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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: FoosFanatic on June 05, 2008, 09:18:31 AM
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Recently I played an amazing game against 2 players ranked higher in my area than me(area is broke into group 3, 2 and 1 and pro. They were a pro and a group 1. Both veterans and on a regular day would probably beat me. I ended up pullin out a match thanks out playing them on the 5-man, getting alot more shots and my goalie played great. Next game, I played another pro, who is better than both of them. Now in the 1st match, i completed probably 80% of my passes. I switched between brushing and some quick pull stick lanes/scoops/walls. I went after the next team with the same 5-man strategy, and couldn't do anything. We got shut out, 5-0 1st game...and 5-0 2nd game. The guy is an amazing player, but there's no way I should have had so much trouble. He racing my stick passing and winning. When i set up to brush, he gaurded lane and raced wall. I tried brushing from and into different places, but he always got a guy on it. I do small fakes that get me by but he didnt bite. I tried pull scoops off the wall and he nailed em. I have no idea how he was reading the scoop rather than the straight to wall.
Anyway, the guy has my number, and has done this to me more than once. I need pointers. I can do anything on a foosball table, I've played 2 years and I am now getting to the point where I can be an effective forward in tournaments. I have a good brush pass, although I need to work on my consistency with my speed, as I tend to throw it off-speed when I probably should just jet it. I have a solid pull lane/wall/scoop(like Pappas...but way way slower :)
Any help Appreciated.
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It comes with playing a lot you may have shown him a pattern when he blocks a wall he might be setting you up for the lane pass ,then blocking that also but some how he knows what your going to do maybe your playing to safe and not strokeing your pass as fast as you should. 2 years of playing theres a lot more learning upstairs to come. good luck. Dont hold anything back. 8)
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First, reread this post on defense.
http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6505&highlight=bar+defense+defence
Pay attention to the post on what the indicators are on what to look for in blocking a pass. This is what that guy is doing to you. You say you do a scoop off the wall.....is your man near the wall when you do this pass or do you wait with your man about an inch off the wall when you do this pass? I would bet your man is off the wall, which is why this guy is blocking that pass. This is how I would read that pass. You pull the ball to the wall but your man does not go fully to the wall....why would I respect the quick wall, your man is not near the ball to advance it. See my point, that's why he is camped on the quick up.
In your brush series, if you're passing from different locations, you're making a critical error. You need to work on options from the same location. This is where the strength of the brush pass is, deception. A ball passed from the same point on the table but to different locations is hard to read and block. When you pass out of the sweet spot for the most options, you severely diminish them which in turn limits your pass effectiveness. What is sound like to me is either you are too high up past the sweet spot to have an effective down or you have not worked on an option to go down effectively. So as a defending player, why would I worry about the down? I'm gonna sit lane and race wall until you can prove otherwise you can go down from that same location you are doing an up at. You must have a strong up from that location but a weak down, so why would he move? Again, see my point.
As for you fakes...are they done with a man near the ball? If they are done a half inch away from the ball they are worthless. Again, if your man is too far away from the ball, there is no threat of advancement, so now, how good is that fake? As a defender, when the man leaves too far away from the ball, I can relax even on a fake because I know you are not going to advance the ball. So now to advance it, your man has to re-approach the ball. Can you say, TELEGRAPH? Once more, see my point?
Okay, now I will get critical.
Your complacency with your pass is not the way to think. You say you have a good brush pass but this person sits lane and races your wall. Sorry to tell you but that does not equal good pass, it may be okay but not good, this guy has proved that point. This guy has recognized a glaring weakness in your 5 that you have not.
You say you have a solid lane wall series, I beg to differ. If it is way slower than Billy's, it will not be effective. This series relies on pure quickness, not speed, and the ability to hit the high stick lane right behind the second guy on the defensive five. This is a very complicated series of which Billy has found out because it is not his primary series anymore, he does more brushes now. He got the series from a guy who plays here in Dallas locally, Denis Ory. Denis on the other hand, has some downright sick options in the series that no one else in the world does. When he's on, nobody stops him, and I mean nobody.
So I would say first do an ego check, your pass may not be as good as you think. If the same guy is stonewalling you, that is proof you have a weakness somewhere in your five. If he will tell you, ask him," What am I doing or not doing that is giving you a tell on my pass?"
So remember, when someone stonewalls a portion of your game, it is a sure indicator that portion is not good especially if they do it over and over. What you need to do is recognize the weakness they have realized and do what you need to do to fix it.
ICEMAN.
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My brush series I normally do in the exact same spot, maybe 2 inches off the wall. He was waiting way out there, so I tried just brushing to the inside of him early trying to catch him off gaurd before the ball rolled to the "x" point where I brush. I'm almost positive I brush in a good spot, as I have a friend that show'd me a measurement of a sweet spot to do it and I use it to practice. I'm well aware of how to fake and I can get other guys on it, but this dude is reading me beyond well. Part of the problem I think is he's definately getting into my head, and making me be much more cautious, which is when my 5-man suffers. I do alot better when I just go with the flow. But being relatively new I tend to get frustrated easier than I'd like. I play a couple people that are as good as him and I do alot better against them. The whole "way slower than Billy's" was more of an expression at how quick he seems to do it. I can hit the high stick lane behind the 2nd guy, although its not superquick it gets me by normaly if I choose to use it. Thanks for the tips on the scoop, I'm thinking bout it and I bet your right, that my guy isn't going all the way to the wall. Sometimes I set my mind to passing a certain spot and I just wait for it to open, which doesn't work well against good players. Anyway, thanks for the tips
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Okay, you dun gone and done it. I'm not gonna leave you alone now,lol.
I'm pretty sure you've heard this a million times before and it's true. This game is about 15 to 25 percent physical, the rest is mental. You need to take a step back and re-evaluate your game mentally. For every physical advancement your game makes, you need to make two mental advancements. Even Steve said it, as a TWO year player, you have a lot more to learn. You say you play others as good as him but for some reason, he gives you the most trouble. I'm confused here. Take a mental step back and realize this guy is better than the others because he has a defensive edge on you.
Remember what I said about asking this guy about what he is doing to you? If he does not tell you, I've got a mental game that might help you. Watch him play a match. If he has success in blocking the other guys 5, ask him you noticed how he shut down that guys 5, what was he looking for and what was he looking at. Starting to understand the mental game now? You can gain insight on what he is reading in your pass by learning what he reads in others pass without him even realizing what you are doing. You have chalked up this guys defensive success against you as being in your head when all he has done is shone you have a fundamental flaw somewhere in your offensive. Take a mental step back, re-evaluate your fundamentals.
No offense, but being a 2 year player, your problem is not mental, your not that good yet. Got a question for you. When you brush up, from what side of the ball do you start from? Being a 2 year player, I could be wrong but just guessing here, you probably brush up every time from the wall side of the ball right? If so, that is the tell for your defensive guru. You need to be able to brush up and down from both sides of the ball, that is where the good fakes come in. Maybe you need to learn the brush up from the down side of the ball at the same location. In other words, your up looks like you are about to do a down, understand?
I don't want to seem like an a hole here, I am usually pretty direct when explainging things. Just so you know I've been playing since 88, a touring pro since 96. I've played behind and against some of the legendary 5's in the game. Let's just say I picked up a trick or two.
Any more questions just ask.
ICEMAN
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Just curious FoosFanatic, where are you from and who are your highest ranked players?
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I'm from Lincoln, NE. Hard to say highest ranked. The guy who gives me Problems is Chris Valentine, he goes to Vegas regularly. Mark Davis and Craig Hibbs got 1st and 2nd in 50+ age group in the nation in the last tournament they went to in Vegas, and I believe Hibbs got 2nd in the world in age 50+. I'm not sure if they are playing in open or amatuer or anything like that, as I've never attended a large tournament, other than Foosmania(which doesn't compare to bigger tournaments). There are probably 4-6 guys who go to every Vegas tournaments.
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you were trying to say about the brushing, but I think I do and I can do it. Like come over the ball one way and brush it the other in a quick movement, is kinda what I got outa it.
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Okay, first let me commend all the people in your area for getting together and enabling Mark Davis the opportunity to travel to Italy last year. He now has memories he will not forget for the rest of his life. That's what this game is all about.
It sounds like you understand what I am saying about brushing, however, what I think you might not understand is that this technique is the norm in brush passing. Brush passing is all about deception. There are times when a brush up looks like a brush up, because the movement starts from the wall side, and there are times when that same brush up looks like it was going to be a brush down. Not because you made a quick, different movement, but because that same technique for brushing up was started from the brush down side of the ball. This is what I think you may be missing. What most people don't realize is the best brush passers hover on BOTH sides of the ball at different times and THAT is where the DECEPTION is in a brush series. Does that make sense?
Another tip would be to video tape yourself and analyze it yourself or have a better player look at it for you.
By the way, next time you see Mark Davis, tell him Iceman says hello. Also, the next time I see him, I can give him a practice technique to show you that will help you on your pass.
Keep plugging away.
ICEMAN
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I know Chris V. from KC...he has a better than average defense (on the 5 and strong in goalie - I think his mindset and understanding of goalie is used in principle in his 5 D - he is a good baitor disguising what he is baiting well and he anticipates well...he is probably into your timing as much as anythng...I can tell you though, when Chris played Joe Rhodes, a mature good ProMaster 5bar, Joe had his way with him
I think Chris probably has a read on you that othres haven't picked up on...he may not be able to explain (though he may) because some of it is natural to him and he may have that read and be reacting instinctively unconsiously
Make sure you vary your timing and are sure you are giving anything away - you may want to have someone at Chris' level or higher, watch you and see if they can pick out any tells...otherwise, maybe you could video tape yourself playing at a draw and watch for yourself (this will likely be painful but you will learn all kinds of helpful things)
I can't remember ever disagreeing with something ICE wrote but I don't agree with passing from the same sweet spot...I think I could document this from comments of other top players but even if I can't, just watch the best passer's in the world and it won't take you long to see that they do not pass from the same spot each time (primarily brush passers)...Fred, Terry, Horton, (3 best 5 bars I have seen last 10 years that are not stick passers) Mohs (best brush up I have ever seen), Addkinson (starts a lot of his passes far off the wall)
you probably already know all this but if you can do these things, it will be very very hard to get a read on your pass - last, you know, everyone at every level has someone one or more people they have a hard time with regardless of level because their natural tempos are aligned
do you vary the tempo of your toss...sometimes
do you vary how often you toss before you pass (so do you pass the first toss every time or do you vary it so your timing is unpredicable)
do you go all the way to the wall with your toss and sometimes pass with the ball coming off the wall
do hover over the ball from as far out from the wall as possible as often as possible (depends on toss)
do you sometimes hover without any faking, just follow the wall down toward the wall - lets call this a "Stationary Hover"
do you, from this stationary hover, pass while directly over the ball without faking being able to go wall or lane at any time from as far out from the wall as possible up to as close to the wall as possible? -so, no movement in the opposite direction before passing , lets call this "straight pass" just for illustration
do you sometimes do the Stationary hover, straight pass, but with the man following the ball more on the wall side than the lane side and then vice versa
od you ever do your brush without your man on the ball at all (watch Terry Moore some time, he does this more than anyone else I have watched)
Then do you do all these with a variety of fakes small an large?
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Let me clarify sweetspot, and sorry if I was unclear.
The sweetspot is about two inches off the wall, however, a half inch to either side of this exact point is the area I call the sweet spot. All good brush passers contact the ball in this area 90 percent of the time. The other 10 are passes that draw the opponent well out of position so the ball is not contacted in the sweet spot. For ex., after doing a couple of quick bump ups off the wall your opponent is looking for the next one so this time when the ball comes off the wall, you move as if you will brush it up but in mid stroke when the ball is just leaving the wall, you contact the ball near the wall and brush it down because your opponent has completely bailed on the up.
Like I said before, I have played behind some of the best 5's to play this game. I have played with Tommy, Steve Murray, Charles Britt, Terry, Hossein Kiani( the sickest far wall brush ever, imo, even better than Spear, Bacon, or Jeep), Tom Yore, Rick Macias, Frank Espinosa, Trevor Park, Billy Pappas, Denis Ory, Mike Archer, Joe Rhodes, and yes even Rico. I got to watch these guys 5 men up close and personal and won some titles with some of them. Believe me when I say I know why these guys are successful in their pass series's.
ICEMAN
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well, okay ICE, thanks for the clarification...good, now I don't have to disagree with you so my track record is still 100%
two inches from the wall plus or minus a half an inch - hmmm...I will have to study that...I think I could say that is true but I will spend a chunk of time this weekend working through this series...I can say for sure that I have known and seen some really fine (Tom Spear) players who used an off the wall type brush but with them, I would say that sweet spot is much closer to the wall and that 2-2 1/2 inch mark is the exception...ah, just thinking out loud...
what percentage would you say the best passer pass within that 1 inch range and what percent going outside to keep you honest? I can't wait to put your observation (theory still to me) to the test...i will plot passing from Terry and Rico who I have the most video on and who have the best brushes of the top players in the current era (IMO - notice I didn't say humble because that isn't a good word to describe me :P)
would you be okay with them as examples? Both mix in other passes and sticks, bumps, occasional tic tak, etc...I would do Horton too but I don't have enough video on him and he is more of a hybred passer and I am certain the rules change a little for them - well I assume sweet spots would change (differnt for a stick passer verses a brush passer), the concepts I assume would be the same
ICE, I respect you, I have seen your profile, I know you rub shoulders with top players and have for years and that you are a competent Pro - your experience isn't what sells me, it is the rightess of what you say
i have read some great things from people who weren't top players or really good pros and I have read some really bad advise from the best players...I will judge what you say on the merit of its truth and effectiveness not on your experience alone
after a while, after seeing and testing the things you say (or anyone for that matter) if I find them to be consistently true, which has been true with you all along, then I begin to assume rightness first
so, all that to say, you don't have to prove yourself to me with your background, what you say is good enough - there may come some point where we don't agree but that is life and I will still respect you
have a great weekend
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"ICE, I respect you, I have seen your profile, I know you rub shoulders with top players and have for years and that you are a competent Pro - your experience isn't what sells me, it is the rightess of what you say
i have read some great things from people who weren't top players or really good pros and I have read some really bad advise from the best players...I will judge what you say on the merit of its truth and effectiveness not on your experience alone
after a while, after seeing and testing the things you say (or anyone for that matter) if I find them to be consistently true, which has been true with you all along, then I begin to assume rightness first
so, all that to say, you don't have to prove yourself to me with your background, what you say is good enough - there may come some point where we don't agree but that is life and I will still respect you
have a great weekend"
Man crush... :-*
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two thumbs up 8)
iceman rules
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You guuuuyyysss......stooooppp it.( In my best gay voice )lol.
ICEMAN.
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Sup BB.
Feel free to disagree any time, I'm always up for spirited debate.
If you reread the post I put up for FoosFanatic, and flip the defensive indicators I stated, you will see why the brush works best from the sweet spot of 2 inches.
Imagine if you will( my best Rod Serling voice ) a 45 degree angle. Spit that angle in half and you have 22.5 degrees of options in both directions up and down. Now, as your angle begins to move toward the enemy in brush passing, the wall, in begins to chop your 22.5 deceptive options of going down exponentially. As stated in the post, I can block three of your options down by sitting in one spot and I can block your option up by only moving a half inch. You will never see a top passer attack a top player in this region, the pass is just too easy to block. When I play people who have no understanding of the brush, I will attack this region. I just drag it close to the wall and brush up. This weak technique however does not work against the best players. I have to move my contact point back toward the sweet spot.
Remember what I said about Tommy in that post. He attacks the 2 1/2 region of the sweet spot. His series is a quick stick behind the second guy, a quick shallow up behind that same guy, a steep brush down from the same contact point, and a quick wall that starts the same as the others.Adrian Zamora has a series similar to this, he just tosses more.
Mohs on the other hand, is probably the best pure brush passer out there, he attacks at the very heart of the sweet spot. As of late, Terry, Rob Mares, Terry Rue, and Rico are now doing what I would call the "hybrid toss" technique. Usually brushers toss the ball hover and pass, maybe bump it off the wall, let it approach the sweet spot again, pass. What they are now doing is tossing, small hover, the ball begins to leave the sweet spot but they make contact with the ball to put it back in the spot, and then with the same man approach the other side of the ball to keep it in the sweet spot. The result is there can be no relaxing of the defense because the constant toss and hover within the sweet spot makes them a threat to pass at any time using this technique. It kinda looks like hacky sacking the ball in the sweet spot.
As far as passing outside of the zone to keep you honest, they all do. Just like the best fastball pitchers, 80 percent of the time, the heat is coming, but that other 20 could be a curve or a slider to keep you honest.
Again, in reference to my post about 5 man D, stick passers read perpendicular holes vs. the angular holes brushers read. I've got something for you to think about now. The sweet spot for stickers is not the contact point, it's the release point of the take off. In the brush, the deception is at the contact point of the pass. In the stick, the deception is in the toss. So the concept of stick passing is totally different from brush passing.
So let me how your reseach goes.
ICEMAN
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BB, Check out these two clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBnKNmv55hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N7yod9oKmg&feature=user
The first is Tecball which plays a lot like Tornado. The second is Tornado of course.
Notice Rico, Todd, Trevor, and Billy all base their series's two inches off the wall. You also get to see a little bit of the " hybrid toss " I was talking about.
That is all.
ICEMAN.
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Jesus Brad...we've created a monster. :P
Seriously...The Iceman has become one of the best coaches in the foosball world. At events in Europe I've seen him coaching Bonzini players on Bonzini and Garlando players on the Garlando table. When other players see him giving an impromptu clinic on the pull shot (his specialty) or whatever, they flock to the table hoping to absorb some of the Iceman's infinite wisdom.
Keep up the good work Ice! You are the man!
And if any of you are in Colorado or Vienna or at the local draw, look for the world renowned Iceman, who will be happy to help you out with anything relating to your game. And he'll take your photo too! And he'll show you photos that he has taken at tournaments around the world. And then he'll show you some more...and some more....
;)
Jim Stevens
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Ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Everybody quiet.......... Once again royalty is among us.
First it was Foosdiva Queen Melissa, now..................
ALL HAIL, the one, the only, best pushkicking fooscaster in existence, FOOSBALL HALL OF FAME member..........................
JIM STEVENS ...............................applause...............................JIM STEVENS .................................more applause........................................ JIM..........................................STEVENS....................standing ovation.
No Jim, YOU, DA MAN,........................JIM STEVENS.
Jim is currently working on a system that will allow him to attach his voice to every post so he, I mean everyone can hear him speak.
ICEMAN.
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Brad,
u sooo funny...I don't have a man-crush on the big stud hunk :P - I was just saying he doesn't have to justify himself with who he knows and what he has done
ICE,
I will watch those videos and I am not done with my weekend research but I had a chance to try it out against some of my local foos friends....it is a small sampling but I played for 5 hours or so and it was very very effective (until the drinks were impacting my play :D) - no, very effective...I have been trying to learn to read and pass and to find people's natural bail direction (wall or lane) and their bail point....I found last night, if they were any indication, that the sweet spot is also where most people bail...aside from the angle benefits
now I think my 5 has gotten pretty good, at most any level except the very best players though I have done very well offensively against Kent and Joe Rhodes and Dube...and my 5 is much better since I played them last
I have worked on being a threat up or down at any point during the toss to make it hard to read what direction and where and since I started reading the D (primarily but that is not the only way I attack it) this has become very successful...I mix in occasional stick stuff and i have a couple easy safe tic tac stuff down in the natural flow of how I set up and last I occasionally work of the ball staring pinned on the 52
I had one of the best 5 bar players (non-pro) in our area tell me last night my series has been really working him recently and it is impossible for him to tell when or where I am going...
so, all this has been going well and then you drop the sweet spot sh!# on me...I am always open to learn and I seek new stuff all the time but I also think I know what I am doing and have been thinking I am pretty far in the development cycle...however, you drop something this simple and basic on me when I have developed a very complex hy-bred 5 and it sort of set some pride things off inside me (I noticed over the last 24 hours)
thankfully I am not so stubborn or stupid not to try and learn regardless of what I already know or what I already SHOULD know
all that, to say, "thanks" this just well could turn out to be one of the most productive tips I have employed in a very long time...
jury is still out a little because I want to finish my research but lets just say I think the verdict will be swift
THANKS big boy ;D (thats for Bard)
talk to you soon
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ICE,
...I found last night, if they were any indication, that the sweet spot is also where most people bail...aside from the angle benefits
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Cha ching. Whistles blow. Fireworks go off. Light bulb moment.......give that man a cookie.
YOU GOT IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ICEMAN.
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I should get a trophy or something but I will settle for the benefit...can't wait to work on it more against live defenses
by the way, I have seen the Todd/Rico/Trevor/Billy video many times and had already incorporated Todd and Tevor's approaches...I just didn't see it with the 2 (+ or -1/2) sweet spot concept...it is hard to believe that I have watched 100's of hours of video and never noticed this as a basic pattern
I have gotten all the 10 hour Worlds and a number of full seasons from 1998-2005 and have watched them all many times always trying to learn - it has been helpful, very helpful, and I recommend it highly
at the same time, I always learn more from a person directly...I have spent quite a bit a time communicating with Johnny Lott and during that time I asked him about things and he likes to teach and I got some valueable stuff from that..same with stuff I have read from the many posts on these subjects by good people over the last 2 1/2 years
I was taught my first time around by Jevat Meha (Chicago) but as time goes on, I realize how little I really got because he wasn't the best communicator and I am not certain he knew what the best players knew - I think he was really good as much from natural talent as anything
anyway, I have always shared and taught because it is how I am built and because I have always wanted someone to do the same for me
so, it is nice having a knowledgable source who likes to teach, is a good communicator, and takes the time to explain
this isn't as good as one on one in person stuff but it is as close as you can get if you don't have a qualified teacher livnig near by
what do I mean...heck, I don't know, just talking because this is so interesting and practical ... I consider this sweet spot thing to be a super basic concept that everyone starting to learn a brush should know - my 5 is mature way beyond this physically so that is why this sort of comes as such a shock and has me sort of babeling about nothing
anyway, thanks again...I still owe a report which I will give tommorw or Monday
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ICE,
is this a literal 2 inches from the wall? is it two inches from the edge of the tape?
I was just eyeballing it when I was practicing during play but I just took a ruler to the table and a literal two inches from the wall (not the tape) puts the ball at almost the deepest point you can still do a good brush another 1/2 inch closer and I am not sure even Mohs could do one
it looked like in that trevor/todd video that it looks closer to 3 inches from the wall or about 2 1/2 from the tape
i will be looking at this on video in stop and slow mo but I wanted to hear what you said
once I get this settled, I will put some marks on my table but I want to know for sure before I do that and before I build any bad habits
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Yeah BB, that 2 inches was an eyeball guess at where the spot is from the wall. After taking a ruler to my table, it " is " exactly 3 inches off the wall and goes up to 4. This is the proverbial sweet spot of which I speak. So if you want mark your table at 3 and 4, go right ahead. This area between these two marks is what you need to concentrate on in your brush series.
ICEMAN.
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okay, first report...been watching Fred/Todd against Billy/Trevor 2005 Worlds final...so far, Rico is 100% within that range and his brush up is always at the 2 to 2.5...very close to the wall...his wall varies more but is still within that 3-4 range...the only brush up different is when the ball comes off the wall, usually the lane (not only with Rico on this video but others I have see) is deeper into that SZ (sweet zone)
i have always known, from the very beginning, that closer to the wall is better but I have known that for so long I forgot it as a basic principle...adding that to the SZ and remembering that the closer the ball gets to the wall the more anxious the defense gets feeling they have to comitt one way or the other are together, very powerful
I just find the SZ a much better way for me...it is good to understand both but close to the wall is undefined (for me) and SZ just says it all
what fun...I will give further progress updates, you deserve the feedback
later
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5 game match, went to 4/4 fifth game...Billy was doing a stick so that is another pass for another day but Rico was doing the Brush...he passed all but maybe 2 times within the SZ (not including his quick drop "skippy" pass)...the first out of SZ was a very long off the wall brush down attempt (which was blocked) and the other one (maybe two) were off the wall lane brushes...I think there were two and one was blocked
so, almost 100% in SZ...not a big sample size but I expected to see Rico passing much higher in the zone but since he did so many lane and brush ups, he averaged most of his passes in the lower zone...
I have watched a ton of Rico and he usually goes to the wall much more (percentage wise) and a lot of those are higher up in the zone ... however, when he does a brush up, they are frequently very close to the wall (about 2/1 inches) I was surprised at out close to the wall and how deep they really were in slow mo...not as close or deep as Mohs but I think Mohs is an alien posing as a human and his species developed control of the law of physics which he suspends when doing brush ups