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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: gitablok on April 04, 2008, 07:31:25 AM
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Here you are guys. Detailed close ups of the new table, at least I hope so anyway. Best changes imo are no side strip(which is actually under the surface now, but was also the only problem I noticed with the table) and of course the bumper/bearing fix which existed on every table of which I have illustrated with close ups. The last group of photos shows the differences in the outer edge of the man. From what I was told, the yellow men have a 45 degree angle on the edge and the black men have a 22. My only other knock was the cumbersome score beads.
http://picasaweb.google.com/ezemoat/TornadoPrototype
ICEMAN
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I wonder how having the side strips under the surface will hold up over time. It seems to me that it may become a problem over time, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think? This would be an expensive manufacturing detail.
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Iceman, did you have a chance to play the new ball? If so, what's your take on it?
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Iceman,
thank you for taking the time to detail these pictures, they very good, I saved a bunch of them for future use
however, i still questions...some I hope you can answer, others myabe not and maybe Ed or someone else can jump in
1. as mentioned, I sure would like to get detailed feedback on how it actually "played"...
2. I re-read Corrington's letter because I don't remember any comment on handle changes and ironically enough, those look like the same handles that are on the "proposed" new Warrior ... conicidence? I think not...but either way, how do they play...they look thinner, which would be better for rollovers but also good for everyone since the rotation is shorter
3. I see the strip gone, and that sounds all well and good but I don't understand this talk about the strip under the table top...is this literal? do you mean it is placed under the table to create a little lift to the edge so balls still roll away but to avoid the significant reaction of the ball hitting the strip?...if this is the case, why not just mold the table with a small incline on the edge, it seems that would take less work manufacturing long term and probably improve table life because I can't imagine a edging stuck under the table would be positive long term
4. Suppose I am slow but I totally do not get the "improvement" on the mans foot...
a. Cross-hash: I thought the cross-hash was going to go up the entire face of the foot
b. Cambered Edge: I thought the word "camfer" meant beveled at 45 degrees...but apart from that, is the thought that the flat edge that runs like a picture frame around the cross-hash is supposed to improve hitting the ball with a consistent angle?
c. Cross-hash Breakthrough: the cross-hash breaks through the picture frame at one point but doesn't continue the entire face of the man, what is the purpose of this?
d. Slick Edge: won't the picture frame mean you can't rock a backpin as far without hitting a slick edge on the man?
e. Remove Curve on Foot: i need to say this again and hope that Dave Corrington reads this and thinks about it a few minutes before committing to the new man design but, why if we are remolding the man, which isn't going to happen again for many many years...why aren't we getting rid of the curve on the face of the man...I do not understand the purpose or benefit of that curve and it does more, much more, to impact the ability to hit consistent angles than any other thing...benefits of how the face of the man are varied are not as clear except I know that cross-hash means more control but the curve is another thing altogether...lets just remove it, it isn't needed is it? is it good for something I haven't heard about? even hitting the ball flush is impacted by that curve and I think the entire Tornado game would improve accuracy without that curve
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If you removed to curve on the frontside of the man when hitting a rollover it might get too far under the ball and cause it to raise above the net... Not sure about this as I havn't tested it.
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i don't think this is true on other tables with a flush surface but I know it is harder to hit the ball flush with the curve...people have made the adjustment and it isn't a hugh impact, like it is when hitting the ball with an edge that is curved, but it does make an impact on the consistent accuracy of shooting the ball straight though if you watch Tommy Adkinson you wonder if the foot makes any impact to anything but he is a freak of nature and I mean that in the best way possible, he definately has as much or more natual skill as anyone I have ever seen play and he is fun to watch
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Anyone knows this table and parts will be on the market? Like to try them.
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Ok...here's the answers.
The foot:
1. The curve on the foot creates more surface contact which allows for more "pinability" and control. Without it there would be less contact with the ball and that would cause the ball to squib away more frequently. Pluss if the foot was straight it would get farther behind the ball on impact causing the ball to fly off the table more often. Think of it as if it were scooping the ball up off the surface.
2. Having the foot textured to the edge would cause it to grab the ball more, causing the ball to travel foward. Kinda creating more of a sweet spot not allowing the ball to release from the foot as easily. So having the texturing end before the edge would allow the ball to release easier therefore less effort would be required to bank or clip.
It's my opinion that the edge should not have a bevel as this would cause the ball to release at whatever angle the bevel is. So as you move the ball away from the wall, the bevel would only allow you to hit a bank or clip within a small area on the playfield determined by the bevel angle.
The Handles:
Not the same as on the Warrior table. They are a type of rubber compound not wood.
Don't know how well they'd wear over time. They may tend to become slippery when you sweat and wear abnormally. That's to be seen. However they are not OEM. They're aftermarket purchaseable equipment (like wraps) and are not intended to be a "new equipment change".
Talk to Phill Schlaffer if you'd like to buy some.
The Side Strip:
Seems as though over time having the strip between the surface and the base will cause the surface laminate to begin to peel away from the base as it creates tension and is working again the glue that holds the surface down. This could creat a problem with the surface warping near the walls.
Don't know that that would be true yet, but i did find that there were many dead sopts near the walls already that could confirmed my opinion on this issue. Only time will tell.
Bumper/Bearing:
Good fix! Seems to have solved any issues there!
The Ball:
Although it was easier to control, it was Too Soft.
It stubbed more often when shooting a pull and it begain to hurt my arm after playing with it for a while.
Overall though, the changes should be an improvement and should make the game more competitive.
Hope this was informative and helpfull.
I'll have a ball and some of the new men with me at the US Open, so if anyone would like to see them please feel free to ask.
Till then, video of the tabel is up on This Week In Foosball.
http://www.thisweekinfoosball.foosball.com/gallery.html
Happy Foos'n!
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thank you, good report
a couple of things...I shoot a backpin and have for all the time I have played foosball...I started on TS and played on Dynamo and Early Tornado with a flat front surface and I can tell you without any doubt that the curve is NOT better for control on a backpin...it is just the opposite of what you suggest, you definately have the potential to loose the ball much more easily with the curve...i won't go into detail right now
second, this notion of the ball being hit and scooping up is just a thought not reality...every other table in the world has men with flat surface fronts and none of them are known for the ball jumping off the table...I go back to my earlier explanation at least of TS Dyn and early Tor, plus, go play other current tables and you will see
On The Camfered edge
it just looks flat but a right angle, is that not right...see, this is another reason the face of the man should be flat, the entire front of the foot should have cross-hashed the entire face and to the edge a close as possible...I think there should be as minimal as possible straight edge which stops the cross-hashed from extending all the way to the edge
that edge should be a straight, clean, tough, right angle...I am afraid that if the cross-hash goes all the way over, the edge of the man will wear quicker and chip off with hard smashes with opened handed banks
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Now if they can reduce the width of the current clumbsy foot on the shooting and passing rods to 70's size and increase the width of the foot on the single goalie rod by 1/2 inch, they will have finally woke up to implement the ultimate product. IMHO, A Soccer player with size 9 foot can better run/control the ball than a soccer player with size 14 foot..A Soccer player with wider arms/leggs span can better block than a smaller faster fancier showboat Midfielder or Forward ball runner.
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the wider man would definately be able to block more but on a foosball table, unlike in real life, a small foot does not mean better control, just the opposite
a beginner will do better with a wider foot and conditions which create better ball control meaning the hashing on the foot both sides, the texture of the ball, the surface of the table and the materials all these are made of
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Iceman, did you have a chance to play the new ball? If so, what's your take on it?
Hello all. Yes, I got a chance to play the new ball. And... I like it. As I stated before, the only real problem with the table is the side strip. It seems after awhile of playing on the tables, the strip separates from the surface underneath which caused a " something sounds loose " sound. It didn't affect play, it just sounded nasty. I don't think they know how much the surface flexes during play so they may need to find a more viable way of affixing the strip.
As far as the ball is concerned, it is true about stubbing the ball more on pull shots BUT...this is an easy fix. Just move the ball forward. I am in agreement with Todd L. in that the current ball now starts off great but with play the fuzz wears off and it starts to move towards the slick side which is not good for anyone. The new ball seemed to stay consistent all weekend, which is good. Because it is softer, it offers more control, especially on hard stick passes.
Back pins. I don't remember his name but there was a guy there who shot a back pin series of which included some kind of weird squeeze shot. He said if he could shoot this particular shot with the new ball he would be happy. He did it over and over. He loved the ball and the table.
Bankers rejoice. Because of no side strips, the ball doesn't bounce up and hit the rods anymore. I was even able to hit bank shots of which I never do, even from the front three rod.
Old school push kickers. The hard chip angle is back. The men that have the 22 degree angle offer accuracy but more importantly consistency in all chip options shot or pass. The 22 degree offers the best match of ball and man because it best matches the contour of the ball when it hits it at an angle. It's like a rounded tip on a pool cue vs. one that is flat or mushroomed. When you use extreme english on the cue ball, the rounded tip is best because it presents the most surface area, the flat tip usually results in a miscue. So when chip passing or shooting a hard angle, the more surface area you can present to the ball the better and the 22 degreed man seems to do this very well.
My review. After playing 5 min. on the table, I stopped, walked over to Dave Courington and asked, " What is it gonna take for y'all to produce "this" table?"
All of the changes with the bearing fix makes the table simply awesome to play on. Other than the nasty sounding area near the wall, everyone I talked liked or loved the table.
ICEMAN
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thank you, good report
a couple of things...I shoot a backpin and have for all the time I have played foosball...I started on TS and played on Dynamo and Early Tornado with a flat front surface and I can tell you without any doubt that the curve is NOT better for control on a backpin...it is just the opposite of what you suggest, you definately have the potential to loose the ball much more easily with the curve...i won't go into detail right now
second, this notion of the ball being hit and scooping up is just a thought not reality...every other table in the world has men with flat surface fronts and none of them are known for the ball jumping off the table...I go back to my earlier explanation at least of TS Dyn and early Tor, plus, go play other current tables and you will see
On The Camfered edge
it just looks flat but a right angle, is that not right...see, this is another reason the face of the man should be flat, the entire front of the foot should have cross-hashed the entire face and to the edge a close as possible...I think there should be as minimal as possible straight edge which stops the cross-hashed from extending all the way to the edge
that edge should be a straight, clean, tough, right angle...I am afraid that if the cross-hash goes all the way over, the edge of the man will wear quicker and chip off with hard smashes with opened handed banks
Good points Tuna......However,
The reason the ball didn't fly off the table on TS and other tables with straight faced men is because the man sat higher up off the playing surface. Therefore the man was unable to get up under the ball. The Tornado man sits very low to the table, so a straight faced Tornado man would strike the ball below the center of the ball, lifting it up off the table. Especially when hitting a rollover.
The reason it's better for a back pin is simple, the curve creates more of a flat surface effect on the man when it's tilted back therefore there is more contace with the ball. The next time your near a table, tilt the man back and you'll be able to see this effect.
Yes, the front of the face should be flat across, but having the crosshatching continue to the edge creates two problems:
1. A bigger sweet spot that doesn't allow the ball to release at a angle when attempting a bank or chip. I know this to be a fact as I have recently played with a set of men that has the crosshatching to the edge. This effect is quite evedent when you play with the two types of men side by side.
2. The crosshatching near the edge tends to flattten out, or mushroom, causing the material to extend over the edge, and protrude over to the side of the man. This then has an adverse effect on lateral control of the ball.
Your right about the edge of the man.
It should be at a right angle, however as it is now, the debate among those within and in control seems to be between a straight edge and a 22 degree bevel. If you were a TS player or have played on any table that had straight edged men, you know that the straight edge is what made it easier to hit chips and banks......Im voting for the straight edge. (but no crosshatching to the edge).
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Iceman,
thank you, good review...I am excited, very excited, about the changes
about the back pin...it isn't shooting the ball that is impacted so much by the curved foot, it is ball control...put a ball on a convex surface and then put it on a flat surface you will see part one of what I am talking about...or you can pin the ball in a front pin, then pin the ball in a back pin and look closely you will see what I mean...you do not have more surface on the curved foot
but even this isn't as big an issue as it is that the curved surface makes the ball walk forward and is constantly changing the angle and as the ball walks forward it is increasingly more likely to slide out...this is true with a flat surface to some degree but the difference here is that the ball is on a hill side and not a flat ramp
i don't know why they don't make the front side the same as the back side, it presents an uneven experience front pin to back pin
I am definately prejudice because I am a backpin shooter but how many true backpin shooters were used in extensive study...I don't want the backpin to have an advantage over other shots, but I would like to see it have an equal opportunity again and this man change may be the only time this can happen for another 20 years
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Wrong wrong wrong Tuna.
Like I said...the next time your around a table take a look.
The curved front of the foot actually makes a flat surface when tilted back, therefore more surface contact is made on the ball. The curve on the front is not a semi circle, which would make your point true.
Try this...pin the ball as if your shooting a roll over and observe the contact point the man makes with the ball.
Then set the ball in the back pin position and you'll see the effect the curve has....You'll see that the man not only makes more contact with the ball, but also sits flatter on top of the ball which gives you more control....If your having issues with the ball squibbing away in a back pin, then you have it sitting either too far forward or too far back.....
Go to a table........and take a look.
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YES I agree a beginner will have better ball control at first using a longer foot and understand it's importance, But IMHO in the intermediate and advanced stages, I think the *more narrow foot without the extra length like the 70's Tornado* is better, because when kicking the ball around in a passing series, it's easier to get around the ball , using movements which include circling the ball, and keeping it moving faster(without having to slow your movement down to prevent/decrease the chance of throwing the ball off line by bumping it with the wider/longer clumbsy foot), changing direction, multi-times, before moving into the final step in passing the ball forward.
Plus it allows you to slice and dice the ball better using a more narrow sharper blade. I also find the running PushKick, running Bank Shot, and running goalie pass to forward, easier to do using the *more narrow and shorter 1970's foot*, mainly because you can get the smaller foot out of the way and run quicker with it, during the kick, slice kicking, running, reversing, hovering, circling manuevers, when shooting my TKO series. Now for squezzing, I think the wider foot allows you to execute those movement options better by having more on contact brushing squeeze range. I think the wider foot makes it easier to shoot a heel shot when starting from a standing position, but I think the run and gun heel shot (utilizing slice/sqeeze/kick back options) is easier to do with the smaller foot.
Anyways not to excessively agrue the point, just to elaborate a little on why I think the *1970's Tornado more narrow foot* is better, by allowing more things to be done. I equate it to using an oversized set of golf clubs for starting out , then at some point moving into the intermediate stages of your stroke, you are ready to get some finer cutting blades to peform at a higher level with more cutting ability. But once again I do shoot the back pin sqeeze (not as good as BPTUNA) and with the wider foot I believe you do have much more range utilizing that one man when staying in contact with the ball. However when I squeeze or slice it to the inside or outside man, from the middle man I prefer to have a more narrow foot/finer blades on those outside men. I can also get around the ball quicker and more error free when shooting a pull or push shot, when moving into the stroke position as there is less Foot to move around the ball.
Theres no question, if the length of the foot is longer, it's easier for a beginner to start and maintain control throughout the shot. For me it gets a little clumbsy when moving the ball around the foot when getting into strike position. The width of the foot does not make it any easier for this lateral control, it just gives them more brushing/sqeezing range when applying the final downstroking brush movement, plus it reduces the margin of error in mistriking the ball, which I agree is good for the beginner.
I also believe the longer and wider Foot used today will last longer than the 1970's foot as it's bigger and less likely to break. This is good for maintenance cost concerns. But because of the reasons mentioned above, I think the 1970's *more narrow and shorter foot*(as opposed to the current clumbsy Tornado Foot) makes the game more exciting and allows you to take it to a higher level. 8)
BPTuna you going to Texas State ?
the wider man would definately be able to block more but on a foosball table, unlike in real life, a small foot does not mean better control, just the opposite
a beginner will do better with a wider foot and conditions which create better ball control meaning the hashing on the foot both sides, the texture of the ball, the surface of the table and the materials all these are made of
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instead of getting into a bunch of detail for now, lets just take it from a full-time many-yeared backpin shooter that the curve on the foot is not a benifit to backpins
so, if we assumed that, is there any other benefit to the curve? I think not but there are benefits to having a straight face
-banks and angles
-better striking surface - hitting a ball w/a flat surface instead of a rounded surface
-no beveled edge needed which means larger surface for ball control
-front and back on man can be the same for equal opportunity ball control front or back pin
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Tuna, Try flipping a tornado man to backwards on the table and shoot some back pin shots. One of the bar's here accidentally put the 2 man defense on backwards and I couldn't back pin with that man very well at all. I think if the center of the bar were higher off the table it would help... someone who can hit a rollover should try this and see if the ball lifts.. physics suggests it would...
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Will,
i went in and explored what you said hitting the ball backward with open hand and it doesn't jump up any more than when I hit open hand the other direction
I also did a reverse rollover just to get an idea and I hit it closed handed with the ball in a bunch of positions...if you stub the ball it has a tendency to jump up but that is true in both directions with flat face and curved face
further, I placed the man straight up and down with a ball in front and again in back and then both together, one on either side of the ball, and the strike point in both cases is the same or so close u can't tell without serious equipment
and last, the strike point was at the center of the ball, or perhaps just above center
i don't know where you are getting this idea but I think it is spurious* and it takes the focus away from what is most important (IMHO)
get rid of the curve, it surves no purpose
get rid of the bevel, its only purpose is to try and fix the issues the curve creates
flat face
cross-hashed the entire front foot
make the edge the same as it is on the back foot (no bevel)
*Suprious
1: of illegitimate birth
2: outwardly similar or corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities
3:
a. of falsified or erroneously attributed origin
b: of a deceitful nature or quality
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tuna you could be right as I don't hit a rollover so I can't really speak to weather or not it would jump. I do know that it is possible to hit the ball below the center. watch an aerial and you see the back player hit the ball off the two bar so that it jumps, wouldn't be possible without the man being below the ball. I think with the man below the ball then definately with enough force you can get the ball to come off the table, i'm not sure how much though as I haven't done it. also I'm not a back pin shooter, but I find my back pin has more control than my front pin. having looked at the man i agree that it creates a flat surface when it touches the ball. maybe that isn't ideal though and having a little bit of an angle helps to rock the ball forward. I think if all backpin shooters agree that flat front men would help, and rollover shooters don't lift the ball then its a good idea. are there other tables (Garlando, techball, roberto) that people hit rollovers on with a flat man? maybe a rollover shooter should wrap the heck out of a three bar on the opposite side and see if they can lift the ball backwards?
too bad the people at valley don't care as much as the people on this forum...
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i have been very dissappointed in the way Valley has treated the table and players since I have been back in the game (last 4 /12 years) but these current proposed table changes are a strong, positive, deliberate move and I want to applaude them for that
they haven't made the decision in a vacumn, they involved top players in the design and testing, and they have given all players a chance to try out changes BEFORE implementing them which is so big and so smart on so many levels I have to give credit where it is due especially since I don't mind complaining when other decisions have been bad
I have hope that they will make a good decision on how to handle the strip since they got some feedback about that and it is headed in the right direction...I have confidence that they will make a good decision about the ball I think all that is needed is to probably split the difference between the current official ball and the softer one proposed (softness mixture) and they will probably get the best of both worlds
I have confidence with the handles, the scoring markers and game markers are good (I only hope they add one for time outs but this isn't the least bit critical just a good idea)
and the handling of the bummper gap seems to be right on so that only leaves the man
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I have a serious urgent concern with this for a couple reasons
first and most important...I think I have been lead to believe they are willing to make this change because after 20 years it is time to change the mold on the man and as long as they are making that change why not update the man
totally great thinking but the issue is, once they have made this change, we are not likely to see another one for another 20 years
Ed can speak to the original reason to make the front foot curved but that has caused numerous issues and no one can tell me any positive impact it has on play
the only attempt is something about improving a backpin and I shoot the backpin and can tell you I have been complaining about since first coming back and then a strike point question which I think is not real
so, this leaves no reason to have the curve...it doesn't improve a pull, or a rollover, or any other part of the game that I know of...I am guessing it must have some positive impact but I just don't know what it is
I am not suggesting a change, nor would I, if this impacted some core quality of todays game, pull, rollover, brush, stick but so far I have no personal evidence or any other evidence that this would impact any of these key elements and it could be argued that a flat face would improve several of them
so, before any final decisions are made I am begging those making the decisions to slow down and please consider my points
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One more thing they needed to take into consideration is make 2 -3 different handles, or exchangeable; My daughter, she is only 12 and have small hands but love the game of foosball but the handles is just way to big for her to do some of the moves; I know some of the female and players have small hands, they can play much better if the handles can fit them better. Tornado tournament table is the best to start so they don't develop bad habits. What do you think?
Can we get this suggestions into the Company designer's head. to promote the Foosball sports, it stating from the kids.
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CURVE -VS- FLAT FACE
most of the proposed changes on the man are being made because the curve on the current foot create a situation where the vast majority of people can not strike the ball with the edge of the man conistenly or predicably...why? because it is curved...
so, to fix this, they are beveling the edge of the man...this bevel takes away from the surface space available on the face of the man and does not present a better solution than a straight line
so, why not just make the face straight and the edge straight...remove the curve all together instead of try and hide the curve with a beveled edge
again, there is no reason to keep the curve, well, none that I have heard that has substance and for sure none from those making the decision
I am not asking for you to adopt what I am saying blindly, I am asking that you test it as carefully as you have tested the current proposed changes and judge for yourselves and then if you choose to do this, please include as part of your beta test group, the 3 fulltime committed backpin shooters that I know (me, foosaround69, and The Pinanalyzer)...(I have heard of a couple players who were helping, Gummy, Todd, Terry but as a side note, I hope they have also included at least one full time pushkick and pullkick shooter as well as a Europin)
get rid of the curve, it surves no purpose
get rid of the bevel, its only purpose is to try and fix the issues the curve creates
flat face
cross-hash the entire front foot
make the edge the same as it is on the back foot (no bevel)
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I didn't say anything about the changable handles because that brought up such a firestorm on the other board and I didn't want to distract the topic but I totally loved the idea and hope it is still in the future and you make a great point...everything that can be done to make it easier for young people to play (without taking away from the serious competition table)
the idea already exists, it was almost implemented and here it is....it was tested on site as well "Viper" handle, which was much thinner than the current handle, apparently improved rollover quite a bit because the spin is so much faster the smaller the handle
most of the arguement against seemed to center on the impact to promoters and site tables...I think there are ways to deal with this but I think this was the major stumbling block unless there was something else happening behind the scenes that never became public
http://www.foosballpro.com/index.php
the Viper specifically
http://www.foosballpro.com/foosball_product_photo.php?cat=Quik-Change%20Foosball%20Handles&item=5187.987987988
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Thanks you, I'll look into it.
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I guess it'll be even more comical watching people try to play in bars, now that theres no serving hole. Will these tables come with rules etched in the side? Maybe a hyperlink?
"For information on starting your game, visit http://..."
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It's my opinion that the edge should not have a bevel as this would cause the ball to release at whatever angle the bevel is. So as you move the ball away from the wall, the bevel would only allow you to hit a bank or clip within a small area on the playfield determined by the bevel angle.
I think you're perfectly right about this. The makers of the Fireball table in Germany (the Fireball is a fairly new table that was constructed in order to support the Tornado-playing-techniques as well as the typical German pinning style) had to remove the originally chamfered edges on the feet of their men as a response to the almost unanimous criticism from the players. Everyone praised the overall quality of the table, "if it wasn't for the chamfered edges on the feet, which made bank shots nearly impossible".
Now the table comes with sharp edges on the men, and the response to that was overwhelmingly positive.
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is this the F5 table?