggested to McCloud he ease the edge just a little, say like a 1/64" Radius. When he made the molds he used a much bigger radius. I have shared this several times on the old ezboard, even had it in my profile, but all that was lost.
By the way, there isn't a sole on earth that can say McCloud intentially tried to eliminate the bank shot, because it just isn't true. McCloud was familiar with popular shots being used on TS at the time and his goal was to design a man that would do them better. McCloud would never do anything to run off a customer. It was a major decision for McCloud to change the man design back in 1981. I gave my table designs to him in 1981 and he didn't start building the 3-man goal/HPL surface tables until late in 1982. It was a big decision to tell all his route customers thier tables where going to be obsolete. McCloud decided to waite and put the new man design on the radiacally different 3-man goalie table in 1983. The 1983 nationals was the first on the new 3-man goalie tables. There was such a difference in the way the new table played that was totally different than the tables he had out on route, he knew it would require that all those old tables be replaced. It is that same mentallity that prevents Valley from changing the man design today. If they change the man design today all those tables out on location and in the warehouse become obsolete.
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Here is a letter I posted once on ezboard.
From: Edmund Geer
Some twenty-six years ago I gave Ed McCloud designs on cabinet construction that eliminated the corner ramps by introducing the 3-man goalie and most importantly, my contact at Wilson-Art on the custom laminating process of the playing field. I liked McCloud, even though he could be an egotistic SOB sometimes, to my knowledge he never claimed any ownership of my innovations. Here is brief history of how I came to recruit the 13th man.
I learned to play foosball when I was in High school. I played pretty seriously for about 5yrs and eventually won a National Championship as a novice in the early 80's. After reflecting on the state of things, I stopped playing foosball in 1983 to focus my attention on my family, education and job. I now have a degree from TCU and hold a CPA license. My wife and I have a successful business that allows me to enjoy the game of foosball once more.
Building the first table with a 3-man goalie and a high-pressure laminate (HLP) playing surface is my claim to fame as far as foosball goes. These two ideas came out of necessity. In 1980 I bought a used Dynamo that had new Tornado rods and men. The problem was the hole was huge. I was working as a furniture maker in my uncle’s shop at the time. My plan was to make a new table based on Tornado dimensions using the glass top and corners from the old table. After I had dismantled the old table I placed the glass top against the wall in the shop. As it turned out the glass fell and broke into literally 1 million pieces. Pricing a replacement, I found the cost to be around $85, which I didn't have. In a pinch, I did have some scrap lime green Nevamar HPL and decided it would have to do for the playing field.
In April of 1981, I got a job at General Dynamics and decided to leave my uncles employment. I asked his permission to leave the table in his shop until I could finish it. Well a few days turned into a few weeks until finally my uncle loss patience a told me to get the table out of his shop. During this time I had been contemplating how to put the corners into the table. I couldn't find any easy way to do it and with my uncle harassing me to finish the table, I decided to forgo the corners altogether and buy four extra men to go where the metal stops where. Luckily, I had not drilled the holes for the bushings. Upon laying out the rod and man for the goalie, I discovered the goalie rod had to be moved back toward the back wall in order for the toe of the man to reach the top of a ball pinned against the wall. With that I finished the table and got it out of my uncles shop.
I was amazed how well the table played. The HPL over MDF playing field was so smooth, and the ball rolled perfectly straight, side to side, corner to corner. That was certainly something new to those of us who had been playing on glass top tables. Well, I used the table to practice and even considered the possibility of building the table commercially. At the time Ed McCloud’s company was in a slump. McCloud had dealers across the nation and was only building 5 to 10 tables a month he was also talking about possible bankruptcy. I analyzed the economics and determined it not feasible (the bank wouldn’t loan me the money) to market my table. I decided I had neither the resources nor desire necessary to successfully market a foosball table. At the next Tornado Nationals, I sat with McCloud and gave my ideas to him on the back of an envelope and he in turned incorporated them into the table we play on today. Any way, that’s the story of how that 13th man got on the team. Hope you enjoyed.
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Ed that was good...that does sound familiar...good story...I know if I owned a foosball business I would try and have at these elements...
1. A Research and Development department driven by creative chemistry/engineering...this department would study new materials and designs and study how they interact compared to current designs and materials. The idea is to find the best combination of surface, ball, man, inside walls, leg design, etc.
2. A cost no object table where the best engineering and materials were used to design the best table possible. The intent is to find the best materials and engineering and to see what of that can trickle down to lower models like happens in high-end audio.
3. Establish table standards (demensions) which are well documented and distributed with the goal of establishing a world wide standard for tournament play.
4. Create a "tournament" table...I would want base of this table as the standard coin-op but with some subtle important differences.
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oh yea, and after Ed M realized the foot design ruined a good portion of the game, wy didn't he redesign the foot or go back to the old one until he could?
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oh yea, and after Ed M realized the foot design ruined a good portion of the game, wy didn't he redesign the foot or go back to the old one until he could?
I couldn't really say, maybe it was such an ordeal to make the change in the first place. I don't think McCloud would scrap his baby. McCloud's distributors and vendors already had to buy into the new design once, changing it again could have forced them to Dynamo in mass.
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Man it is very interesting reading all of this....I always enjoy reading these type of posts...IMO there is one thing more improtant than changing the design of the tables and that getting younger players involved....with the downfall of local arcades and video games being played at home on the new ps and x box systems the game is only known for the most part by players that were around in the 70s and 80s not in the past 20 years.....without younger players there will be no game..I know there are some people doing some great things at Youth clubs etc...but they are few and far between....and on another page...where I play in central florida...Orlando...Most and I mean Most of the local players that play in tournaments here are complete assholes and do not welcome newbies at all.....I know this may be different elsewhere but boy what a turnoff....jmo
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The key to the push shot is the position of the ball before you take the shot. It needs to be slightly behind the center of the rod (away from the goal). This way you get a longer follow-through on the ball as you flick your wrist (like revving a motorcycle - only much faster).
I find that it helps when your forearm is more perpendicular to the handle, rather than parallel to the handle.
Try it out.
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ndefreitas, That is how I do my palm push but last night I finally got my wrist shot going and actually I have to start it slightly in front of the bar(closer to the goal) to get the nice hook on the shape of the shot. I realized that bbtuna was right in that my muscles just weren't programmed for it even though my brain remembered the feel of it. I'm actually sore but more and more of my shots are working. I woke up in the middle of the night and then started thinking about shots and counter shots, do you ever have that happen? My 5 bar is coming along pretty good too. I'm getting there and already learning some new stuff due to the way the table plays.
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LOL
That happened to me in the Spring - been foosin ever since.
Check out the movies section on this site (http://www.njfoosball.com/movies/movies.htm) - it's got some nice 5-bar passing.
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While this might be a bit embarrassing I think my lingo might not be the same as modern lingo, or this is what I'm beginning to think. In my area of N. Wisconsin we referred to the open handed shot as a palm shot while the closed handed shot as a wrist shot. Is this correct in today's lingo?
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I think so. Fredrico shoots a open handed palm wrist shot :) Open handed is called a Euro-shot. A pull is a wrist shot. We use to call Euro's biker shots or flap jacks. LOL
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So what do you call a close handed push shot? And why is it so much harder to hit on these Tornados than the TS tables?
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It's probably the face of the man. On older style men including TS, the face was textured all the way up. On Tornado the horizontal groves stop on the upper part of the flat to help prevent stubbing the ball. McCloud hand carved prototypes where the texture was all the way up the face. The guys there in the shop complained the men caused them to hurt there wrist because of stubbing the ball and that it took all the power out of there pull shot. I cant remember if any plastic production men were ever made with 100% textured faces. But McCloud eventually listened to his employees and others and eliminated them. I think Murray told me he had a complete collection of men. When I see him again I will ask him.
As for why it is harder?
I beleave to shoot a good push you need a larger sweet spot to be able to square and cut back on the ball. The elimation to the texture on the face makes the sweet spot narrower than on TS. If you swing back shallow you can't pinch the ball on the follow through. The ball squirts out, sliding on the vertical groves not allowing you to put any power in your shot. It also makes cut-backs on the push really hard unless you pitch the ball way back on your follow through. It can be done but it is very difficult.
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That makes sense and pretty much describes what I notice in trying to do the shot. Well it's like all those other table types, it has it's strengths and it's shortcomings. I'll just have to play with what I can do on it but I sure will miss not having that weapon. Thanks