Foosball.com Forums
Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: Old Meister on June 30, 2008, 07:08:14 PM
-
What is it that is done to the balls to make them "fuzzy". I figure that the bars have them sanded somehow but is there a good way to do this. The play is so much different than what I have, which is the good red ball but untouched. Mine squirts out under the pin a lot more than a ball that is "fuzzy". Like I said, probably a dumb question but when you're working on a monster europin deadman pull, well you just have to know,,, ;D
-
a lot of the times i just wash mine and they will refuzz, not sure if the brown marble ( red balls ) was not a slick ball to begain with
ya might have to get new balls , i no i play sometimes at a bar that
has the red balls and i shoot a europin and your right its harder to
pin but i got better at it . i also played on one of the latest gray marbles tornado came out with to me its to grippy and slow i think
if it had the slick red balls it would be better , i think it was one of the tables every one was bitching about a year our so ago its half the table of the brown marble down the street , brand new and already the play surfice top side is spliting at one goal end these guys paid like $1700 to get it. i feel bad cause i told them that was the table to get . hope the new silver ones are better
-
Marty, I did order some new balls and was surprised to see that they were "fuzzy" like the ones at the bar I played at. I was under the impression that they were smooth and people made them fuzzy like that. Like I said, it's probably a dumb question,,
-
the balls come fuzzy and once you are used to it players prefer them that way...they get the fuzzy by tumbling them with a sandpaper...there are a number of articles on the other board telling you how this happens and what to do to recondition older ones
the red sort of shinny, we call tomatoe ball, is stickier and bouncier and is either a bad Tornado batch or is an unoffiical knock off
the fuzzy is more like a nap and disappears after some use...the fuzzy doesn't fall off, which is why you never see little red pieces of ball, but instead, it just is packed back down on the ball so when they are reconditioned correctly, you don't loose any size on the ball you just raise the nap back up
the ball is a little slower when it has the fuzz but the ball control is much better...bar tables rarely change balls so you get to see what happens to them when they are played on over a long period of time...they go through a number of stages but the final stage is they look darker (from dirt) and they get stickier which for a backpin shooter like me is a great thing
there is much talk about Tornado changing to a ball that starts with more control...downside is that means softer ball and that means they don't last as long...there is a balancing act to find a material that is hard enough to take a beating and stay true round and soft enough to provide control...the ball/table should have more control than Tornado does currently for pins but not so much control that a pull shooter can't still do their shot with some adjustments
I am very much looking forward to a ball with a little more control...we will see how this all plays out, the Warrior is looking for the same thing
-
there is much talk about Tornado changing to a ball that starts with more control...downside is that means softer ball and that means they don't last as long...
I am very much looking forward to a ball with a little more control...we will see how this all plays out, the Warrior is looking for the same thing
Judging on the basis of what I've heard so far, they should rather change the feet of the man than the surface of the ball. Everyone agrees on the ball beeing the best. Why not put a stronger ribbing on the feet for more control and leave the high quality ball as it is?
-
you can make them fuzzy by putting a rack or two in a sock and tie the end ..
then throw it in the wash and dry and will come out fairly decent...
we do this then trade the balls out at the bar>>
you can make a tumbler but for only a few balls here and there nt worth the time..
If you want to tumble a few hundred then build one ...
several articles around on how to build one your self
Dave J
-
i am not certain that deeper ribbing would make any difference...the cross-x on the foot provides a good grip I know because I have played on a man on my own table long enough to wear most of it off and it really made control difficult and when I put a new man on the table it was amazing
I never knew how much difference the ribbing made until then...with that said, having deeper ribs I think would only serve to make the ribbing last longer
maybe there is some engineering research that could be done to explore what different rib alignments and depths could provide but none has been done that I have ever heard about...they have explored recently how to deal with the edge of the man and how that impacts banking/angles and there are at least 3 schools of thought on that subject...they have also discussed and explored the idea of have the cross-x go the entire face of the foot but that doesn't address your idea
to get more control on the table you have 3 main options...the material and design of the table surface, the man, and the ball...softer material in any or all of these areas has the chance to create more control
however, softer means more friction and more friction means faster wear...so, you definately can't have the table surface wearing out...and the men wearing faster would not go over well with distributors so that leaves the ball...the same material can be used with slight changes in density...
I am okay with having to replace balls say 15% sooner because it had 15% more control...that would totally and completely rock
I have proposed before...I think there should be a least 2 balls (maybe 3) Novice Ball (beginner or consumer ball) and a "tournmament" ball
The Novice Ball would be same material just much softer and would ship with the table...change color so there is no confusion...this would make it easier for newbies to get started
The Tournament Ball - same red ball as now, just slightly more control with cool logo
-
Hi Tuna,
using a deeper ribbing is one of things Fireball did in order to provide more control (they use the Tornado ball); but they also changed the shape of the feet so that now you pin the ball with a face instead of an edge (I'm not sure the technical terms are correct).
For all of those who don't know: Fireball is a German table that was constructed in order to combine Tornado-like play with the ball control typical for European tables. Their customers seem to think it worked out.
Darn, how can I insert photos from my hard disc in my posts? I wanted to show you guys what the men look like.
-
fireball is a good looking table
I couldn't find close ups on the feet but here are some decent photos
http://fireball-kicker.de/webshop/product_info.php?info=p3_Fireball--Figur-rot.html&XTCsid=430f2063d52524f11afe551baea3b221
http://fireball-kicker.de/webshop/index.php?XTCsid=430f2063d52524f11afe551baea3b221
http://www.a-better-tablefootball.be/fireball.htm
-
You guys are too spoiled .. :P
I played from age 13 to 18 half the time on absolutely square-toed men, where pinning the ball meant control with either knife-edge of the front or back feet of the men. Like the original Deustcher Meisters with the thin feet with raised gridlines.
I also learned to pin & shoot with those miniature soccer balls shaped like real soccer balls. I seriously believe this helped me in Junior High & AFS in Europe, mostly in England, France, Germany Holland & Belgium, roaming around. Of course I came back to Mainland USA with my own foosball handles, :-X, only to find newer Deutscher Meisters and Greentops with the curved feet and grippier (not quite Euro except for that yellow paraffin ball I still love the best) balls.
That was my first inkling of the neurotic, para-psychotic multiple-identity crises of first TS and then Dynamo, Tornado then Valley. New men, new feet, new balls, new rods all too often. I wonder how many serial killers played foosball? I'll bet most of the ones caught were natural forwards, while the natural goalies are probably still working in your local Police department's CSI unit. ::) Or mulching the yard next door.
-
It just kills me how you seem to find all these life's lessons as they relate to foosball. Lol! I remember those box footed tables, seemed like the men were always loose on the bars. The Deutscher Meister is still my favorite, bring it back and make it the only table tournaments are played on and life will be good.
-
I wouldn't mind playing another game or two or fifty again on those old Deutscher Meisters..
But then again, I wouldn't mind having to complain about 99cent a gallon gas again! I remember my Senior Engineer John, in Warren Oh, in 1980, while I was working at Packard Electric(GM), declaring to all he refused to pay 99cents a gallon, loudly and to everyone in Application Engineering. He would absolutely choke nowadays...
I wouldn't mind paying $300 again for my beater Chevy Vega, trying to race to my next destinations before the rusting chassis and body fell completely apart. And pulling a damn U-Haul with it from eastern Ohio to Ames, Iowa to report back to engineering school each year! And seeing my girlfriend lean back and fall all the way back to the rear seat! ;D That was after watching a $3.00 first-run movie, $5 each to dance at a club on the Rte 422 strip in Niles, OH, and hanging out for steakNeggs breakfasts at the Perkins CakeNSteak at 4:30 in the am, $10 for both, with the tip!
Yeah, there're a few things we all need to come back to ... jez lemme get back to fixing that damn time machine... it keeps saying .. "Insert quarter to continue..". And you know as a fooser, I'd rather give up a dollar or a fin before I part with my precious foos units.
-
fireball is a good looking table
I couldn't find close ups on the feet but here are some decent photo
Hi Tuna, some pics that show more details of the Fireball can be found here:
http://www.kickerbau.org/08_foa_05_fb_ulle.html
The Fireball is a very good table indeed; recently, it was ranked first place in all categories of a comparative soccer table test. I've heard the Fireball will be for sale in Canada soon.
-
Hey bodygroove,
I checked out that link... nice! Back in the late 70's, "Kicker" was what all the continental lads called Tisch Fussball. France, Belgium, just about all the Low Countries. So KickerBau is reinvigorated and challenging the Jupiter-Lehmacher combine which took over after the Lowen table & tour, eh? Great to see that name ... Unless it is just the name, as in "buyout".
I always liked the old "Kicker" tables... Nowadays I think they regard it like we regard Deutscher Meisters in the age of Tornado. I do see, however, that they had to have them made in China like everyone seems to do nowadays...
-
Hi Foozkillah!
I checked out that link... nice! Back in the late 70's, "Kicker" was what all the continental lads called Tisch Fussball. France, Belgium, just about all the Low Countries.
Well, in Germany, Foosball is still called "Kicker", which is also the term used for a Foosball table. "Tischfussball" is more of an official name for the game when it is played as a sport.
So KickerBau is reinvigorated and challenging the Jupiter-Lehmacher combine which took over after the Lowen table & tour, eh? Great to see that name ... Unless it is just the name, as in "buyout".
"Kickerbau" (which translates into "the building of foosball tables") is the website of a Foosball fanatic who (surprise!) builds his own tables. All those pictures and descriptions on that website are meant as a ressource for guys who can handle a wood router and want to try their luck in their garages...
I'm not sure if there's any cooperation between Jupiter and Lehmacher, though. As far as I know, the tables for the P4P tour, which is the successor of the Löwen Tour, are built by Lehmacher, while Jupiter is the dominant table manufacturer in Belgium.
I always liked the old "Kicker" tables... Nowadays I think they regard it like we regard Deutscher Meisters in the age of Tornado. I do see, however, that they had to have them made in China like everyone seems to do nowadays...
Yes, the Ullrich and the Fireball are build in China. I guess those little companies did not want to compete angainst Leonhard and Lehmacher, so they had to find another approach. Now they're building tables that are said to have 90 percent of the quality of the "big tables'" at only 40 percent of the costs.
I hope you find these pieces of information interesting...
Regards
Pat
-
Hello Pat!
That's some great information. Our promoter/purveyor/inventor & maintainer of Netfoos.com, Mark Winker, is on his way this Tuesday, to help Inside Foos Video productions and also to play on the US Team at the Euro TecBall championships in Germany.
I always saw Jupiter and Lehmacher tables advertised on the various foos sites, often on the same page .. probably why I always thought they were from the same maker. My last contact and update late last summer was when Suzanne who now plays at Our House, Boston, and her friend Suzie traveled down the coast in a two-damen invasion along the US Eastern Seaboard on the way down to the Florida Keys. They're from Dieter Mueller's longtime group, I believe, and longtime Jupiter and Lehmacher players.
Which is also why I'm now confused. I only first heard about TecBall from my former junior high and foos friend Rene Saner, who's from Lucerne but works in Lichtenstein. The German championships are now on TecBall? Are they from the same manufacturer or are they muscling out Jupiters and Lehmachers with money and tournaments?
-
Hi Foozkillah!
That's some great information.
I'm glad you found that interesting!
Our promoter/purveyor/inventor & maintainer of Netfoos.com, Mark Winker, is on his way this Tuesday, to help Inside Foos Video productions and also to play on the US Team at the Euro TecBall championships in Germany.
Cool! I hope they'll have a nice weekend.
Which is also why I'm now confused. I only first heard about TecBall from my former junior high and foos friend Rene Saner, who's from Lucerne but works in Lichtenstein. The German championships are now on TecBall? Are they from the same manufacturer or are they muscling out Jupiters and Lehmachers with money and tournaments?
Allright, I'll try to break it down for you:
Jupiter - Rico's home table. Manufacturer: John Gille Company, Belgium
Lehmacher - Manufacturer. Builds the P4P (which is often simply referred to as "Lehmacher"), the official table of the biggest tour in Europe (which doesn't belong to the ITSF, though), and the Tecball, which is the table of the German Foosball Association (the German part of the ITSF).
And compared to the prize money payed in the USA, Europe is a developing country.
If you'd like to learn more about German foosball structures, feel free to ask.
Regards
Pat
-
Thanks Pat!
That sure clarifies it! And I'll forward this to Mark at Netfoos!
-
Hi Foozkillah,
I could have gone more into the details, but I didn't have the time when I wrote that post. For example, because of a conflict between the P4P-Tour and the DTFB (Deutscher Tischfussballbund = German Table Soccer Association), Lehmacher had to outsource the production of the Tecball to a subcompany, so that the official manufacturer of the Tecball is NOT Lehmacher.
And the Tecball is not the DTFB's only table. Each League can choose it's own table from a variety of certified models...
You see, it's a little complicated.
-
Hi Foozkillah,
I could have gone more into the details, but I didn't have the time when I wrote that post. For example, because of a conflict between the P4P-Tour and the DTFB (Deutscher Tischfussballbund = German Table Soccer Association), Lehmacher had to outsource the production of the Tecball to a subcompany, so that the official manufacturer of the Tecball is NOT Lehmacher.
And the Tecball is not the DTFB's only table. Each League can choose it's own table from a variety of certified models...
You see, it's a little complicated.
Thanks again,
So Lehmacher designed and outsourced the Tecball? Interesting. I wonder who's going to dominate?
-
Hi Killah,
yes, Lehmacher designed the Tecball. Both the P4P and, increasingly, the Tecball, can be found in a lot of places in Germany. From what I've heard, they play very similar (I haven't played the Tecball yet. I'm only a rookie with very little experience).
The P4P is still the dominating table for two reasons:
Firstly, it is the modern version of the Löwen table, which is still the standard table in most bars. Now, when a bar owner has to replace his old table, he is very likely to do so by choosing a P4P as a replacement. Lehmacher's most relevant competitor is Leonhard, whose tables are indistinguishable from the Lehmachers by a layman (except for the colors). Leonhard also used to build the old Löwen tables for most of the time.
Secondly, the P4P Tour is THE foosball tour in Europe. For example, Billy and Rico play on that tour, as well as the best German and Swiss players. So whoever wants to practice his skills with the biggest tour in mind will buy a P4P for his basement.
Future developments are hard to anticipate. One would have to take into account where the game is going in general, which new tables have a chance to prevail in the market, what the ITSF and P4P will be doing in the future, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say that the Lehmacher P4P will continue to be the dominant table for at least another 5 or 10 years. But who knows? The Fireball, for example, seems to be on the rise at the moment. If the manufacturers will be able to get their table into a well paid tour, it could break Lehmacher's dominance very quickly, since the official tournament table can be purchased for less than half of the price of a P4P. We'll have to wait and see...
-
Hi guys,
I played alot back in the late 70s early 80s. The other day my daughter dragged me into the local habitat for humanity store to look for some things we could use to do a little remodeling here at the house. I stumbled over a foosball table, and after looking it over it was in good shape, so I bought it. The men are the common hard plastic ones. I remember playing with men that were of a hard rubber. The hard rubber gave the feet excellent ball control especially with what we used to call toe shots. After searching the internet looking for men that are made from the hard rubber, I thought I found them so I ordered them and they are the same as the ones I already have. Does anyone know where I can find the ones I'm looking for, or do they not make these anymore, or have I lost my mind and they never did?
-
I don`t remember any hard rubber ones what kind of table is it.
-
I don't know what kind of table it was, just a coin op barroom type job. Also, I could swear the rods had a spring on each end, but I don't see anything like that on any tables for sale online.
-
Foosball Match had hard rubber men and cork balls. I think Deutscher Meister also had hard rubber men but used the plastic balls. Mirco might have had hard rubber men.
I haven't seen one of these tables in over 30 years, so my memory is a little weak when it comes to....What was the question?
-
Sounds like a Deutscher Meister.
-
I don't know what kind of table it was, just a coin op barroom type job. Also, I could swear the rods had a spring on each end, but I don't see anything like that on any tables for sale online.
Didn't it have a surface with the brand name, like Deutscher Meister or something on it? Hard brittle rubber or compound would make the men you remember the Deutscher Meister players. Of course the hard plastic ones you saw may have been any of a number of older tables, or even an early Tornado. You would probably do well to get a table with matching men.
-
...what does banking means in table soccer?
Greetz Fastert
-
to "bank" is to hit the ball off a wall when you shoot...like using a bumper in pool
most common is from goalie position (the 2 bar) and then some from the forward position (3 bar)
some tables are built in such a way that they are easier to bank on than other tables and that is what comes up from time to time in this forum
Tornado, the table most used in the US for competition, has never been very good for for banking (so say the vast majority of people although there are one or two that say otherwise)...many of us though have played on tables where you could bank with skill and those of us who play on Tornado miss it
-
It was my understanding that each Kicker club would have their specified table, and when they played a match in another town, they'd have to play on that towns home table. At least in Ostfriesland there was a small developed league of amteurs and semi-pros. You would see people playing on any variety of tables, but you would most often see, Lowen, P4P, Leonhart and there were a couple tornado teams when I was there back in 02. I remember how excited we all were when the pub I played in picked up a new Lowen table to replace the old old leonhart they had in there for years.
I should have kept in contact with some of my foosball buddies from my time over there, because I'm actually very interested in the Fireball table that was released recently in Germany. Seems to be very similar to the Warrior table here. It's a 1 goalie system with tornado style feet.
-
It was my understanding that each Kicker club would have their specified table, and when they played a match in another town, they'd have to play on that towns home table.
As far as I know, that is still so.
I should have kept in contact with some of my foosball buddies from my time over there, because I'm actually very interested in the Fireball table that was released recently in Germany. Seems to be very similar to the Warrior table here. It's a 1 goalie system with tornado style feet.
Some information, along with some pics, can be found on their website: http://fireball-kicker.de/webshop/
The idea behind the Fireball is to have feet on the men that allow Tornado-style playing as well as the common European pinning techniques. The developers (two German pro-masters) wanted to use the Tornado ball, which is much more robust and rolls more true than the lightweight balls of the German L-tables, and still be able to execute a consistent Euro Pin. They achieved this by designing feet that pin the ball with a face instead of an edge. As a result, you can play Tic Tacs and Pull Shots like on a Tornado an Euro Pins like on a German table (not exactly, that is, but much easier than on a Tornado).
The table has hollow rods, weighs 250lbs and is reported to be build to last even under aggressive conditions. I'll get the chance to play on one next week, and I'll let you know what it feels like, in case you're interested.
-
Yeah, I'm pretty curious how the table plays. Seems like a very good concept, a fusion of play styles merging onto one table. I really enjoyed the format and team play that the german foosball leagues developed, however it's simply not as practical to have such a format in the U.S where everybody is so far spread out. Hell I can't even find a table and somebody to play with, much less a league.
-
to "bank" is to hit the ball off a wall when you shoot...like using a bumper in pool
most common is from goalie position (the 2 bar) and then some from the forward position (3 bar)
some tables are built in such a way that they are easier to bank on than other tables and that is what comes up from time to time in this forum
Tornado, the table most used in the US for competition, has never been very good for for banking (so say the vast majority of people although there are one or two that say otherwise)...many of us though have played on tables where you could bank with skill and those of us who play on Tornado miss it
Thanks BB.
I trained a little bit on the bankshot on my Tornado at home and at first it seemed impossible to do because when I tried to shoot a hard bankball, I noticed that I hit the 5-rod in the air. Then I started to put less power in the shot until I found the wright speed so the ball wasn't lifted and stay below the rods and went into the goal. So it's possible to do it good on a Tornado but you have to do it with a controlled speed.
Greetings,
Fastert
-
well, i have had this discussion on this and the other forum a number of times before...you were doing banks at slower speeds but I would be willing to bet you couldn't do 18-19 out of 20 in a row...plus you need to be able to do them at varying speeds from different spots both ways with both men
there are a handful of people who, at least one on this forum, say they can do banks consistently on Tordando and that all it takes is some time
I would have to see it to believe it but lets say there are one or two in the country who can, they are the exception
the rule is, because of the shape of the man's foot, the edge, which is not straight-the leading edge as well as the fact that the front of the foot has a crooked line ---\ and the white tape which the ball jumps up when it runs up the hill
you can not do banks on the current Tornado models...this is the general principle but like anything, you can always have an exception but the exception doesn't disprove the general principle
-
On this moment I have to agree with you, but.....I will train further and try to be an exception... ;)
Thanx for the info BB. :)
Greetings Fastert
-
banks are really fun-it will be great when the primary tournament table in the US is good for banks - i am looking forward to hit very much
-
to "bank" is to hit the ball off a wall when you shoot...like using a bumper in pool. Most common is from goalie position (the 2 bar) and then some from the forward position (3 bar). Some tables are built in such a way that they are easier to bank on than other tables and that is what comes up from time to time in this forum. Tornado, the table most used in the US for competition, has never been very good for for banking (so say the vast majority of people although there are one or two that say otherwise)...many of us though have played on tables where you could bank with skill and those of us who play on Tornado miss it.
As I explained in another thread, any table with lowered feet, Tornado, Shelti, Warrior or other table, where the bottom of the feet are lower than the midpoint of the ball, will make banking less effective, due to the physics.
The allowable area for a banked ball at or near the floor (skipping) is definitely decreased, because a ball has to clear a Tornado player's feet with no tolerance! You cannot fit from the side any ball underneath the player unless the player's at a very high angle!
With narrower feet (Dynamo, TS, Garlando, Bonzini, P4P, etc..) and being further from the floor, the ball has extra area and clearance to go almost 1/6 under a player! You can shoot great bank shots on a Tornado or similarly footed table, but you have less open area under the 3bar, 2bar and especially the 5bar to get through. Do the math. Imagine an area under the 5bar spanning the width of the table, and the height of the foosball. The clearance with the players (straight down especially - hint to those defending banking insane maniac goalkeepers) is a lot less under Tornado and similar players than the old Dynamo or TS players, especially with the wider squared off Tornado feet.
That's also why good zones work even more effectively on Tornado and similarly footed tables! The best dead-on bankers and those who have 3-4 options will still get banks through, but it certainly is harder. And the more practice and hours it needs to learn pinpoint banking, not to mention the adjustment to having to make sure you hit above the midpoint or right on it.
Improving players will naturally see more improvement with "straight through" shots much more quickly. So of course the goalkeepers will concentrate on basic shots with the stiffer and more reliable Tornado-type players, not to mention passing to the forward, where the larger goal and the dominance of today's rollovers and pull shots makes the advantage that of clearing for a higher percentage to the forward.
The only effective and most common bank I have seen employed on tables like Tornado is the 5bar bank to the near goal corner. A shorter distance, with less skipping to get fouled up by one of the outer goalkeeper rods, once the the 5bar has been cleared. The goalkeeper's 2bar players are also naturally set to prevent the straight-in shot, forcing the other 2bar player way out of the bank line. Alas, most defenders get repulsed by it because they believe most of them are inadvertent and "slop". This can be seen with mis-hits when doing an off-the-wall brush down from the near or far 5bar player, which can turn easily into a bank into the near goal corner. Ever seen that? Sound familiar?
-
the reason tornado is hard to do consistent bank shots is because the edge of the ball is rounded and has sort of 7 edge and because the tape down the edge makes the ball jump
it has been proven that if you fix the edge of the man and the white strip (lower or remove it) that you can do banks very effectively
if the man is too low, which I do not believe is the issue, than you could just strike the ball when the ball is a little further back
a man with the foot higher might give you more flexibility on the ball positioning, I couldn't say for sure but the logic seems strong
-
I only shoot bank shots from the two rod. I used to be able to play two different banks with some precision. One would double as a pass, where I wouldn't bank the ball, but try to brush it through the wall hole on the 5 rod.
5 days until I get my table. Then I'm going to start practicing up a storm. My roommate is either going to love or hate the sound of the ball rattling the back of the goal... The ideal situation is I could get him hooked on Foosball!
-
have friends over and play on his team against other people, that way he can taste victory first and decide to like it(assuming you are better than the friends you invite over)
-
I've asked everyone I work with, and a few other people if they play. I've only had two biters who said, "I play some foosball." Of course the following question is, "do you spin the rods". When the answer is no, then I say that they should come over and play.
I manage a restaurant, and my plan is that if I ever get a warrior table on top of the tornado table I'm getting next week, is to put that table at the restaurant in the break room. If employees wanna play on their day off, I could probably convince the owners to just let them come and play. Although I suppose a foosball table could be considered a HUGE distraction from my actual job at hand, but I'm a low salaried employee who works 55 hours a week during the busy season, and 35 in the slower.
Anybody have any other tips on spreading the foos bug?