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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: chance37 on March 15, 2008, 03:02:04 PM
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Just curious how you all feel about the payouts at the big events. I think that unless you are pro, or semi-pro you should only win trophies-jackets-entry fees to next tournament. I cant think of any other sports where an amateur gets money especially the money like they put up at the bigger events. I would think that the more money you make as a pro would be more incentive to be pro. Rookie doubles payout is 1000 and pro is 2000...JMO...By the way I am a beginner been lpaqying for 2 years...you an have the money for now....give me the trophies...
chance
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I think there`s to many rankings rookie should be the lowest then novice pro master thats it then more money could go the top winners brackets trophies should go down to 5th place also you need some insentive to get more players the money just is`nt there anymore.
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What ever makes the turnout better.
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I dont have the answer for turnout, but I see all the patouts for the eventsand its pretty evenly distributed.....I also see the "rookie" level guys that play here in c. fla. and they have been playing forever and a day and can hold there own against a lot of pros. They enjoy the tournaments because winning rookie is usually not too tough....maybe im off topic there but its monday morning and my mind is scattered....Pay the Pros cash and give the amateurs and rooks trophies and tables....To get to play against the pros is rewarding enough...
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I have never been to a tournament before, but I really do want to see the sport grow a lot. I think one major problem is that whenever I tell anyone i'm going to play in a foosball tournament next month people laugh like I'm joking. Either way I am bringing 5 or 6 other rookies/non tournament players with me to the tournament. Coming from my perspective I am curious as to how the better players will treat us. Honestly if we get to experience the atmosphere of the tourney and have a good time there is no way we will be kept away from tournaments, i'm worried that it won't be a great time for everyone - maybe have people looking down on "rookies" and then 7 new players would be out of the tournament scene forever. Also I would rather win a table than money, if I win money i'll buy a table. so I could be wrong here, but in short, one problem may not be recruiting rookies but rather getting them to keep playing...
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when i went to my first tournamentthe overall reception was pretty good...buyt after a few weeks you will see who the assholes really are. And i do have to say newbies arent always treated like they should. But you should play because you love to play not because you like the companionship of the ther vets. I play them to learn from them and your only as good as your competition so the more I play against them the better im getting and the better it will feel real soon when i wipe the floor witht their asses......This past draw I placed in the money for the first time and beat several of the guys that used to sigh when they drew my name..We lost our first match then went all the way throguhthe losers bracket and one the first match of the final but couldnt double dip them lost last match 3rd game......The biggest a hole in town that Ive almost come to fists with before congratulated me and couldn't believe how far ive come in a year....thats why I play...bitter sweet
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When you say you've never been to a tournament, but you're bringing a bunch of guys - I guess you mean one of the larger events - maybe a 'state' tournament. If so, six or seven new beginners/rookies will hardly be noticed except by the other beginners/rookies you play - though they'll be greatly appreciated by the promoter.
If you show up at a local DYP with five or six friends who've never played tournament foosball, the reactions could be varied - because anyone would prefer to play with an experienced player. I think the best way for a newbie to be accepted is to show up all the time, learn from each encounter and improve. Playing the same guys all the time can be good if they have different shots and styles. It'll give you a solid foundation. Then play out of town at DYP's and 'brings'. Get used to the feeling of playing an 'away' event; it can really make you execute your best.
Soon you'll be at KY State about to play 60 other Rookies - one after the other.
I recommend going to the larger tournaments as soon as you can and as often as you can. As everyone says - you'll learn more in one weekend than a month of staying home and practicing. Watch the great and good players, watch the women players, watch the newbies. Steal their secrets.
Good luck - Paul
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I feel that if you stop paying out Rookies, then the sport will decline even more.
With the cost of traveling now-a-days plus the cost of entries, food, hotel, etc. if you go to any descent sized tournament you are looking at a minimum of about a $500 trip and if you go to a major then probably a $1,000 trip. Spending that kind of cash and then not being able to win just a fraction of it back will not make alot of Rookies interested in traveling to play foosball.
No Rookies attending tournaments = lower pay-outs for the upper ranks
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how many rookies win 500? As far as paying for a trip isnt that the whole idea of attending a tournament its a trip. A chance to get out of town and test your skills against others. See old friends and have a good time while competiting. Its a competition menaing the best man or woman or teams win. But spreading out the winnings to rookies the same as a Pro or even close to what the pros win to me is ridiculous. I realize we dont agree on this but the Pro payouts should be considerably higher than rookies and newbies. I guess I think differently than others but at my level of play I dont care about the cash. It would have to be a hell of a lot more money just to subsidize me missing 2 days at work on the weekend. The trip cost isnt my concern its the missing work cost that I have to sacrifice. And I will gladly give up a weekend every now and then for a chance to play the best...
I dont think that the money put up for winning is the main incentive that gets rookies to show, or atleast not myself...
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I will say up front that I believe that the practice of giving significant payouts to lower ranks has done serious damage to the sport of foosball. Now "getting paid" has become an expectation. It's also removed a great deal of incentive to move up. There seems to be never-ending complaints decrying all those "sandbaggers" and people that have been playing (and often cleaning up!) in Rookie/Am. events... and doing it for years. Where do you think that comes from?
A World Championships win would be the only circumstance I can see where a larger dollar reward would be fitting.
If you play the sport of foosball, play to win. Stop worrying about the money. Finally, if you have to worry about winning money to recoup your expenses, you shouldn't be "touring" in the first place.
If it's a recreational activity for you... and for most that's the case... a league might be a better fit.
BA
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something needs to be done, there needs to be an incentive to keep working at it...the lower ranks need to "earn" their way to payday just like in any other sport where there are non-pros and pros...I would venture an educated guess which says that higher than 95% of people playing don't make enough to pay for all the costs associated with a tournament...so, you are just talking about degree of loss or cost depending on how you want to think about it
I think the Non-Pro's have to have incentives and recognition enough to keep them motivated and moving along while they are gaining points - some of those would be trophies, packages, jackets, jewlery, etc but also, there is a motivation to move through your lower rank points as quickly as possible so you can get to the "Pro" status which by its normal use in sports means "paid" ... I am not saying no money for non-pros but I am saying low money
see my next posts for tournament break out ideas...these ideas would also eliminate conflicts, provide plenty of table time, and highlight the final four in main events
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These are the Main Events"...play total two main events (one doubles and one singles)...play rank or higher
Amateur 10% of total purse and Pro 90% of total purse
Amateur (10%) – pays for trophies and payouts for Expert
a beginner can not enter singles in Beginner, Novice, and Expert...pick one - a Beginner could pick Beginner Singles and Expert doubles or Novice Doubles and Expert Singles but not both…one singles, one doubles your level or higher
Beginner (0-1150 points):
Doubles and Singles - 1st through 6th place Ribbon/medals - free entry coupons for future tournament in winning event (singles or doubles)
Novice (1151-1500):
Doubles and Singles - 1st to 3rd place trophies 4th – 6th place ribbon/medals - packages - free entry coupons for future tournament in winning event
Expert (1501-2000):
Doubles and Singles – money breakdown 25% doubles 75% singles – 1st to 5th place trophies – coupons/packages
Amateur Women (0-2000):
Doubles and Singles – 1st to 5th place Ribbon/medals - packages - free entry coupons for future tournament in winning event
Pro (90%)
Pro (2001- 2400):
30% of the 90% (money breakdown 25% doubles 75% singles)
Doubles and Singles – 1st to 5th place trophies - packages - free entry coupons for future tournament in winning event
Pro Master (2401 and up):
65% of the 90% (money breakdown 25% doubles 75% singles)
Doubles and Singles – 1st to 5th place trophies – coupons/packages
Pro Women (2001— and up):
5% of the 90%
Doubles and Singles – 1st to 5th place trophies - packages - free entry coupons for future tournament in winning event
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I am not sure how paying cash to the lower ranks hurts the game if anything it should help. If I win enough cash to cover my trip I would use that money to go to more foosball events. Also if paying cash to lower events brings out more foosers the total pot will grow and more cash will go to the Pros. I guess we need some promoters to answer some of these questions and tell us how paying out to lower ranks affects there turn out.
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brad and tuna im on the page with you....you see me im right there........no over there.....I agree 100%.........This alone isnt going to spark attendance to great levels, but itll help with the sandbaggers....A sponsorship or two couldnt hurt either.....JMO
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I know I wouldn't want to pay to play in any tournament of anything(not just foosball) against other guys that are paying to play in a tournament knowing that both of our money is going to go to someone who wins a tournament that we aren't part of... I think if there is any sponsorship money or revenue generated in any other way definately put it towards the pro players, but as far as being a rookie goes don't make them pay into a different pot or they wont come. I am not saying the reason I play is to win money, but would rather not attend if the money I am putting up is going to support competitions I am not in.
Another thing that I am thinking about it using rankings in a better way. I think if anyone wins a rookie or novice or amatuer tournament they should automatically be moved up a level. Could there be a system that every foosball tournament is registered to the same points system (ITSF maybe?) so that anyone who plays in a tournament is registered in some sort of foosball database and cant keep entering rookie/amature tournaments?
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1st, more cash for everyone would always be better but the problem is, there isn't enough cash to go around
2nd, it hurts the sport (in its present condition, because the lower rank payouts are high enough to keep people from wanting to move up and the Pro payouts (non-pro master) are so low know one wants to move to Pro...only a select few are genuinely capable of winning in Pro-master
so, the idea is to make lower ranks non-Pro or Amateur...like in other sports...make the money available in Pro so people attempt to plow their way through the Amateur ranks so they can get to where the money is
Amateur (our current lower rank - this includes me) needs to play foosball as a hobby where we get trophies, recognition, table time, and fun or we play "serious" and work hard to learn and move through ranks in which case we get all the same things the recreational player gets but we have a motive to keep moving...in both cases, the Amateur pays - the hobbiest pays to play and have fun (and they may learn and advance too) and the serious player plays to learn and advance (and they may have fun on the side)
the reason the current method has hurt things is because lower ranks, people who should be "Amateur" (as defined in most other sports in America) expect to make real money...some promoter(s) along the way thought the way to draw lower ranks, thus bankroll the sport, is to increase payouts...along with that thought or close on its heals was we will "bundle" and show a savings from buying ala carte and then include tons of events so people feel like they are getting their money's worth...oh, and wouldn't it be another great draw if the lower rank players could play with the legends? I know, we will let lower rank players play in everything...that way they will feel like they are getting even more money and they won't be any real threat to the high rank players so they won't care...yea, thats the ticket
now we have conflicts at every turn, matches being called at 2am in the morning and again at 9am or 10am the next day, not nearly enough money to go around, no one wants to turn pro except the occasional shooting star for whom the Pro is a brief pause on their way to the top (Ryan Moore being the most recent example)...only young people with no life (no offense meant to them) and can live sleeping on someone's floor and eating a bag of Cheetos a day can play all the tournaments
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Will,
you are illistrating the problem...see, you think of this sport as our money (our entry fees) verses their entry fees
you see it this way because that is the only way it has ever been for you...you may have heard or considered another way but you have never actually experienced another way becaue in foosball there is not other way
I am asking for people to try and see this differently...break out of the paradigm you have been in...the way it is now doesn't work so we can't continue using the same methods and expect different results
think of the sport as Amateur and Pro...Amateur plays to grow, get recognition, and/or for fun...the Pro plays to make money
think of the entry fees as money that pays for tournament you are attending (all the costs associated with it which includes but is not limited to payouts)...think of the entry fees as a cost for learning...think of the entry fee as fertilization for the overall game...think of the tournament costs overall as your chance to travel, have fun, and meet people
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I'm going to lay out my "If I Were King" scenario for Professional Foosball. This'll be a bit scattershot, so try and follow along. And I haven't thought out ALL the details so feel free to offer ideas.
RATINGS
Retain the current RATING categories if you like, but
1) Rookie, henceforth known as Amateurs play for hardware only... Trophies, jackets or the occasional table. They have no RANKING.
2) Semi Pro will become Expert and may possibly play for some cash... perhaps entry fee amount times X. We can discuss this one. :D SP also has no RANKING. (I haven't settled yet on how to determine when a player would become SP, but a mid-level rating is a must to clear out the Amateur rating.
3) Then of course, you have Pro. Only Pros have a RANKING, which is necessary for seeding purposes.
Ratings are based on $$'s won. (Money GOOD, points BAD!) This seems to be the primary concern of today's players... "What will it cost me and how much can I win?
RANKINGS
1) A ranking is given when a player achieves Pro Status. Pro Status is achieved when the player's winnings exceed a given dollar amount.
2) Only money that was won in OPEN events counts toward a player's status.
MONEY
Most (all?) entry fee money goes towards Open events. Prize money is then distributed deeeeep into the chart.
So... if players want to play but don't want to move up in rating, they can continue to compete in the lower events. As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a definite way to get a player from Amateur to Expert.
In brief, that's it. I fully admit I don't have all the details worked out but I can't think of EVERYTHING!!. I also admit that I am confident this would never fly with your average player.
Oh... I'd also require a dresscode! ;D
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even with these changes, which I think in the long run would improve the health of the game, the motivation of the players moving up, and improve the tournament experience by almost totally eliminating conflicts...I have sat waiting for over 8 hours for a match to be called and it was 1:30am and then they decided no more matches tonight, see you at 9am when the doors open tormorrow
that is insane, it is worst than bush league...this is incompetence...in an attempt to please everyone, they (the historical they, no one in particular) have made everyone miserable
but anyway, even with these changes, the tournament game will never be right unless tournaments get money outside of entry fees
but even if there was big time sponsorship I would say, make Amateur (unpaid) and Pro (paid)
you can play in one or the other in doubles and singles but not both...you can play your rank and higher...you pick...singles (Pro or Amateur) or doubles (Pro or Amateur)
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Brad, we are close...here is how what I proposed would have looked at Worlds with a 100k payout
Leave point system - Points in ()
$100,000
Amateur $10,000 in payouts (all in Expert)
Beginner (0-1150 points):
ribbons and packages
Novice (1151-1500):
trophies and packages
Expert (1501-2000) $10,000: (or semi-pro...almost pro)
Doubles $2500
Singles $7500
Amateur Women (0-2000):
Doubles and Singles – Ribbon/medals - packages
Pro (90%) $90,000 in payouts
Pro (2001- 2400): $27,000
Doubles - $6,750
Singles – $20,250
Pro Master (2401 and up): $58,500
Doubles - $14,625
Singles - $43,875
Pro Women (2001— and up): $4,500
Doubles - Trophies
Singles - $4,500
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more detail on tournament structure
2 main divisions – Amateur and Pro
• Play up ranks but not the other way around
• 10% (Amateur) - 90% (Pro) split (trophy and medals come out of this figure)
• Players can play one or the other but not both (this will eliminate most conflicts which is what causes tournaments to run so long/late)
• Everything is ala carte and each event fee includes table/registration fee (so there is no separate fee)
• You can buy a package – the package would include 2 main events (one singles, one doubles) and as many “Specialty Events” as you are eligible for
• AmateurWomen…women can play in men’s events but not the other way around but they have to choose one or the other… ProWomen can play men or women events
• Doubles starts 10am Sat and plays down to final 4 teams – semi-finals and finals Sunday start 10 am – doubles first, then singles
• Singles start at round of 16 or at 4pm whichever comes first
• No main event called past 10:15 pm
Specialty Events:
- Not specific to Amateur or Pro
- Trophies 1-3 place only (except Free DYP’s where only first place gets a trophy)
- Specialty Events could include Goalie Wars, FSO, 4/4, 2 ball, SpeedBall, Free Style (ball control event) , BullEye (accuracy event), Aerial Wars, Up to 1 Free DYP per day, Pro-Mixed, etc
- All players not still completing in main events (so there is no main event conflict) are auto registered for Specialty Events and Free DYP
- If you go ala carte (no package) but want into the Specialty, Events would be $20-$50 each depending on tournament size and event popularity
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2nd, it hurts the sport (in its present condition, because the lower rank payouts are high enough to keep people from wanting to move up and the Pro
If you win cash in the lower events you will gain points and will move up if you want to or not. I am not sure that making players want to trun Pro will grow the player base. I would love it if you could make a good living playing foosball at the pro level but for this to happen we would have to have huge payouts compared to what we have now. The only way to do this is to have more rookies not more pros.
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Tuna,
I think you misinterprit what I am trying to say, I don't need to play to win money, it the entry fee is less than 20 bucks or whatever I don't have an issue, but you cant expect people to pay money without getting anything for it, thats supply and demand... I really do think that getting a lot of people in the amatuer events even if they aren't paying much to play and none of the money is going towards the payout is one way to get sponsors interested. Sponsors would pay to get advertising at big tournaments if enough people were registered for the amature event. all the sponsor money SHOULD go to the pro players because they are the ones earning it. People don't want to watch rookie players play foosball, but even rookie foosball players like watching the pro's. Money in other sports comes from spectators, not people learning to play the sport. Foosball doesn't really lend itself as a spectator sport, but either way having lots of people around a tournament to see advertisements is the best way to get advertisers. So I think we are kind of on the same page here... Amatures do not need money, pros deserve money(hence the word professional). We just need to figure out the best way to get money into tournaments.
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the way for that to happen is to have more of every kind of player and as I said earlier, these issues can not be solved by entry fees alone...tournaments need outside money , sponsors
well, your statement about moving up is true in theory...problem is, the points system isn't updated very often and it has had quite a few issues for quite some time now
but, it wouldn't be hard to manipulate the points even if they were updated each tournament if you lost at the right times
but, if you knew you were going to make money as an Amateur, and money was a real motivation, you would work as hard as you could to win everything you could and you would fight to become a Professional player - a paid player (at least comparatively)
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I'll leave the financials to the promoter... I'm more concerned about the integrity of the game.
RANT WARNING!! All the garbage about point systems drive me crazy. I read all the discussions... inquiries as to why they went up this many or went down that many. All the what-if scenarios... "if I beat someone with this many points how many would I get?". Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the goal of playing in a given event to WIN IT?!?! Do we play for points? If points are you're playing for, I think that's what you're missing!
Here's the paradox I see in foosball these days... players demand perfection in their table, they want a hyper-accurate rating system, they want more money but lower entry fees. The list is lengthy.
But ask them to wear something presentable instead of ratty jeans and a t-shirt, or ask them to give a couple of rule changes a chance and all you get is bitching and complaints of infringement on their personal freedoms. Pu-leeese. To continue the apparel analogy, it's like putting a dress on a pig.
From what I've seen in just about every area of life, you usually have to give some to get some.
RANT OFF
BA
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Will,
we have much more in common than we differ...yes, people pay for a tournament, they need to get something for it...they get ribbons, trophies, recognition, learning, table time, pride, bragging rights, party, etc...
Pros get all that and some money...we both pay...Amateur pays a little less and Pro pays a little more
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well said.
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Ice,
I am with you on the dress code and rules...I don't care about the points thing so much except people need to feel like they are progressing and they need a way to measure how they are doing...points allow for that
I played when you became "Pro" after winning X amount of money...it is really kind of, well, bush...it simple but archaic...we don't need to mature to the level and a fully functioning, long time run, highly funded sport but we can move past..."dude, did you win $250 yet, cause I did and I am a Pro now"
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Ice,
Why it's always gotta be about Ice?!?! (Only one person will get that)
I played when you became "Pro" after winning X amount of money...it is really kind of, well, bush...it simple but archaic...we don't need to mature to the level and a fully functioning, long time run, highly funded sport but we can move past..."dude, did you win $250 yet, cause I did and I am a Pro now"
I was around back then too, yo. And you are correct in that it IS simple. Foosball in its present state doesn't need some complex, convoluted rating system that's going to confuse the snot out of everyone but statisticians and actuaries.
I've always liked simplicity. I think many times people want to assume that a problem is much more complex than it already is. Two examples I see... After all the turmoil of the past year or so over a point system, I still think the old system was adequate except for one big flaw; results were grossly underreported. More data generally results in more accuracy. It worked when there were 5 majors a year. Once that number decreased, problems started to arise.
The other one is the near-universal hatred of Valley's tournament software and near-universal praise for IFP's. I've had extensive experience using the software that Valley uses. It's far from state-of-the-art. It can be rigid sometimes and it's nowhere near the modern definition of user-friendly. But here's the secret to an IFP tournament's efficiency; Candy "The Table Nazi" Liley. If she doesn't constantly monitor the brackets or make sure people are at their tables when they're supposed to be, the tournament will slow to a crawl. When Dave Radack was behind the desk at tour events, he was masterful at keeping events moving. No super-sophisticated software, just vigilance.
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I played when $400 made you a pro now we played just to compete my first pro match we lost .now im a beginer I took 5th place in singles in Mi am I a beginer because my points are low I wont play in that again But I wont bring that nightmare up.Play with the big Dogs learn more .
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Brad, Brad, Brad,
I agree...mostly. I am not arguing for a point system that is complicated and that doesn't work but I was thinking we needed something slightly more sophisticated than $400-$2000 makes you pro...it doesn't leave a progression for players.
simple is good, I have a background in process improvement and I am very much into simple
I have never spent much time considering that issue...I will have to start giving that some thought
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Hey, I said I didn't have EVERYTHING figured out. Gotta start somewhere though, right? ;)
There's no doubt that there needs to be some methodology to define classification. However from what I've historically seen, after the top 20-25 seed (and I think I'm being generous) the impact of rank on who wins an event is greatly diminished... at least in Open events. And I'd bet that winning $2K in Open event money is harder than it sounds for a vast majority of players.
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Do pros in other sports have a point system to rank players? I think its good to get rewarded for your efferts at all leavels heres what I dont like table fees $40.00 $120.00 to get in events most players cant afford that then gas to get there.come on Hotel air fair You have to place 1or2nd in the pros to even think about recouping any thing .We all love to go to the events but if you have a family you have to think twice. So if you take the money from beginers rookies they will slowly stop going and only play in there local tournaments.
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Steve,
the vast majority of players at every rank, which I stated earlier...don't make any money anyway...you can't fix everything at the same time without a huge influx of money...you can have a bunch of money for the Amateurs and bunch of money for the Pro's, lower entry fees, less travel expenses, etc
we can't get more money for tournaments without raising entry fees or bringing money in from an outside source (i.e. sponsors)
but we can try and shuffle the funds we have and change the approach to tournaments for better future for the game...not the best future, just a better future than we currently have
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where th F*** are the sponsors....a common thing everyone seems to agree on is more outside sponsorship....anyone out there in marketing or fundraising or sales.....another can of worms...
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people have been trying for years and years...you have to think if Brunswick wanted to, they could get one of their big sponsors to throw a couple of bucks and a little attention toward their other "sport"
Bud would be a great sponsor
people say foos isn't a spectator sport and the way it is presented now I agree (unless you are foosfreaks like us) but could you imagine what a creative team of people with all the available technology could do...all the angles, slow motion, and stuff like they do with the puck in hockey or the the added stuff they have been putting on football (first down line and other stuff)
if you added knowledgable commentary (Jim Stevens) and good color analysts (Brad, Brandon, and Mark) and I think it could become a very spectator freindly game
in person they could fix the spectator issue with big screens
this is art, atheltics, speed, and chess mixed and I believe if given the money and presented right, it could be very interesting for people
a lot of things need to happen for this to come true not the least of which is to design a table that new and super casual players can feel accomplished on everytime they step up
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i couldnt tell you how many people that pass by when im practicing at a bar before a tournament....i tend to get there hours in advance....but i couldnt tell you how many people stop and watch and say damn I never knew foosball was that technical...I tell them to stick around for the tournaments.....but people love to watch it...they have poker night at the bar hewre where we play our tournaments and its hard to watch sometimes becasue people are constantly in awe of the matches and play.....People tend do dislike or ignore what they don't know....but once they know and understand it can be a powerful thing...
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we need more faith in the people running the show it`s hard to go so big with people who dont have any awarenss of the game(sponcors) Let your local paper know of some tournaments maybe they will show up.
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the people in charge (in America, i.e. Tornado) have a very long history of not taking care of things
ITSF is heading in the right direction and has done a lot of positive stuff just not enough and not enough here in the US
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I havent been around in a while so I have some catchen up to do.
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Guys...
How are we to gain numbers in foosball when we dont pay Rookies anything? Yes it sounds good in theory, when you say that we should only give them trophies, ribbons, table time, exp., ect. And that it will give them incentive to move up... well, you have to have a player base who will accept that theory. Unfortunatly we do not have that luxuray...
You have to throw them a bone, give them incentive to drive the 8hrs to go to a tournament. Hey, I am not saying to pay them equal to what is paid to Pros or SemiPros. But give them some kind of money to help with the expenses...
Honestly, how many noob players do you think would travel a long distance to play in a tournament and cant win any kind of money? Not very many... and the ones that do, how many of those tournaments do you honestly think they will attend? Again... not very many. Only the die-hard foozers would be willing to dump alot of money into the trips and entry fees only to gain a piece of plastic. And unfortunatly it is those die-hard foozers that our sport is lacking...
The only way that you could do the scenario where you dont pay Rookies, is if you make them pay substantually less than the money winning ranks. Which in turn would KILL the pay-outs, and in turn KILL foosball.
The sandbagging issue should resolve itself with the new point system. If a Rookie wins enough to get into the money and then losses on purpose... well, he would have won enough matches to give him substantial points that would eventually move him up in rank.
I do agree with the idea of updating the points 2x's a year instead of just once. That would again help with the sandbagging issue.
Keep foosball alive.
Pay Rookies alittle, Semi's some, Pro's alot
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Honestly, how many noob players do you think would travel a long distance to play in a tournament...
This then begs the question... SHOULD they be traveling a long distance to play? Hmmm.
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Rios,
How many Rookies and Semi Pro's at a Tournament make any money...2 or 3? maybe 4 or 5 if the payout is deep but still only the first 2 or 3 at the most, will win enough to pay for their costs...
we are talking about a very small percentage of people that have a realistic chance at winning anything...people dream but lets face it, 90%+ of players go to a tournament knowing they are not likely to recoup any cost
Lets set aside for a minute the current player base and assume they would be okay with this change...the new players coming in would totally get it...it is normal in any other sport...they would pay to compete, learn, and/or have fun because they would see that as the cost of their hobby/game/sport
This would upset at least some people in the current base but it would not prohibit new players from coming on board and it might shift enough money to make turning Professional (again in the US this means being a "paid" athlete) a little more attractive
However, I will say, even with this shift, alone, it will not make all the difference that is needed but it will be a good step in the long term development of the game...Professionals should be paid, Non-Professionals should not be paid
if the game ever grows to the point where there is tons of money available then at that point you can have layers of Professionals (like minor league sports today or “semi-Professional” leagues) but still, even then, Non-Professionals should be unpaid or Amateurs as defined in college sports today and as the Olympics was defined in the past and still is for most sports
The game will never grow like it should if money for tournaments is determined solely on entry fees but while we have this situation, we can still begin to take steps of laying a foundation for what this game/sport should look like in the future
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Back in the late seventies or early eighties, foosball in Oklahoma was beginning to suffer. At the time, there were no "rankings". Every tournament was an open. Most of the money was being won by the same small group of players.(sound familiar?)
We were among the first to use a ranking system. The idea was to give the players a chance of winning who wouldn't have a prayer against the top players.
The tournament director used his discretion to rank players. Not really fair, but we were struggling to get the numbers back up and rankings were new to us. They moved up when it looked like they were dominating their class. There were not that many pros as I remember. Kevin Keeter, Steve Swearingen, Mark Crowell, Lane Honeycutt, Tony Turner were a few. I got stuck in expert, which was fine with me. Some people whom I considered equal to me were allowed to play rookie. But there wasn't that much complaining because it was still pretty new to us.
Jay Brotherton was running the majority of tournaments at the time. We started with three ranks and I don't remember if we called them rookies or novices. He started paying the rookies more than the experts and pros. Needless to say, the rookie division exploded. We had the biggest tournaments (in number of entries) than we have ever had since. A lot of the players who started about this time still play some today. Tommy Adkisson was among these rookies. But there were a lot of other pretty good rookies too.
Later, when Link Pendley became the main promoter, he still payed the rookies pretty good but not quite the way Jay did.
The point I'm trying to make here is:
We built our grassroots program by paying the rookies. Any one who has gone to a tournament in Oklahoma in the last couple of years can see we just don't have the base we used to. It's getting too expensive and now all we have are the diehards.
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I'll get back to my earlier post...
If foosball is played AS A SPORT, then rewarding mediocrity (and that's what you're doing by paying Rk/Am) diminishes the integrity of that SPORT.
If you consider it a recreation (which I think a large majority of players do, hence playing for enjoyment) then you need to take the money out of the equation or as I suggested before, go play in a league. It isn't youth sports where they don't keep score and everyone gets a medal so no one feels bad... or are issued a rebate check when you walk through the door at a tournament.
Another heretical idea I'd like to see come to pass... Complete competitive separation between the Pro and non-pro player.
Chew on that one for a while. ;D
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Brad,
I don't think that is a bad idea...however, any major changes should be considered in a slow rollout with steps something like this...
1st change payout structure so that only "Semi-Pro" gets anything and that would be much less than now - also in this step, limit entry, select one or the other as I have suggested in earlier tournament format
2nd Move to clear distinction between Pro and Non-Pro and announce that Semi-Pro will be going away over the next X amount of time and that when that happens there will no longer be mix between Pro and Non-Pro except for "Open" DYP or other noted Specialty Events
3rd Make the final and complete split
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i think the best resoulution would be more sponsors...think itd be easier to do than the structure change then all you have to do is convince outside people to give cash or donations or whatever the hell elsew they want instead of convincing everyone that one way is better than the other because there are several points on each side of the arguement i agree with...
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Honestly, how many noob players do you think would travel a long distance to play in a tournament...
This then begs the question... SHOULD they be traveling a long distance to play? Hmmm.
Well, if this group of players dont travel, then you could expect a significant decline in tournament foosball. How many people do you think actually have to travel to get to tournaments??? By far, the majority. How many players have a tournament (of any significant size) that comes within 5 hours of their location? By far... the minority! The fact of the matter is, foosball players HAVE to travel... it just comes with the territory. So the question was Should they travel a long distance to play??? yes, they have to if they want to play! And I am sure that many of the pro's and pro-masters are glad that they do because where do you think they get the majority of their pay-outs from? Rookies!!!
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If I were running a tournament I would focus on getting more rookies/newbies into the tournament. I think that having 3 tiers in the tournament is best - 1. Rookie - 2 expert(or semi pro or amateur) - 3. Pro. You will not get new people to go to a tournament with a high buy in unless they get something for it, thats not just for foosball but for any other hobby or sport. you cant find a sport or hobby that has the rookies supporting the pro's. I think after someone has placed in the money in a rookie tournament they should move up to the expert category for good. I don't know about which point system to use or whether it should be based on money but the only way to get enough money into the pro players hands is with sponsors and there is no way around that. Tournaments should advertise in unconventional ways, hit up facebook with tournament pages. you can even search on facebook to find people that have foosball listed as one of there activities/interests and message that group of people inviting them to a tournament. also market in bar's that don't have pool tables. the funny thing about foos is that most people think they are good at it because they play at work sometimes or had a table as a kid or play at school sometimes, so you would just need to get those people to register for a cheap entry fee and then you would be able to get big sponsors(coke, red bull, ford etc) because of how many people they would reach. you cant look for foosball specific advertisers, you can find a ton of companies that spend soo much money on advertising that reaching a lot of people easily would be great for them. why don't we have tournaments with companies names in them? The Red Bull Series, The Ford Classic, other tournaments/venues are not named after things within the sport. Don't take money from the rookies to support the pro's. take the value that you get by having rookies and use it to get money out of companies.
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BB-
Again I am not saying to pay Rookies or Semi's alot of money. What I am saying is to give them some incentive to travel and play. I totally realize that only a small percentage of players have a realistic opportunity to come out with some cash. The only real people that "make" money in a big tournament are Pro-Masters, and promoters... which is how it should be!
What I am saying is that if you give the Rookies and Semi's a "chance" to help with their expenses it will definalty attract more foosers than playing for a trophy or ribbon or jacket.... yes those are nice, but they dont put gas in their car. Granted alot of foosers accept the fact that they are going to lose money, and that a foosball tournament is to be used as a "vacation". Now here is a question for you... how many "vacations" is the average joe fooser going to be able to make a year? One maybe two???
If you give people just a chance to win some money, they will be more likely to attend more tournaments. Money shouldnt be a motivational factor in a foosball player... but without money... you cant play foosball...
it is a vicious cycle
You cant compare Amature players in baseball, basketball, football, etc. with Amature foosball players, it is a totally different ball of wax... if you are to compare them with other Amatures... compare them with Amature pool players, or darts players, or bowlers, etc...
and yes they do win money, ALOT more than Amature foosball players win might I add...
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Will,
You said, "you cant find a sport or hobby that has the rookies supporting the pro's" ... well, yes and no...no other hobby/sport/game supports all their tournaments based on entry fees alone so there really is no comparrsion
you are seeing this from your current understanding and bias of the way things are...you can't see the entry fees as supporting one or the other...they are a cost for being in the tournament...this is one of the BIG issues in my mind with the way things are right now
the issue is that people see a correlation between their entry fee and the "potential" payout...I mean, based on this logic, the Pro's should be supported only by their own entry fees, think about how that would work out
it is fundementally wrong, forget foosball for a minute, it is fundementally wrong to have NON-Pro's paid - if they are paid, they are no longer NON-pro they are PRO
Rios,
Darts, bowling, etc are not fair comparrisons for a couple of reasons...first off, they all have sponsor money, lots and lots of it compared to foosball (well any would be a lot compared to foosball)
secondly, each of the games/sports you mentioned have Amateur player bases 100's of times larger than foosball entire population...so they have a larger group of people than we do who are elligible for money and if they call them Amateur than we are arguing over semantics
Professional needs to mean something...traditionally in this country it has meant a PAID athlete and an Amateur is an UNPAID athlete
whereever you want to draw the line, there should be a clear Amateur UNPAID group and a Professional PAID group...today the vast majority of players are Amateur but they take up 1/3 or more of all the money available in tournaments (that and useless events but that is another topic)
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Well, with that argument BB you cant compare foosball to ANY sport then. Because foosball just doesnt have the numbers of other games. The reason why I compared foosball to bowling, darts, and pool is because they all fall into the same type of "bar sport" category. I mean, I go and play in local golf tournaments and win money... am I considered a professional because I won money? no... far from it. I would say that a "professional" is someone who can make a living from the money they win...
I guess the main thing I am trying to get across here, is that if you take away payouts to the lower ranks and pay only the Pro's... I just dont see how that will help foosball grow. I tell you what it will do, is probably make the sport more competitive because the only Amatures that will play will be those that feel they have a legitimate chance at moving onto becoming Professionals. The average Joe Schmo foosball player will just stop going alltogether or just go to one tournament a year.
Bottom line is, the only way that foosball will grow to the numbers of bowling or pool is if we get some sort of sponsorship, so that there can be an increase in prize money, which unfortunatly doesnt look like it is gonna happen anytime soon. However, having Corona at last years Worlds was a great step in the right direction. Has there been any talk of them or anyone else sponsoring the Hall of Fame coming up?
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Darts, bowling, etc are not fair comparrisons for a couple of reasons...first off, they all have sponsor money, lots and lots of it compared to foosball (well any would be a lot compared to foosball)
Here's the biggest difference between the cited games/sports/activities and foosball... long-standing, well organized LEAGUE PROGRAMS that cater to nearly all categories of participants EXCEPT the "pro". And in pretty much each of those activities, events that pro-ranked players' participate in are separate from the rank-and-file players.
You see pool and dart tournaments with massive participation for very large prize funds. Guess where a lot of that money comes from... from local leagues that gets funneled up the chain to help fund the larger events. With the popularity of poker and the concept of "satellite tournaments", why not apply that to foosball? Small buy-in, potentially large pay-off for those who excel.
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I think most players and promoters only care that the turn out is large and if paying amateur and semi pros some of there money back does this I say lets do it. We all want foosball to grow and this might be the way to do it. We need to hear from large promoter like Mary to tells us how payouts effect turnout.
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Pro bowlers have to play in a league every 12 months. They also have to participate in the Pro-am events. What we need is Jim Stevens to produce a series, purchase time on the cable and satelite networks,and eventually hire a marketing firm to sell advertising based on the shows ratings. Otherwise, there is nothing of value to market.
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What we need is Jim Stevens to produce a series, purchase time on the cable and satelite networks,and eventually hire a marketing firm to sell advertising based on the shows ratings.
Hold on... I'll call him. I'm sure he could use a good chuckle. :D
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Hold on... I'll call him. I'm sure he could use a good chuckle. :D
You know I am serious. At this point in time Jim is the only man on earth as far as I know that can make it happen. Is it risky? Yes. But it is less risky for him than any one else because he knows what he is doing, he has the experience and probably the desire. Oh and while is co-commentator is suspect, his board man is top notch! 8)
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I'm serious too, Ed. He'd laugh is butt off.
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If you want big sponcers the sport has to be visable to the masses they wont put money in a sport no one can watch.I went to the Michigan tournament in southgate I thought it was a low turn out from the late 70s I thought there was a lot more people showing up then?
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If you want big sponcers the sport has to be visable to the masses they wont put money in a sport no one can watch.
You could also get big sponsors by having a lot of people attend the tournament, even if it is not on TV or drawing any attendance for people watching you could still get big name sponsors to pay... I.e. If we had a really big tournament scheduled, like the Hall of fame classic or the us open. if we have a lot of people registered it would be appealing to a company like ford or pepsi or any of the companies with large advertising budgets. we could do a lot of things to help this - Hold the tournament in a public place such as a large shopping mall... if the FORD US OPEN was being held with big banners everywhere and a few cars parked around in a mall with a lot of people registered it would be great publicity. all we would need is like $20,000 to add on top of the way things are currently done and it would increase payouts by soo much. $20,000 isn't much to those companies... they could put the Ford logo on a jacket that is given to the winner. they could have a flier that gets mailed to all the participants along with a confirmation of registration. things like the forward shootout could be the F-150 forward shootout... everyone that comes to the tournament could get a free t-shirt with "the FORD us open" on it. if we offer big companies a good oportunity to reach a lot of potential consumers to sponsor the tournament they will do it. Remember even if this plan is rejected by ford there are millions of beer companies, car companies, fast food chains, sports drink companies etc that we could hit up with one marketing plan.