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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: bbtuna on October 01, 2008, 06:09:29 PM
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Ah, the title was meant to get your attention, this is something that is NOT limited to Tornado or Worlds…this is a Foosball Tournament issue
The most important Tournament in the WORLD, the Tornado World Championships, had the 2 most important matches in the WORLD, Open Dbls and Singles, played by the premiere players in the world play at 2am+ in the morning.
“Say what? What u talking bout Charles?” I am saying that tournament after tournament players are called to play matches after 12 at night, heck, after 1am, heck after 2am in the darn morning. This is crazy.
Further, it isn’t uncommon for people to wait 8 hours and more between matches…literaldamly. I have been victim of both at each tournament I have been to.
Oh yea, then, after waiting 8 hours for your next match, while seeing ½ or more of the tables open the entire time, you are told to wait because your matches is going to be called at 2(am that is) but then 1:45 rolls around and the TD announces “No more matches called tonight, tournament room opens at 9AM, first matches called at 10AM” (we all know who those first matches are don’t we?)
I am a Amateur or Beginner or playing a Pro/AM or playing some specialty event and the tournament makes it Race-to-7 in the losers bracket? "Nooooooooo!"
2/3 in Open Doubles and “Qualifiers, Flights, and other fancy stuff”
Why, Why, WHY?
After much review and evaluation, I have come to see there is one thing causing all of this and more…
CONFLICT
Conflict is where the same person(s) are called for two (or more) different matches in two (or more) different events at the same time.
Let me say that again, WhY are these things happening? CONFLICT - say it with me, CONFLICT
[size=14pt]Nothing is more disruptive to tournaments than conflict. [/size] c
Has anything been done to address this?
See next post for Part 2
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I havn't even been to a Worlds or HOFC and I already hate them. I wan't to go to worlds anyways but only because i love foosball. Foosball will never ever grow unless tournaments are a good experience for people to go to. I wonder how pool tournies are run?
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Well... I would say the obvious current solution would be Mary's software. However, her tournaments often run late as well.
Mary's tournaments could be even better, if she didnt have so many events, or if she limited people to playing a certain number of events. I also feel that with the numbers she draws at her tournaments, she needs to increase her payouts. I totally understand that she needs to be able to make a living and such, but when you draw numbers that are basically equal to that of Worlds and only pay half of what Worlds pays out, I just dont think that is right.
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Ugh... time for a reality check.
This was the first Valley tournament to run late in several years. Most times the tournament finishes before 10pm, often well before. There was a computer problem (which aren't unheard of at IFP events, BTW) on Saturday. Conflicts certainly are a factor, but here's the reason tournaments finish late... recalls. I'll say it again... RECALLS!
Players going to their table when called, playing their match and turning in the result right away would shorten tournaments by several hours. It was a near-constant call from the stage at Worlds... And there are always a bunch of serial offenders.
This brings me to The "Myth of Everplay". Everplay and Valley's software are equally capable of running the charts. Does Everplay have some cool features? Sure it does! But I'll tell you the secret of why one is perceived as superior... Candy "The Table Nazi" Liley. If she's not sitting there monitoring the room and cracking the whip, the tournament WILL SLOW TO A CRAWL! And considering that IFP tournaments often have upwards of 30 events, it's a wonder they finish at all. Unfortunately it's usually the wee hours of the morning.
Assign someone the same role at a Valley tournament and I suspect the pace will quicken significantly. Dave Radack was great at this and I'd love to see him back at in the driver seat.
As to conflicts, it's normally a small handful of players that cause most of them. There's always someone who's having a hot weekend and is in the mix in several events. In fact, conflicts are usually worse when there's a smaller turnout. But conflicts really aren't as big a factor as you may think.
Plug your virtual ears, Charles. I know you don't like it when I say this so I'll direct this at Mr. Will17 and anyone else to which it may apply... Remember, just because someone said it on the Internet doesn't make it true. Before you complain and condemn, go to the tournaments. Better yet, do a stint on staff at a tournament and see how much fun it is chasing players to their assigned table or tracking down someone for a match result.
And don't get me started on how long it can take a Pro Master to start a match. ::)
And.... scene.
BA
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Brad - the problem is this is all over the internet and hundreds of people complain, including friends of mine that have been to worlds, Charles has a point - and everyone knows IFP tournaments are run smoother than Valley tourhaments. Is that even up for debate anymore? The poll on foosball board.com even discludes mary from running it, because everyone would vote for her if she was on the list. Vally/Brunswick/Tornado needs the reality check. And if you wan't to have the best spectator audiance avaliable the Final has to be on at 7:00. Either way I don't think any tournaments are run as good as other tournaments in other game/sports. If foosball had tournaments like Pool, Darts, or Bowling it would do wonders for our sport. You can't tell me darts is more fun to watch than foosball, yet its on ESPN every week.
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Brad is right if anyone has every run a tournament you know that recalls slow things down big time. If you told the players they could only get 3 recalls in one tournament before they forfeit the whole tournament not just one event you would see players get to there table on time.
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Hundreds of people? Seriously? And Charles without a point would be another sign of the impending apocalypse. ;) He just happens to be wrong on this one (which was the point of this thread).
I never said IFP tournaments weren't run smoother. I merely stated that it's not because of the software. And I haven't been to every IFP tournament, but the ones I have been at, I can't recall an Open final taking place before midnight.
And please don't start the whole "why isn't foosball on TV" thing again. That debate is worn out and people still don't get it.
That's it on this one. I'm out.
BA
Edit: Just to give people a little hope, there was a writer from ESPN.COM at the Worlds who spent a significant amount of time interviewing people and typing several thousand words of notes. Look for a feature story coming sometime soon. There... feel any better?
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Yes hundreds yes seriously... Every thread on both message boards relating to this topic is filled with complaints. I'm not sure which software is better, but having recalls and conflict both cause tournaments to run slower, there is no question about that. if someone is playing in forward shootout or something and gets called to open it makes the tournament slower. but I would agree that recalls are causing most of the delay. If i was at a tournament i wouldn't want to have to stay at the hotel all day waiting to get called. I'd much rather know my games are scheduled for 10 am, 2:30, and 5, then if i qualify for the quarterfinals my game is at 730 etc.. This is possible if the tournament was run right, but I have never run a foosball tournament and I am sure it is much harder than it looks. but the theory is good. For now the best options out there are valley and ifp so i'll go to those and have fun!
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I will address more of Brad's comments before the day is out but for now I want to say a couple of things...
just one sort of funny aside before I make my points...Brad, you say I should not trust everything I read on the boards from people who go to these same tournaments and yet you are asking me to believe what you have writen on the board.
I think what you mean to say is, that some opinions are valid and some are just meaningless noise. You think yours are valid and that I am incapable of picking through valid and invalid opinions which is funny because if that was true, I couldn't recognize yours. Very funny circular reasoning issue.
I contend your opinion is valid, I can see that it is valid, and I am capable of weeding through the - yes, HUNDREDS, of other comments on all tournaments I have read over the last 3 years.
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1. The first sentence of my first post says I am not picking on Tornado - it says,
"Ah, the title was meant to get your attention, this is something that is NOT limited to Tornado or Worlds…this is a Foosball Tournament issue"
2. Second, I have not commented on my view of Mary's software compared to anything else and it is not important to my point except to illustrate that even software specifically made for the purpose of making tournaments more efficient and limiting the impact of conflict, does NOT fix the issue of conflict (nor recall for that matter which is another thing it was supposed to improve)
3. There is more than one issue which makes tournaments not run smoothly or in a timely manner. RECALL is one of these issues.
4. I am saying I think CONFLICT is the number one issue and Brad is saying RECALL is the number one issue. Both are important...I think CONFLICT has been and will continue to be the number one issue and Brad feels otherwise and I respectfully disagree with his opinion.
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Conflicts or recalls? Which one is the culprit? It would really depend on the tournament. At the IFP events, I would lean toward the conflicts, just because there are so many events that have overlapping player lists. At the Vegas tournaments, the conflicts are not as bad, but the recalls are MUCH worse.
As for the timing out of the matches, the only way to do that is to limit the events that a particular player can play in, AND all of the events should be single elimination. That would limit the conflicts, and allow for scheduling the matches for predetermined times. However, most of the tournament players would whine and cry even more than now if the format changed to single elimination. Players want the best of all worlds, play many events, timely matches, double elimination, time to leave the tournament room, continuous playing of matches, break for dinner, low entries, high prize money, TV exposure, double elimination brackets, blah...blah...blah. Something has to give, unfortunately, double elimination and many events severely hinders a promoter's ability to bring about any of the other aforementioned items.
just my 2 cents
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Pat,
first off, you bring up one of the points I was going to make and that is why we have conflict...conflict is primarily a product of the package deal and open events
these both came about as TD's wanted to give people a lot of playing time who plop out a ton of money to go to their tournaments - this is further complicated by adding events which Mary does...I am not certain but I think mainly Mary's reasoning for adding events is two-fold...one, give players a lot of playing time and provide opportunities for more people to win
I don't think that conflicts and more play have to be mutually exclusive...it is possible to give people tons of playing time and numerous opportunities for wins AND elliminate conflict
with conflict eliminated, the next focus could be managing recalls (or they could be done in tandum)
I am saying the CONFLICT problem can be 100% removed and people can still have all the playing time they have ever gotten, maybe more but one thing is certain, it can not be done without change
Pat you said people want everything at once and something must give...I agree, something has to give...tournaments can not continue to be run with the same basic format and fix Conflict OR Recalls for that matter
but people need to except some change, try some new things and/or leadership has to implement change even if the people aren't on board...I do NOT recommend this approach, I think change can be implemented with a majority of players on board but it would take a plan...this plan needs to include a serious communication plan, involvement of players, and a committment to find and adopt the best approach
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Without a doubt, the biggest problem this year was recalls. I saw the stack of recalls near the end of the tournament. It was about 4 inches thick.
Conflicts certainly are a factor, but here's the reason tournaments finish late... recalls. I'll say it again... RECALLS!
Players going to their table when called, playing their match and turning in the result right away would shorten tournaments by several hours. It was a near-constant call from the stage at Worlds... And there are always a bunch of serial offenders.
Too many players go smoke/visit/eat/potty/shower/you name it immediately after a match and "forget" to turn in results. It's not the software, it's the players themselves.
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Recalls as a problem have reached what appears to be an epidemic level as seen at Worlds this year and for sure the worst I have heard of it since I have been monitoring this sort of thing…I have heard more complaints from this year’s Worlds on recalls than maybe all other tournaments combined over the last year
recalls can be quickly addressed by enforcing exisiting rules and adding one or two others...it would take a commitment of the TD to dedicate some people to follow up on matches and a willingness to set some tight guidelines and hold to them ... it will be a little labor intensive the first few tournaments but if you can weather the storm, that will drop back to a manageable part of running the tournament. Recall police.
* carefully document the procedure and consequences for not following it and
* make sure everyone signs off (literally) on it at the beginning of the tournament as part of registration.
* Before starting the tournament have a kick off speech which includes addressing this issue and how it is going to be handled. Make sure it is communicated that how this is impacting the players negatively and it is in their best interest. Paint a vision picture of the intended results of change and try and get people on board.
* I would gather all the PM's together and anyone who can't be there talk to separately and explain the issue and that ask them for their help by modeling the correct behavior. Also, let them know that regrettably one or more of them will likely end up suffering the consequences of the new rules (or newly enforced rules) but you are pleading with them to be professional and model the right way and not become an example of what happens when it goes wrong.
* The TD has to have the balls (excuse the pun) to pull the trigger on disqualifying any top level player who doesn't comply. If this happens, and it will eventually as long as the TD can stand strong, all hell will break loose but if it is communicated right, no one will really have any ground to stand on. There will be a ton of players who will say "Its about time"
* The PM shouldn't be targeted but it will cause an outcry of unfairness (and rightfully so) if the new tightened standards are implemented for the lower profile players but not for the top level players. With the higher ranking comes a higher responsibility to be a professional and represent the sport to all levels below them. How the top PM’s go, so go the other players – the infamous and totally true trickle-down of leadership…
* Then be ready to stand pat and take a lot of sh#$ for a couple of tournaments until the culture is changed.
it takes some planning and some leadership but recalls is a ship that can be turned quickly and i think the leadership can get people on board but again, it is about planning and execution...
at this point, it isn't the players fault, it is the TD's fault...the players will do what they are allowed to do and the players will not do what they are not allowed to do...super simple in theory but the TD has the tools needed to deal with this...they just need to create a good communication plan and grow some balls I mean find the courage and strength to hold the course
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I agree with the sign-off at registration.
Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, much larger world superstars do it. They do not negotiate when their Tee times or match times are. If anyone should be allowed, it would be them. What is needed is the same stone-cold commitment and penalization of the top players that Mary Moore exhibited at the beginning. And she has the support of some of the world's best players who come to the events on time, do not abuse recalls, and other instances of gamesmanship. Professionalization includes very very harsh treatment of those who abuse and break rules.
Anyone putting up any amount of money for the purses at a tournament that includes professional play has to be willing to punish the rotten apples. It also helped with IFP that some of her players, including Ryan, that are at or approaching world class play, are more than willing win by forfeit over a lot of the older professional crew, so used to being prima donnas. There should be no allowances given for those pros and promasters who partied and drugged up too long the night before, as they did in the 80s and 90s. This and the nonchalance they regard the event's management is what leads to abusing recalls. In this age of mobile phones and integrated closed feed and Internet access to the tournament progress, THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.
How many thousands across the country lost the opportunity to see foosball at its finest showcased at prime time or the window between 1pm and 10pm on weekends? Ridiculous! If an organization able to hold a major event, let alone a world championship, declares it is trying to promote and nurture a growing event, then they're lying, they're incompetent, and should be replaced.
The Open qualifiers are a great idea, to make the cream rise to the top, but the scheduling is always always a result of mismanagement and lack of central administration.
With the decades of previous data on hand, a study of standard game times to completion, a really really statistically accurate and consistent average for matches in beginners, rookies, amateur and pro is easy to calculate once the number of players are determined after the close of sign-ups. They should immediately calculate the time to finals, since all the other measures like average time in betweeen, average reasonable recall times, conflicts, average table repair times are all easily available! There should be a mathematically calculated estimate of how much time is required for the amount of tables available and the number of players. Then one can easily plug in the margins to allow for the delays, one can decide to "express" the losers bracket, and a host of other tools to keep the tournament running on time. NOT AFTER the delays are already bogging the event down. Even if organizers STARTED NOW to get this data, they'd still be in a lot better position to plan events!
World Class events run like mom N pop? Even bowling and billiards events are better run! They use the math. And the spreadsheets.. The current state is embarrassing. Especially to the international community and all the potential continental players hoping to get to the event soon.
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How long should it take for match to end?
If it goes 3 games
Recall not sure lets just say 10 min
12 time outs 12*30 sec = 360 seconds or 6 min
90 seconds between games = 180 sec or 3 min
Game play lets just say 1 min per point 9 points per game * 3 games 27 min
That's 46 minutes I think if any one takes more than 1 hour to turn in results they should just flip a coin or forfeit both teams.
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While recalls are a problem, there's a bigger flaw. There's no way that a stack of recalls can cause someone to not play a match for 8-10 hours.
The tournaments aren't run all that well. They just need to run events to completion. Also players introduce a lot of delay as well. Showing up 10 minutes
after your match is called is very typical. Taking at least 5 minutes after your match to talk to your opponent. The other problem I see
with open events is that Pro masters take way way too long to get a match started,
which is another reason why the finals in Open were played at 2am. I would hear the matches called between pro master vs pro master, and they were
even given a 5 min pre-call. It would normally take 20 minutes for both teams to just show up. Another 10-15 mins to warms up. And another 10-15 to
wait to find a ref. Then the match is 3/5 and so it takes over an hour to get a match played.
Unfortunately, those are the dynamics of foosball tournaments when no technology is used to aid in running the tournament.
-zeke
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problem with how long it takes people to respond, start, finish, and sign a match card is one of policing and enforcement
with the correct math, it could be programmed into the right tournament software to start a clock automatically at first call then run through 3 calls, then x min to start, then x for match, and x to sign match card which would turn off the clock on that match...
if the match is not signed in that time, both teams forfeit...ouch, no one will like that
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Theres to much going on at the same time I had to wait hrs between matches so someone could play in 4 other events move these events to a differnt part of the room and only allow 2 events at a time ..
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I'm not really bothered that much by a superregional or states event running too many events, because the promoter/organizers have to defray their risks in time and money and will try to get the most players to show. And kissing promasters' asses is one way to get them and those players' admirers to show.
However, allowing pros and proM's not even in the top 20 take so much time for their matches in a World event or a Major is totally inexcusable.
This is part of the reason that Mary's IFP tournaments have gained so much popularity. They make a conscious effort to run the events on time, despite having so many events, and they have adopted technology to help them. I really think that Valley has been abusing lower ranked players for so long, because they really only care about the "perfessionul elite", that they have no reason to change, despite Warrior and despite players' complaints.
Until Brunswick starts reading into the history between several players' associations and Valley's purposeful decadelong(?) dismissal of them, while reacting in a year or less to the ITSF's French proposals, nothing is really going to happen. Warrior-IFP, and Bonzini before that, have seen how good the market can be and how good promotions that treat the non professional (ie, BUYERS of TABLES) players decently, as any good customers should be treated, can grow the market. Until the old guard at Valley gets their golden parachutes and retire or get canned, which is naturally the only thing they now obviously care about now, nothing that isn't ITSF based or encouraged will come out of their side.
Mary, or Brendan, or both, can run a Las Vegas Warrior Worlds with more money and the support of the majority of US foosball players. They can even compete to "break" the HOFC by having their own in a central location like Chicago or St Louis. They may succeed or not, but it would sure light some kind of fire under Brunswick. What's really interesting is that Warrior, despite its weaknesses, is closer to an ITSF style table from the getgo than Tornado ever was. Warrior should be homologated as an ITSF table by 09, removing another feather in Tornado-Valley's caps. Then the real MMA fight begins.
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What if you had those restuarant lightup things. You pay 40 at the biggining of the tourney all refundable. They have a good range and you have 20 minutes to get there or you forfiet?
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What if you had those restuarant lightup things. You pay 40 at the biggining of the tourney all refundable. They have a good range and you have 20 minutes to get there or you forfiet?
I have a better idea, how about a taser with a neck-choker strap? You have 50,000 volt zaps that arc at 1200v at 3, 6, and 9 minutes. After 20 minutes, you won't get anywhere, period. No more primadonnas who think they're God's gift to the event coming late because they had too many drinks and drugs the night before and had to scrounge around for their amphetamine or caffeine pickups.
Will we also ever get to a point where anyone getting into the money more than $ 2000 has to take an immediate piss test for amphetamines and other foos-alertness enhancing substances after they sign their match card? Any moron refusing to take the test for 20 dead presidents or more deserves to forfeit.
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Will we also ever get to a point where anyone getting into the money more than $ 2000 has to take an immediate piss test for amphetamines and other foos-alertness enhancing substances...?
Since I don't start humming along until I'm on my second pitcher of Bud Light, or 4th bacardi/coke, am I exempt from this since they are depressants, not stimulants?
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Since I don't start humming along until I'm on my second pitcher of Bud Light, or 4th bacardi/coke, am I exempt from this since they are depressants, not stimulants?
Yes, I don't believe as many barbiturates & other depressant substances are on the list, except those that are used to quiet nerves. You would have to look at the International Testing standards (Olympic and others) that the ITSF and that includes the US, have agreed to voluntarily follow, at least as guidelines.
That's probably another reason foosball has had a black eye for possible sponsors after the 80s: the scandals involving recreational drugs and tax evasion. Probably another reason foosball companies have also kept a low profile, at least until whatever percent of their company sponsored "in-house" proMasters have either thoroughly detoxed or retired.
One should not be surprised one day to get taken aside after winning any Open Event in a National or World championships venue, for a piss test or the newer test they are developing. And a friendly Treasury rep at the awards table where one would check out money won.
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I wouldn't mind seeing piss tests for major events, it makes sense if you view foosball as a sport, which I feel like major events do. I do however know that I would fail a piss test if it were to happen today. (good thing I'm bad at foosball?)
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Since I don't start humming along until I'm on my second pitcher of Bud Light, or 4th bacardi/coke, am I exempt from this since they are depressants, not stimulants?
So that's why I've never seen you anywhere near the water jugs or dispensers on tour! It's all clear now :P !!
Strict no-water diet, but like the ever-resourceful koalas down under, you find a way ..... ;D