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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: bbtuna on August 20, 2008, 11:29:14 AM
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Okay, I gotta say something...can't vent on the other board so here goes...there is a thread over there called Why Rico Dominates USA Players ! (http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8651&sid=efbf602319b8027cda561bc05900676b)
the title was meant to grab people's attention because Greg had something to say about tournaments...I don't want to talk about that on this thread...as Greg’s thread goes on, people start to talk about why Rico Dominates
I NEVER PRACTICE (and I am proud of it)
there is a discussion about who practices etc and this is the point of this thread...over the last couple years, I can't tell you how many times I have read from Billy, Brandon, Lou, and Frenando, to name a few, how they never practice, the game is boring, nothing to play for etc
I have heard this "I don't practice” mantra from other players at other levels as well...I totally respect the skills and experience that Billy and the others have developed over the years so I am trying to be respectful however I totally disrespect people saying “I don’t practice”
these people, the top players and others I have read that say "I don't ever practice" say it like it is some sort of badge of honor..."Look how good I am and I never practice" or is it saying to me "This game is stupid, I don't know why I bother, I don't care if I win or loose" and/or "I am not motivated and I don't care (oh, and I am going to kick most of your butts anyway)"
Where is the drive, where is the fire, where is the passion to be the best? Not because there is money in it, unless you are Rico winning everything in sight you aren't going to make any money playing foosball (or barely enough to pay your way) - where is the "love of the game" and the passion to redefine the sport
there have been many examples in history of games or sports which paid little or nothing that had dedicated players who gave their life to being the best they could be during their era - Why did they do it? PRIDE, a PASSION to BE THE BEST, and/or a Love of the Game
as far as I know, there is not ONE person like this in foosball today NOT ONE...that is shameful, I am embarrassed about it...oh, you see players in the beginning of their career dedicate themselves (this is how they vault to PM when they are young i.e. Ryan, Kane, Daniel, Blake) but no one continues
what would the sport look like today if there were 3 to 5 players who worked at their craft 4 to 8 hours a day, every day, year in and year out for their entire career 20 to 30 years...UNTHINKABLE what might happen.
If you don’t practice, don’t brag about, don’t whine about how little foosball has to offer and it isn’t worth your time…keep quiet and at least leave people with the idea that you must practice as good as you are…respect the sport or leave it...or better yet, get after it and redefine the sport
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No practice that must be what there doing befor there matches off in a corner alone on a table..
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i am not talking about practicing a couple weeks before a tournament or at a tournament...do you think that is how MJ, Bird, Phelps created the careers they had? besides, that isn't practice, it is warm up
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Foosball isn't Basketball or swimming. It's not athletic. If Phelps stops training for two weeks, any little girl can swim rings around him, because how well you swim mainly depends on your condition. But Foosball is about skills. Once you've taught your body how to do something, it can do it. Very little practice is needed to keep your level, at least compared to athletic sports.
But I still think you're right. The problem with foosball is that except for the foosers themselves, no one cares about it, no one likes to watch it, no one pays any money for anything in Foosball. That means there is no real competition. It's that simple.
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body, thanks for the reply however
yes, endurance sports require special conditioning but the kind of practice that Larry Bird and MJ and Pistol Pete Maravich put in in BB was not primarily conditioning
my analogy could be moved to art and music...the top players today have proven that when you get to a certain level you can maintain 90-95% of that with a minimalist approach to "practice" (warm up really in their case)
but what about someone who wasn't satisfied with their skills and where is the person who wants to push the envelope on the sport redefining the sport?
I am not saying no one cares about foosball, I am saying no one cares like totally crazy life-time maniac committment
no one pays anything, that is true, no one (but foosers), for now, like to watch foosball and that is true but that is my point...where is the totally sold out person who doesn't care about that stuff and will sacrifice anything to acheive goals and set records and redefine the game? Where is the passion, the long-term enduring passion?
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It`s in the beginners,rookies, and amteur classes these are the driveing force in foos, They watch it breath it and play every chance they get, if they get beat they can`t wait to try again. I have not seen any excitment in a big finales match since the 70s Tony Bacon shows excitement,now its just another match Speederman vs. Ryan on utube good match like watching paint dry. We need to put the prize money back in the lower classiffications I hate to say it but J Horton is the Ali of foos .Thats the desire and drive to be the best you cant stop people like that they will play harder than anyone to win. That is for the most part gone today..
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Thebodygroove,
I don't know as much about foosball but I suspect it's a perishable skill. Sure, you can beat most folk if you're great, but you will lose a step. Besides foosball, I also do IPSC/USPSA shooting. Some of that is athletic, but some of it is finite motor skill like you talk about. If you don't practice it, you lose it. Watch some videos of top shooters on You Tube and you'll see why. I'm nowhere near as good at foosball as I am at shooting, but I think it probably has roughly equivalent perishability to say, practicing trigger pull, which is indeed perishable.
Now, my trigger pull will always be better because I spent years doing hundreds or thousands PER DAY with and without live ammo. So yeah, I could probably still do OK. But I think BBTuna's point about "where would the sport be if everyone practiced like that" is spot on. You see that in IPSC and USPSA. Some of the finishes among the top shooters are just impossible close. I'm a little surprised it's not like that here, but like I said, I've only been playing competitive foosball for 1 year (and not very competitively), whil I've been shooting competitively for almost 20.
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Maybe you've heard of their work ethic and committment to the game? Yea, they had something to play for, but I think this kind of person does this for themselves more than anything else...money alone won't sustain this kind of drive...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y5KAaercTI
listen to 1:30 seconds the further the video goes along, the better it gets in terms of watching his game
isn't there somebody who wants us to remember their name? (some bad language on the song that plays with this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFxXSXGd4hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU
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foosball errods slowly...it isn't dependent on 1 or 2 strokes...lots of variables so if you have a ton of skill built up you will loose what you have slowly...however, you loose the "edge" faster than you think...that is why Terry Moore stopped winning...it isn't his ability, competiveness, pressure play, etc...it is that he has lost that little edge that seperates the top couple from the rest
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I agree with you on that, I didn't play :-[ for almost 4 years, and when I picked the game back up I noticed that I lost the sharp look on the game a little, but WITH training and a lot of playing it's coming back slowly, so what you say on that somebody trains from the beginning till the end, I think he will keep the sharpness and evolve the play.
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Fastert, that is exactly it
I am looking for legendary passion like stories I hear of musicians who gave their lives, broke and living in poverty, to pursue their love and some of them, eventually got enough notice that we now know them but even if they were never "discovered" they would have continued to play because they loved it
every so often, a creative genius is born and that is what I am talking about
it isn't practice alone, it is passsion...realy passion will bring practice or "whatever it takes" to learn, grow, and win
who will redefine foosball with a devoted passionate full lifetime of foos? Fred is the closest I have seen in my lifetime (51)...in the TS years there were a bundle of people committed to 8 hour plus days and because of it people came out of nowhere with greatness but all of them died out one at a time with the exception of Todd and even he eventually stopped practicing
what might happen if Fred or Billy or Tony or Terry or the young up and comers (Ryan, Nate, etc) commiited themselves fulltime everyday, 7 days a week (4 to 10 hours of practice/work out a day) for the next 3, 5, 10 years...who knows what the face of foosball would look like then and what bar would be set for everyone else wanting to attain greatness
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That is a huge sacrifice for what to be know as the great fooser I mean that would be cool but it does not pay. You could work a minimum wage job and make more money than the greatest fooser (that sucks).
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yes, I agree but there are people throughout history who pursed something with great unparalleled passion just because they loved what they did and/or they were captured by the vision of seeing what could be accomplished in their field of interest
the money and fame aren't there, but that doesn't mean the passion for greatness has to be missing, it just means when it is there, it is more pure.
Where is the passion?
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Interesting post Bbtuna. When I stopped playing in the early 80's I was heartbroken as I was at the top of my game with nowhere to play. I was playing really good pros in Portland and beating them and then the bottom dropped out. Through all those years I would relive those matches that mattered and think about the shots I did to beat those great players. So when I came back to the game I expected to be able to perform as I had. You suggested "American Idol syndrome" when you read my posts. As became acquainted with today's game, on Tornados, I saw some truth in that statement I guess. But the truth be known I know where I will end up at in my game because it's still there inside and I'm getting closer and closer to again being that player. So someday I will hopefully get to play or partner with you and show the color of my game. I now have a brown marble coin-op to get real on and it's happening, passion is definitely there,lol. I practice all the time, every day, with the top guys videos in mind.
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OM,
I can totally relate to where you are at and when I talked about assessing your skills, I was doing it with my own journey in mind...I thought I would have it all back in 3 to 6 months, a year max but it has been a much slower journey than that
however I can say i am better in every way now than I was then except pure lateral speed and consistent execution...I think at my age, those are permanent issues
however, I can say I was a person with the vision I talk about here...well, close, since I didn't keep going, I guess I really didn't have it...however, I know what the dream is aned I know what it is to put in 12-18 hours a day 6-8 hours of personal practice
i would love to play sometime, lets see if we can make it happen sometime next year
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Hey Tuna,
I think this is a very interesting thread, and I've been wondering about the passion-question myself. The analogy to music is particulerly interesting, but I guess this comparison is problematic. Music is art, and art means that you feel something inside that needs to be expressed, whatever the costs may be. For an artist, there's simply no other way of living. I'm not sure if you can get the same out of a game like foosball, even though it can be quite addictive. After all, it's just a game. I'm not saying your personality can't be expressed through playing foosball, but I think the competitiveness of the game makes a difference. It's about playing and winning. You still feel good if you win even if you weren't able to express your thoughts and feelings through your game.
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foosball is one of the greatest games...maybe not from a spectator's perspective (though I can't say for sure if that is proven because no one with production cabability and creativity has tried to market it)
I love music and I have very ecclectic tastes, Blues, Jazz, Rock, Alternative, classical, etc - I am inspired by greatness, originality, and emotion...music often inspires me to work at my foosball game from a purely art side
what makes foosball great in my mind is the combination of things that make it such a compelling game/sport ... foosball is all at the same time
physical coordination/athletic capability (at least upper body)
physics
strategy
competition/mental toughness
and ART/creativity
I am aware much of the time of the creative expression of the game and how, if our game is matured enough, it can be a unique expression of our creative personality...I often go to the table to practice with this in mind
I am aware that full expression can't come without full control and that is a VERY VERY BIG job...it is like a muscian who works on the basics and studies other musicians before they fully develop their own unique style...eventually, if you can get beyond the basics, which takes significant dedication, you will have a totally unique game
if you filmed the top players but only showed the table (no picture of hands or body) you can identify the player by their unique style...no one illustrates this point better than Tony Spree , no one's game is more creative and unique - still, i could tell Rico, Todd, Rob, Terry, Billy, Brandon, etc...
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Tuna,
I do think the passion is gone as you say...I sometimes feel that I am one of the only ones who still has the passion. I think about foosball all the time. I think of trying to improve my backpin..how I could slow it down..how I could move it around and take my time..how I could do all kinds of things I don't do in a match cause I wasn't thinking the way I should have. Wishing I could go to the bigger tournys but can't cause of the money.
I was in our local paper about 25 yrs ago and I said that I dream of foosball and dreaming up new ways to shoot. Well here it is years later and I still do. I may not be a PM in points because I don't have the money and the ability to go to these big tournys and earn the points, but I can tell you I am one of those guys who really loves this game to the fullest and ability wise I feel if I could afford to go and be a part of the tour I know I have the skills that it takes and I could be. But then what.....you hit a wall...I was at our state tourny and talking to some PM's there and they were saying that sometimes it's not worth coming cause they are only able to play 1-2 events....and it was more fun to be at the lower level cause they were able to play more events..That's not to say they don't want to be PM's but you see where I'm going. I have about as much passion in this game as there is I truley do...When I did have a table I practiced 5-8 hrs a day everyday and won for two months straight...and was on cloud nine!!!! I too wish there was this PASSION for the game as we have obviously it Tuna but until it is something where people can see it as a sport that other people can watch and be interested in I don't see the peope in this sport caring enough to be so passionate about it. The money shouldn't be the deciding factor but I think it is for most...and that's too bad....cause I too think the world of this sport (game).
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bbtuna what you play foosball because of music? like art?do you like pink roses too? gay just plain gay...sniff..sniff
post whore....
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I will let that go since you misunderstood my original post but that was more my fault than yours...I thought about prefacing it with an explanation but I "assumed" this thread would show you I am behind your committment
it is very very rare these days for anyone to put that kind of time into developing their game and much less who sustain it over a long period of time
I would do nothing to dampen your enthusiasm (at least on purpose) and more importantly, I would do whatever I could to encourage you to keep after it
Keep us updated on how it goes and what kind of progress you make accordingly...I challenge you to keep after that for at least 6 months and then evaluate the impact then and then I hope you will be a practice freak for the next couple years and then we will see your name often in the winners circle of tournament accross the country
practice by yourself
play with friends
play local dyp's
play regional and national tournaments
all of these need to be there if you want to be a top player...it takes a ton of money and time to make this happen because the tournaments are so darned expensive but if you can sustain it for 2-4 years you will be a top player
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I´m sorry to say this, but this thread makes me angry.
I´m sure you have passion for the game bbtuna, but why haven´t you sacrificed everything to be the greatest fooser ever? Until you can´t come up with a real good answer I would take back the insults against several PMs. I´m sure Billy Pappas sacrificed more than anyone else here on the board for this sport and he achieved everything possible in this sport. It´s easy to talk about people not practicing anymore and how they have no passion for the game while your sitting on your couch with your laptop on your legs. You make "becoming the sports greatest" sound like a beautiful fairytale, in which people sacrifice everything to become a legend in this game no matter how many obstacles he has to overcome.
But that´s not quite how it is. People need to EARN MONEY. That means practicing in the evening, most of the time being tired from work, having lost the energy over the day. I have a lot of passion for this game and I´d love to live the beautiful fairytale you describe, but it´s simply not possible unless you have rich parents/won a million dollars/practice under a bridge.
I´m practicing everytime I have a free minute, but I don´t blame anyone for not doing so, especially not those who already sacrificed a lot in their lifes for a sport that has nothing more to offer than fame in a small community of crazy fooslovin people.
Greets,
Jonny
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Jonny,
I am respectful to the Pro-Masters I mention, I am not blaming them. I am entitled to an opinion good or bad and regardless if I can do it. I am 51 years old and my opportunity for this greatness has passed and I like all these others, let life take over from my passion for foosball.
more shortly, gotta run
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Jonny,
Billy accomplished more by age 13 than I am likely to ever...there are two points I am making, the first is that there is a trend among players to brag about not practicing and regardless of how great the players are, I do not respect that
I am a HUGE fan of Billy's and others mentioned and I know the potential they have and that brings me to my second point...as a fan, not as a player, and not as someone who will show you how, as a fan I am disappointed that the game doesn't have one or more people who are totally sold out
I understand the obstacles – people have to earn a living, marriage, family…all the same reasons I stopped in 1980…I am a dreamer and idealist and I love to see talent that rewrites a sport…MJ and Tiger being examples but I could list many many from various sports
In the end, foosball doesn’t allow people to make a living…maybe one or two could eek out a living but that is it out of all the players in all the world…that is another problem for another thread
My point here is history is replete with examples of people who redefined their area of interest apart from money…many lived and died without fully realizing the impact they made you see it in art, music, sports, etc
I long for someone who rises above all the barriers…the players I named have all gone far beyond me, no question about that and I have learned a lot watching them and have enjoyed seeing the amazing things they have done
But that does not stop me from wishing for more…I can tell you with great regret, that if I had it all to do over again, I think I would have kept my passion alive and driven forward…but whos to say really, even knowing what I know today, maybe I would cave in the pressures of life but in that case, I would still wish for someone stronger and better than me to reinvent foosball as we know it
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yes, I agree but there are people throughout history who pursed something with great unparalleled passion just because they loved what they did and/or they were captured by the vision of seeing what could be accomplished in their field of interest
the money and fame aren't there, but that doesn't mean the passion for greatness has to be missing, it just means when it is there, it is more pure.
Where is the passion?
BBT,
I thought you knew! I've met and played with dozens of potential lifetime devotee up'n'comer beginners and rookies, showing them drills, practicing with them for hours at a time. Maybe 30-40 minutes a day...
Then they go home and pick up their Nintendo Playstation or WII controllers and play for about 3 hours .... then, they knock off, exhausted, Then they go to their rooms, turn their internet on and send a million e-mails, play online poker & SMS text's for the next 12 hours. That's where they and all that passion went.
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FK,
you can obviously smell what the Rock is cookin...you forgot Guitar Hero dude, I am so disappointed
those things hold you like a zombie and foosball takes a serious act of the will
I am old and fat and way past my prime but after a nearly 25 year layoff I still force myself to get up and work at the table everyday and have for 4 years...I am 51 and continue to improve
even now, I am motivated to see if I can get in 2 hours a day again like I was doing the first 2 years back and I long for 3, 4, 6, and 8...I miss the 8 hour sessions I did for a while first time around
this doesn't make me good and this doesn't make me a better person or player than anyone else, but it is the reason i am passionate about passion
those who can play post...no, I mean, those who can play practice...ah, I mean well, I am a nobody who loves the art and science of the sport and would can't wait to see someone totally reinvent the game
that person is out there
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FK,
you can obviously smell what the Rock is cookin...you forgot G***** **** dude, I am so disappointed
those things hold you like a zombie and foosball takes a serious act of the will
No BBT!!!
YOU mentioned the FORBIDDEN NAME from the UNHOLY ONES!!.
WE are all disappointed!!!
More young foosers are now DOOMED !!
Ohhh, dah Howwah .... dah Howwah!![/color]
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those who can play post...no, I mean, those who can play practice...ah, I mean well, I am a nobody who loves the art and science of the sport and would can't wait to see someone totally reinvent the game
that person is out there
BB, dude, give it a rest will 'ya. You're giving life to dead thread for no reason. Maybe if you were on tour, you would realize what was going on and who really had the passion. What you should do is laugh at statements like that because reading between the lines it means they have set in place a reason for not winning the big matches and have become satisfied with placing 2,3, or 4. So for me when they complain about losing, their excuses fall on deaf ears. If you've got the talent, put the time in it takes to win. Now a fully practiced player that gets BEAT, I'm all ears.
Like I said earlier, if you were on tour, you would realize these people are out there and they are right under your nose.
Six months before Worlds, a player has a fall and BREAKS his back. He is told by doctors he will be down for a year. Two months out, he is at a tourney playing in a full back brace. Not only does he show up at Worlds, he beats everyone including the World's best player, Rico, to claim the Open Singles Championship. He also wins the Masters Singles Championship. He did this with unmatched intensity and unrivaled ability that amazed everyone. And oh yeah, HE HAS REINVENTED THE GAME.
You ask where is the Passion, where is the work ethic? I ask, where the hell have you been?
Do I need to mention his name? Really do I?
TONY SPREDERMAN.
The most unique, focused, driven, and hardest working player out there. PERIOD.
And there are many others like him.
So BB please, direct this negative energy elsewhere. The player you so yearn for IS HERE AND PLAYING. For some reason, you have forgotton about him.
PLEASE, LET THIS THREAD DIE FOR PETE'S SAKE.
P.S. Who in the hell is Pete,lol.
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> MJ and Tiger being examples but I could list many many from various sports
List one that doesn´t have millions on his bankaccount.
I totally agree with ICE. Tonys one of the best examples. And there are far more out there.
I´ve been doing all kinds of sports, but never have I played a game where the people are so crazy and addicted then in foosball. The passion of the foosers is unmatched by any other sport I´ve been playing. To be honest, I don´t know how it is in the USA, but I´m sure the players are burning just like they do here in Europe.
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BB, dude, give it a rest will 'ya. ... Maybe if you were on tour, you would realize what was going on and who really had the passion.
Uh oh. Now you're in trouble! HAHAHAHAHA!!
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whoaa :o now I guess I touched a nerve or two...I guess there are a couple of people who can not smell what the rock is cookin :P
ICE, now simmer down friend... I didn't bring this thread back although I won't apologize for it because I am right :P
and if Tony is that guy then I am thrilled to the max, he definately has the unique game, and spirit, and having met him before he is a super class act I would be proud to call him friend or son in the case of our age differences (he is actually 4 years younger than my son)
and don't bring up if I tour or not, it is not relevant...you didn't say anything I didn't know even though I wasn't on tour...by the way, I went to MO States just for you 8)
main point of my post originally was around those who say they don't practice like it is a badge of honor...I don't care if they win, it is insulting to me and I don't like it >:(...I have a right to not like it...they are saying this in public...not once but many times over the last couple of years
God bless Tony and Ryan and others who are on the front end of their careers and are still putting in the time to be the best...Tony's recovery and preformance after his back injury has not been given nearly enough attention, it is an accomplishment that ranks historically with the best sports stories ever - we could make a movie about it... I am Legend, The True Story of Tony Spredeman
On Tony - there are not "many others like him" there are a handful of up and comers ...You can not say Tony is "The most unique, focused, driven, and hardest working player out there. PERIOD." and then say in the next sentence "there are many like him" these are self-defeating statements ;)
your comments almost come accross like I am saying there aren't any great players playing and that is not true...there are phenominal players in the game today who are in or will be in the hall of fame Todd, Terry, Billy, Tommy, Robert, Dave, Tracy, Tom, and Louis....all of them at one time or other put in long hard hours of practice and tour time to get to where they are today and NO one respects them more than me - I have loved watching them play and have learned from everyone of them and any one of them have done more than I ever will...my complaint isn't about them or the quality of their games or what they have meant to the game historically
my complaint is with high profile players who act like not practing is something to be proud of and I have seen a trickel down in my own experience with lower level players
if you can not relate to what I am saying then we may just have to respectfully agree to disagree...no big deal, wouldn't be the first and won't be the last
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i totally agree with you about the PASSION for the game. any time i played in leagues or tournaments the money was always secondary. i just wanted to win for a love of the game. im 51 also and just got my new t3000 coin op and i practice or mess around about a half hour minimum each day and i still just love the game. im hoping to get in some local tounaments soon if available. there is nothing i would love more than getting to play against and probably destroyed by pro players, so if your ever near johnstown, pa. please contact me.
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it doesn't look like Pit is out of the question for you...not easy but much closer that Phily
check out NetFoos at address below...probably contacts on there that can help you with players in PA
good to hear your playing for the love of the game because at our age and stage there is no other choice
http://www.netfoos.com/locations.shtml
have a great holiday
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Hey Bubbyman,
Don't know how lively Foos is in your area, but Pro-Master Dennis "DC" Claroni is from there, and he actually goes regularly over to Walsh's just north of Philly (check PhillyFoos.com) to play once or more a month.
You might want to check with him on PhillyFoos.com since he's always checking the site, to look for a Pittsburgh area place to play.
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One thing never changes...go to New York and ask " How do you get to Carnigie Hall?"... Practice, practice, practice.