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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: TSR_Brad on October 03, 2008, 05:59:51 PM
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Just a little taste of Tony's overpowering performance...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeSaJgcdcc
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that was amazing from both players...Tony, wow!! also, the sound from the table was new for me and it is very very compelling..."i like it olat"
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that was amazing from both players...Tony, wow!! also, the sound from the table was new for me and it is very very compelling..."i like it olat"
Don't get too attached to that wonderful tic tac'ing sound, especially as the new soft Tornado ITSF'ish balls come in. The Euro's know that the harder balls allow for faster tic tacs and allow their best to get dominated, even overwhelmed, by Americans like Tony Spredeman.
Another hurdle for American style non-pinned passing, but which plays perfectly into making Euro style more of a match for it. I'm not saying there's an obvious conspiracy to make Euro style more dominating in American tournaments, but hey, it is what it is. I just hope Tony continues to adjust to that softer ball, which is like the NBA changing the basketball pressure to prevent fast hard dribbling and allow more gripping for those dunks. Dumbed down...
I prefer to watch more practiced and more highly skilled players dribbling the hard ball and still retain control, not seeing weaker nimrods who never put the time in to left hand practice and ball control, show the new tricks. Why not use a g*d damned nerf foosball then? I spent a few years playing with those super grippy balls, which I also enjoyed, but it doesn't bring out the best, and discourages less practice and stress on ball control, which I realized was extremely stupid. I'm sick of all these people wanting to play with the grippier balls because it makes their lives easier. Let's put a governor on all racing bikes and formula 1 racing and run it all then, at 50 mph. Or soften the Major League baseball so it doesn't homer as often but stays in play instead. Or change all tennis courts to sand shale so all the duffers have a chance of returning well-executed power shots.
I hope Brunswick spins off Valley-Tornado and sells it to Sportcraft & Harvard Sports. Hopefully these often maligned companies would definitely not run supposedly world class events like morons. Oh yeah, so Dave Radack would've run it better? Well he wasn't there, but no, that's a great excuse: Our correct choice Dave wasn't there, so we have to use these nitwits to run it now. THAT IS NO EXCUSE. We are lucky that those rockhard balls were in play so that the pros with dominant hardball control came through as in Master Singles, Pro Singles, Pro Doubles, Open Doubles and Open Singles. Rico was in those, because he practices hardball play. Mickey Suwaidi doubled in the Pro events, and Ryan and Tony and Rico and TMac and Gumby were there. We shouldn't change the face of American foosball because of some TOOL in Nice, who couldn't give two sh*ts about American foosball, just how much money they can make off the US.
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Tell us how you really feel.....
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Dumbed down...
Fits the new serve too.
And while we're at it, why not take out the back wall so it will be easier for beginners to score. We might be able to compete with poker yet.
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Dumbed down...
Fits the new serve too. And while we're at it, why not take out the back wall so it will be easier for beginners to score. We might be able to compete with poker yet.
Exactly! Here's what I said in the other thread:
Yes, Tony's series is monstrous, ....
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Keep the balls relatively hard, round and even-bouncing and the US can keep stepping on the Euro and other players, as they so richly deserve, bragging about their ball control with balls and men that our grandparents could have controlled. Players who want grippy, forgiving balls so they can override their nervousness, lack of practice, and lack of experience in ball control, DO NOT DESERVE TO PLAY in premiere events. That's like lowering the high bar by 1 foot in a high jump Nationals or Olympics, so that duff amateurs can compete. Does that make sense? That's how stupid and inane ITSF recommendations are. These guys want the equivalent of us sending NFL playoff-level teams to play their Premiere FIFA teams in a game of soccer, because they know exactly what will happen to their teams if they played even US College Football BCS teams in a game of American football.
Go Spredey! Keep demoralizing and humiliating their *sses. Then kick em in the teeth and other places while they're down.
Tell us how you really feel.....
You bet, Nate! Either we fight this dumbing down or the Worlds may be played with Wii's or Xbox 360's, thumb aerobics anyone?
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After reading some of the posts here I get the impression that the countless European players playing on the Tornado tour finally managed to gain enough influence and now the gear is changed in their favour. Would anyone care telling me who all those malicious Euro players are? Who's responsible for all that hatred?
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I think it started with the Brits back in the 1700's...the love (this is sarcasm) on the "new American" grew from country to country over the years, and these country to country relationships have been, well on and off ever since...a lot of the comments I have read (not limited to this thread) on this subject sound to be primarily be born from a general prejudice
- as a general rule, Euros don't want to be Americanized and American's don't want to be French (just kidding...) American's dont want to be told what to do and don't want to be (insert country name there _____________ized ).
look at the recent Riders Cup, man that was, well, what would be the best way to put it?...Spirited?
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After reading some of the posts here I get the impression that the countless European players playing on the Tornado tour finally managed to gain enough influence and now the gear is changed in their favour. Would anyone care telling me who all those malicious Euro players are? Who's responsible for all that hatred?
BodyG,
It's not, I repeat, not a hate of Euro players, who will always be welcome for their adventuresomeness, conviviality, support, and openness at US events. It is more the over two decades long enmity between Tornado-Valley (before Brunswick took over) as its superiorly designed and manufactured table began to dominate the US foosball market, and its US players and promoters/distributors, who were basically its main market.
Tornado's durability and consistency as a product overwhelmed the then major Tournament Soccer, or TS Million Dollar Tour, which was ridden with "wildcat", barely legitimate tours that saw rampant drug abuse as was endemic everywhere anyway in the mid 80's, by very common large "under the table" cash prizes looked upon by the IRS (US Treasury) as a standard money laundering tool, and outright theft by promoters that absconded with the money and are still being hunted abroad.
Many of the TS players had started on tour and turned it into a giant party held on most US national holiday weekends, mixed with several Regional Super Events. A Golden Age, as they say. If you have ever experienced the early to mid80's in Europe, these tour events paid very well, had a roaming superparty that followed the tour all over, similar to the 90's roving hordes of weekender ravers that started in Ibiza, Spain, where English hooligans mixed with whitecollar decadents from all over Western Europe, and the super European rich and their kids, who had castles, estates and yachts at nearby Mallorca, Telerica and Telleriz.
TS dominance gave way to Dynamo, which was in turn absorbed by Tornado, which had a great product & got the overwhelming approval of promoters who ran coin-op concessions all over the US. New groups of soon-to-be-elite players started playing in arcades and sportsbar/collegiate gamerooms. Attracted by similar reasons to the tour, a newer tourgroup evolved. But this time, they'd been weaned off Dynamos into Tornado's US power foosball, as designed by Ed McCloud. This is the dominant US style today, with one major component that came along with the new Tornado ball introduced in the early 90's.
The new ball did not chip and remained smooth, allowing a new shot, the snake or rollover, to emerge, vs the older balls which had cracks, chips and craters and were basically pucks. Terry Moore, former pullshooter like most proMasters, perfected the snake attack and allowed even more power, more reliably to be included in US foosball. This loud, relatively easy to learn shot, began a new era, as almost all new foosers used this combo of pin control and palmrolling power to start a new youth movement that still rankles a lot of the old guard.
About the same time that Tornado was dominating US foos and looking towards world markets, several players started questioning Tornado's and later Valley's absolute control of the tour. Many organizations and groups were formed to give a voice to the players' needs. They wanted more say in the tour, since US players had always been foosball's money cow and customers. For obvious reasons, Tornado and Valley did not welcome or respond very well to these calls to surrender their monopoly. They were, as any business, reluctant to react, especially with cheaper Asian knockoffs and European competition as their number one worry. So the players have always had subgroups who do not trust any monopoly and speak out whenever there is any question about tables, table parts, or event management that distresses or takes advantage of the lower, non-elite players who pay for the brunt of major and regional events. Just as any democratic American should be, especially in any "unfree" market.
If you don't believe this, then Mary Moore, IFP, Brendan Flaherty, and the Warrior Table are figments of your imagination. There are ALSO players who also just want the status quo, who take Tornado-Valley's side almost the whole time, because their agenda is to internationalize and expand foosball, ASAP, no matter what. They regard any player, local or regional control similar to that of Bowling, Pool, Darts, and other leagues/hobbies/sports/games as a threat. A lot of player activists can often go overboard, of course, so the players/officials on Valley-Tornado's side will disparage and attack activists, telling them to shut up already, getting personal sometimes, WITHOUT ANY COUNTER-ARGUMENTS or reasons why this or that feature or this or that shouldn't be that unfair. Yes they are what you would typically call FASCISTS or SUPERCAPITALISTS - Anyone that tells complaining others to pipe down without any arguments or logical refutals.
Going back to your question on resentment. Players had been asking for changes to the tables for years and were ignored, with Tornado-Valley going about their own improvements and changes, confident that they had a stranglehold on the US market and also had the sanction of the ITSF. Then changes that were requested or recommended by the ITSF were basically implemented less than one year after introducing the new "fridge" Tornado, to become standard the day after Worlds. So Tornado-Valley will ignore their own market for a decade and listen to the ITSF suggestions. This is the same as the US Tennis Association, or USTA, ignoring US players and members's requests for years, then suddenly listening to the European federation and replacing all US HarTru and other hardcourts used in Open play with red clay. It is ridiculous and quite insulting to US players. If the USTA did this bonehead thing, then suddenly all major events would of course be amenable and advantageous to the 30-70 European players, but absolutely humiliating and contradictory to the thousands and thousands of USTA players.
Do you now see where this enmity is and why it's growing? Sure there are detractors of Valley-Tornado who go overboard and turn it into a personal vendetta. But the fact remains is that Valley-Tornado has been very protective and insular of its monopolistic socialist stranglehold on US Foosball, until recently, that is. I've run my own businesses, so I can't really fault them.. US foosball allowed Valley-Tornado's monopoly to grow, to they have to live with it. So there is no hate or resentment of Euro players, just the question, why make it easier for them at US events, and jack all the Americans after 20+ years of US style power foosball? And there is more admiration of Rico's example (ala Nadal and Federer) of his ability to dominate on any table or any style. Converting Tornado tables to more of a Euro style destroys the variety, destroys the diversity of world or international foosball, and alienates thinking players trying to promote US foosball with idiotic "Pipe down", "enough already", and other name-calling phrases, even on this board. No arguments or counter reasoning, just the party line. This will always lead to a lot of anger and resentment.
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Wow, Foozkillah, THAT made it clear to me - thank you very much for taking such a lot of time to write this excursus on American Foosball history...
So the ITSF and Tornado-Valley's submissiveness to them are the real villains in this drama? In this case you might have more fellow travelers among European Foosers than you think...
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I really enjoyed the read FK
My view…
US Players have shown serious displeasure with ITSF from the second the ITSF entered the picture. US Players thought they were superior to Euro players since the 70’s (superior in skillz and foosball evolution and history). US players have always thought Euro foos lacked the discipline of “real” tournament foosball. US players have always felt their table (TS, Dynamo, Tornado) was superior and has always felt the Euro tables were cheap made bush league attempts at a “real” foosball table. (I don’t think this is true, I just believe it has been the prevailing thought)
Many players resent ITSF simply because they are not American…others feel like the US game was sold out to the ITSF without so much as a thought for how the US player would feel and without consideration for the history and tradition of the US tournament game.
FACT: The US game was sold out to the ITSF without the feedback or consensus of US players. This is undisputable fact.
This was most clearly illustrated when the US rules of foosball were abandoned for “universal” international foosball rules of the ITSF. Note: The US rules were used as a basis for creating these rules and a high profile US official was involved with heading up the committee to draft the rules (and is current Head Official).
The US rules were developed over 30 years and although they were not perfect they represented years of evolution. 95%+ of these rules were adopted by the ITSF but there were a few key ones that were changed and these represented fundamental US foosball game protocol - most notable change is the service rule (now handset in the middle with “ready” protocol – all because Euro tables don’t have serving holes---ouch).
The main issue with this change for US tournament players is that the US game lost sovereignty over its own future. In the end, this is probably THE most significant issue for US players.
Outside of foosball, the attitude of Americans is that they do not like being told what to do. In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war?
So to be told by some non-American organization how our tournaments should be run and what our tables should be like is like a double whammy. Add to that that the US players believe that real tournament foosball was developed here in the US and you have the makings for some emotional blowback.
Considering these facts, it is a slap in the face when an organization years, maybe decades behind the US in terms of tournament evolution and knowledge, tell us “US Americans” what to do and then take over tournament foosball which “we” defined and matured.
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Why was the game sold out?
Because US tournament foosball was controlled by a table manufacturer and not by an independent organization (like the NFL is for football) and because the US players did not have and do not have a players union. Even if the US game was not controlled by a table company, the players have no voice and no power to shape their own destiny.
Tornado was this table manufacturer and they made the move because they thought it might create some new revenue for their company. Tornado was not concerned with the US player, they thought that was a done deal, plus I am sure they convinced themselves (and this would not take much to do) that it would be better for the US player in the long run. Further, I think Tornado was happy to hand off primary responsibility for tournament play, overall game development and recognition, and player development since Tornado only did it as a matter of historical default. Mainly I believe Tornado thought it would make them more money and open the European market to them where, outside of Britain, the Tornado was as hard to find as a virgin in Vegas.
Why was the game sold out?
Same question? Well, yea but different answer. Tornado is the fall guy for anyone who dislikes losing our foosball sovereignty to Europe. However, I think there is a more fundamental reason the US lost control of its own tournament foosball.
LEADERSHIP…
• US Tournament Foosball and the overall development of foosball in the US has never had a visionary high-level
non-table specific leader.
• US Tournament Foosball lacks a powerful players union.
If either of these were in place before the ITSF came along things would be way way different right now. As a matter of fact, if the first was in place, there may never have been an ITSF.
What can good visionary leadership accomplish?
Well, there will be many who don’t like me saying this but the truth is, Farid Lounas is a dynamic visionary leader – forget him as a person or a Frenchman and look at what he has accomplished. Look at what the ITSF has accomplished in just a few years, it is staggering.
Like him or not, like the ITSF or not, it doesn’t change the fact that this man has laid out a plan and accomplished more for organizing foosball in just a couple years than anyone else (I would say) in foosball history. The TS golden era was quite a ride but it lacked the vision of the ITSF and it was the result of a table manufacture’s sales/marketing plan and the foosball craze that swept the US in the mid to late 70’s (which was not a product of TS or any marketing plan, it was simply a passing fad). TS just jumped on the foosball fad that rocked the US and rode it until TS’s short-sighted business plan collapsed like a house of cards literally overnight.
I don’t like that the US doesn’t have its own identity and that we have lost control of our game to someone else. At the same time, I can’t blame anyone except the US because no US leader/visionary has stepped up to paint, drive, model, and gather resources, to invent/reinvent US foosball.
Really, what the ITSF is doing is mostly good for foosball...globally. However, it is hard to see the value today for US players (outside of a few who get picked for international trips).
I think the US player base would be all for the ITSF if Farid Lounas was a “US American” and if the ITSF was tilted slightly in our favor…it isn’t bad enough we lost our game to the Euro Foosball elite but we lost it to a Frenchman who’s vision makes us look like cave men.
Our only hope is another table manufacture paired with a promoter…Warrior and IFP but they will become ITSFed as soon as they can I am sure and Mary still uses ITSF rules so we wait while the future of US foosball is shaped primarily by those outside the US.
By the way, take a good look around the ITSF website, a good long look, nothing like it in foosball, and it illustrates the power of the ITSF vision.
http://www.table-soccer.org/
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the attitude of Americans is that they do not like being told what to do. In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war?
I hate to turn this into a political arguement, but seriously is that what the text books say in the states?
As far as the ITSF goes I like to see that people appreciate it, because other sports have an international governing body as well as national governing bodies. It just makes sense. Look at Fifa, that has got to be the biggest sporting organization in the world. But the FA(the equivilant of USTSA) in England has a TON of control too. In england they used to hate FIFA, which is an international governing body that stole there sport, at least from there point of view. England didn't even participate in the world cup from 1930 until 1954(i think). They were pretty unquestionably the best team in the world at that time much like the US in foosball right now on tornado. I think the ITSF is doing good things and will promote the sport globally better than anything the US has done so far.
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"In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war? "
this was meant a little tongue in cheek but generally that is the US view and history
NBA basketball has its own rules and league and there is a separate international set of rules and play - if foosball was like that there would be a lot less push back
I like what the ITSF has done but I don't like giving up our sovereignty but I can only complain so much because we don’t have anyone stepping up here in the US
Killa was saying Tornado table changes were a byproduct of ITSF making the table play of the US game more European as opposed to the other way around
I agree that this was probably the starting point of the changes but I think Warrior and player feedback ended up being significant factors as well
I wanted slightly more control before I knew anything about European tables and long before ITSF came along
Warrior’s table has more control and many of the same design principles that Tornado is trying to implement now and I am confident that Brendan didn’t design his table to please Europe…his ball has way more control, so does his man, you can do banks, and it is a one man goalie…Tornado does that and they are accused of giving into the Euro way and abandoning the US player and history
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I hate to add to contribute to the hijack of the thread, because Tony WAS AWESOME, but...
All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?
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Warrior’s table has more control and many of the same design principles that Tornado is trying to implement now and I am confident that Brendan didn’t design his table to please Europe…his ball has way more control, so does his man, you can do banks, and it is a one man goalie…Tornado does that and they are accused of giving into the Euro way and abandoning the US player and history
That's because Valley-Tornado has been doing exactly what they want, when they want, with table changes, and several US players have been asking for changes for years. Then they came out with that "fridge", supposedly their latest and best'est. But after meeting with ITSF, they have these new Euro-type changes implemented less than one year after the F5? That's jumpin' and how high..
I agree, the basic acceptance of Warrior's features may have played a large part in solidifying V-T's reaction and time frame, but it's probably more of a combination of the two. I also wonder if some enterprising maker will have Chinese or Asian knockoffs of the gray marble or fridge, since the new Tornado's will no longer really match the original supersuccessful-for-20-years design, and flood the market. There won't be as many legal hurdles for an importer who wants to attack that 80-90% of the US Market that was weaned on the original Tornado. Any player who's played and competed on Tornado over the last 20 years can immediately start playing, and competing, on a knock-off.
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All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?
Well, that explains one thing. I knew there was a logical explanation for the warped play field.
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All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?
Sounds reasonable - but I dare to predict that it won't work. The experienced European players who know about Tornado wouldn't regard it as the real thing, and those who are not familiar with the game would never buy an American product as long as they can choose from a variety of top quality tables made in Germany (or France or Italy or Belgium) as well as cheap tables made in China.
By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.
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Sounds reasonable - but I dare to predict that it won't work. The experienced European players who know about Tornado wouldn't regard it as the real thing, and those who are not familiar with the game would never buy an American product as long as they can choose from a variety of top quality tables made in Germany (or France or Italy or Belgium) as well as cheap tables made in China.
By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.
A successful strategy or not, I was merely tossing out a possible alternative to all the conspiracy theorists. I have to think that VB's table sales have stagnated a bit in the US and it's only logical (though somewhat uncharacteristic) of Tornado to look beyond their usual market. I also think any changes Tornado has made have absolutely ZERO to do with Warrior. I just think it has to do with trying to increase sales. And if that's the case, they need to worry more about the Harvards or Sportcrafts or Carroms of the world.
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Brad,
If you are responding to my posts then you missed my points. I clearly said it was a market decision, much of the rest is merely the veiw many players take who are against the, to them, bad ITSF.
I didn't say Warrior was the cause for Tornado changes although IN addition to the obvious desire to sell to a different market, there is the fact that Warrior was pushing them AND Tornado could at least appear to meet US player needs.
I said that Warrior was an example that some of the changes have been on the minds of some US players (like me) for years and Warrior had almost all the same changes planned (different execution mechanically but the same result) apart from Tornado changes or ITSF influence.
Tornado President said in his interview that they made, or at least started, the changes because the ITSF requested them.
I don't think the reason or reasons for the Tornado changes can be attributed to one single thing though I believe that the primary motivation was to provide a table that would sell better in Europe. However, I think as they started down that path they also decided it would be prudent to consider US player input killing 2 birds with one stone and then at the same time Warrior was coming out and they lost IFP, and this provided a chance for them to address this US market complication.
It is transparent that Tornado is concerned with losing the US market they owned for so long. You can see this with their obvious attempts to communicate more with the US player base, their attempt to try and spin the table changes and their concern for quality as a response to US player feedback (note Dave Corrington's letter verses the Presidents interview), and the annoucement of an expanded "tour" next year adding 2 more events and moving Worlds back to Texas.
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By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.
BodyG,
iWhat if the US Tennis Association, suddenly found itself in a dominant position in the international tennis federation, like the presidency and other positions, and THEN requested, in the name of homogeneity, that continental European tours (where the clay season is played) switch to hardcourts? That's OK, because .. "you don't ask, you won't get...." Can't blame the US federation, or its sponsors, who can sell a ton more Penn and other hardcourt balls, perhaps more hardcourt rackets (still made in Asia, of course) to Europe. Not a dominant position in the market, but definitely better positioned.
BUT THEN, if the French, Italian, and other Low Country federations suddenly started to follow suit, putting in hardcourts for tournaments within a calendar year.... and Americans start showing up in all the formerly clay Euro tournaments and winning .... Man, do you even get the idea of exactly what kind of "exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia" will be exhibited by European continental tour players and fans? They will logically resent and hate the US federation and blame them, but they will VILIFY their own national federation/s for selling out. They're not gonna start hating the Williams sisters for stepping all over everyone except the other foreigners, the Russians, but they will certainly resent their suddenly being able to compete and win without adjustments !
BBTuna and I've tried to explain to you how this is happening with Valley-Tornado's dealings with the ITSF. I believe many US foosers understandably resent, but not blame Farid Lounas for trying to do his job of internationalizing foosball, which is a laudable effort. But right now, BECAUSE OF VALLEY-T, it is at the expense of US foosball! And oh yeah, Valley-Tornado has been the monolithic giant for 20 years, but that's because of the original, almost life-time durable design of the original Tornado and its commercial and private acceptance. Valley did not invent the Tornado, they inherited it. So there's no braintrust to even be respected over there.
It took an enterprising promoter named Mary in Kentucky, who started her own tour format with IFP, got other promoters like Charlie into it, to show how slow and a-retentive Valley-T was... She follows and supports the international movement and of course adopted the new rules, as any good Tornado promoter would do. An ace and a let and and a fault are an ace, a let, and a fault, as they should be, in any lawn tennis game. She paid the lower ranks more, in keeping with the money and time these non-pros in the lower half of the pyramid have always been putting into tournaments. She, and Alan Cribbs with Bonzini as well, found sponsors, which Valley-T should have been doing 10 years ago, instead of using their promotional budgets to send their officials overseas to promote themselves. They offer more events to allow more people to play. Quite a difference.
Time and world economics has caught up with Valley-Tornado's management, and I'm sure Brunswick will be evaluating why they haven't been running tournaments that are as complete an entertainment event like other Brunswick brand tournaments, why they haven't been able to get 2 or more major sponsors like "smallfry" Mary and Alan (continuously)have done to defray costs and use the marketing punch of tour events, and why they haven't been responsive to the market like any g*d*mn self-respecting capitalistic corporation should be doing. Neither of them can afford to just wait out their corporate retirement, while enjoying the perks like regular overseas travel to Paris and Frankfurt, like some relics from the old Tornado barnstorming days, who obviously will let the market go to hell, because they don't have the motivation anymore.
I am sure that Brunswick took over Valley-T to position itself better in the leisure products market, because the new commercial battleground, of course, will be Asia: China and the Pacific Rim nations, as their humongous populations start approaching the leisure time products potential that will dwarf Europe. Thanks to our new local player, a fine expatriate Canadian, Fred "Shanghai" Gower, who started a small but growing cadre of players at his "dojo" there and led China to second place in the Asian championships in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Those were held, by the way, on Tornado, because even the Pacific Rim knows how durable and playable the table design is,
Asians rightly admire American power foosball, AND that includes Frederico in his own US power foosball MODE. Just as they admire foreign NBA players who show they can be as good and dominant. But its the NBA that showcases them, nothing else comes close. Asians know very well that US power foosball, like US basketball, backed by hundreds of locals, dozens of regionals, and national and professional events, over THIRTY YEARS of organized play, played in the equivalent of 50 nation states, is WHERE IT IS STILL AT. Shanghai Fred's now with us, living in Miami, but he left that indelible mark there. And the best player there in Asia, who also plays in South Florida when he can, Miqdad "Mickey" Suwaidi, has already made inroads with Cespedes-Martin by doubling the Pro (non-Open) events this recent Worlds in Las Vegas. And manufacturers Leonhard, TecBall, Lehmacher, Warrior, Legend, et al (where the hell's Valley?) already have firm firm feet and factories planted there.
And if Valley-T continues to abandon their US player base for whatever reason, Asian factories are hungry and ready for the US market. Potential? Overall, probably at least 3000 tour & locals players, maybe another 1000 family & residence hall locations, and maybe another 2000 sportsbars, community centers, gamerooms and parlors. That's 3 to 5 million Euros every two-three years if there's a tour to support and sponsor it, PLUS parts and PLUS other complementary products like dartboards, dart machines, video stands, and pool tables. Duhhhh???? You can also immediately realize, it's good practice, before Asia deals with its own potential, what 10-20,000 players??? And yes, they like to drink, gamble and sing karaoke, too.
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Killa,
you said, "BBTuna and I've tried to explain to you how this is happening with Valley-Tornado's dealings with the ITSF..."
I appreciate your response and as always you are detailed and articulate but I am apparently a little slow because I don't get what you are trying to explain to me. I fully understand everything you wrote previously and I fully understand what you wrote this time and I assume based on the "I've tried to explain to you" that you feel I have missed something and that you are trying to make clear to me.
Like I said, I like your writing and appreciate your comments but nothing you have said is new to me, I fully get your perspective, and I am not certain we are at odds at any point. If so, please point it out and I will argue with you :P or submit your way >:( or convince you of the error of your thinking ;)
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BBT,
I was just emphasizing to BodyG that we were both saying it wasn't some evil conspiracy by the ITSF, but absolute resentment of Valley-T's actions to listen and act on ITSF's suggestions, with no input from its hand that feeds it, US foosers.
I believe I gave a very apt example, using the tennis analogy, with national federations and an international (especially the Open era professional one) body. Just to highlight how ludicrous Valley-T and its failed 10yr promotions and growth projects are.
And the final part about Asia was to highlight that despite all the damage Valley-T's negligence and whatever funky vision Farid and his ITSF have, and DESPITE all his detractors or critics as well, There is a sleeping giant that will eventually make none of them matter. And they play a mix of Tornado or US power foosball style and Euro. Neither of which would have ever come to be and contributed to world foosball techniques and success if they had all played on one homologated table.
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It's funny cause a softer ball would make it easier to tic tac. Aso, havent you read all the posts where people hate the hard balls, and how how everyone pretty much unanimously
agrees that the fussier balls are better. Not sure where the Euro conspiracy theory came about.
-zeke
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It's funny cause a softer ball would make it easier to tic tac. Aso, havent you read all the posts where people hate the hard balls, and how how everyone pretty much unanimously
agrees that the fussier balls are better. Not sure where the Euro conspiracy theory came about.
-zeke
I agree, that softer balls would make for an easier tic tac. On the one hand, yes it increases beginners' playability and decreases their time to develop that one, maybe two, passing series they will use until they die.
Which is why it is a much harder skill level to dribble the current most common Tornado balls. A lot more practice and lot more dedication. Players who have fast tic tac series live at a higher pulse than the others, especially those who would develop these to the highest degree. From watching and living competitive foosball for over 25 years over four continents, I would have to say very few players at the tournament level would have ever developed the number of tic tac series on the 5bar with a softer, stickier ball. Instead they would have developed the multiple back and front pin series, just as the TS players here and the Euro players have developed. Unless you can show me some monster tic tac'ers from those players. And a lot of oldtimers, who curiously don't have any decent tic tac 5bar series compared to the newcomers that started with Tornado, keep whining and complaining about the snake/rollover, conveniently forgetting that they're still losing most of their games because the younger rollover gang keeps GETTING THE FRIGGIN BALL with much better passing.
The best & most dedicated foosers, playing in a harder, stricter environment, those who conquer it, have absolutely no problem dumbing down their 5bar series on a slower table, and are monstrous at an enviroment like that with rockhard balls. They don't whine like others, who don't even have a busted spine, they just bust through it. Know anybody like that? Someone who could represent the best of the best in American power foosball ballcontrol and passing ? Some World Champion maybe?
Similar to the professional billiards tour, where they have the absolute fastest tables, with a touch required that brings out the very best, the most extreme. The most practiced, who will dominate people playing them on the slower "kiddie" tables, and absolutely step on them on a professional table. It brings out the absolute best, the ones willing to practice and perform at the edge, despite pain and stress. You also see this with tennis on grass, with the speed and low, often bad bounces. That is why Wimbledon, hands down, is the most prestigious of all tournaments in tennis.
Normal players? I wouldn't mind playing easy "chump" courses in golf, either, but I would never wish to have Augusta National or Pebble Beach reworked with 2 ft wide bunkers, no water, and inch high rough. Of course I'd love to play the "chump" courses if I were playing with some good pros. So I wouldn't do as bad, just as those who want the softer balls are asking. But otherwise, I'd want them to be even harder, so I can see the best playing the best. I have no interest in watching amateurs play on dumbed down tables, and I would rather watch & emulate the elite players, AND BUY their promoted products. I would rather watch NASCAR and Formula 1 than races with cars my grandma could drive to the grocery.
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FK,
okay, now we can disagree - you present it like the change takes you to cork balls...
you present this like an either or/black or white issue open and shut case...two extremes....it isn't like that, we are NOT going from Grass to Clay or hardcourt to clay...we are talking about a small move from hardcourt toward clay - again NOT to clay, just toward clay
Your assumption is that the ball and table changes are "dumbing down" Tornado and I don't think that is fair. These are NOT wholesale changes they are tweaks and they are designed to make the table play more complete and more accessible to more people not ruin what you present as the best table play ever made. These tweaks are meant to be done without losing Tornado's distinctives.
I can't speak for Tornado completely since they haven't declared their final ball choice but I can speak to the Warrior ball which I have played with (on Tornado). Also, I know people who have played with one on Warrior and one of these people owns a Warrior table.
This ball isn't anything like the extreme differences you are talking about but it is a difference and in my opinion, and many others, it improves the game. The player who owns the Warrior is a budding pro who is a tic tac freak and he absolutely loves the ball and it has done nothing to slow down his interest in tic tac, if anything, it has made him even more aggressive.
Everyone I have read, PM's and down, like the ball and consider it an improvement. The only complaint has been that lower level players can catch the ball like a PM. It could be argued that this makes competition better not worse. Irnoically the most frustrated person I read was Tony because he thought his extra work on the table was somewhat neutralized. Thing is, all the same best players won at Warrior so I think the extra catching is overstated as far as its impact to the game...in the end, talent and practive still win out all things being equal.
Your comments about Tornado players dominating on the so called "dumbed down" tables is just not true...you don't need to look any further than Billy's record in Europe and the US at the first World Cup.
I understand the general principle I started on TS and it was such a hard table to play on going to other tables seemed easier in many ways. Funny, even with these table changes the Warrior doesn't have any more control, probably a little less, than the TS brown top I still own.
The other table changes on Tornado are to try and make the table to allow a fuller game i.e. banks and angles allowing it to do what TS and other tables always could do.
Foosball needs to be more accessible to more people, if making it easier to play for beginners and accomplishing this creates some compromise, I think it is short-sighted, even selfish, to not go forward.
Now, I have stated on other threads I think this should happen with a series of balls...
Beginner - which is shipped with every home model - softest ball - very soft, tons of control
Tournament Level 1 - for people who want to get more serious and move toward playing tournaments
Bar Ball - current Tor red, maybe even harder
Proffesional Tournament Ball - Tornado Red hardness minus a couple %
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BBT,
you present this like an either or/black or white issue open and shut case...two extremes....it isn't like that, we are going from Grass to Clay or hardcourt to clay...we are talking about a small move from hardcourt toward clay - again NOT to clay, just toward clay
Going to the softer ball and changing the men's feet is not a gradual or small move. I would describe this as comparable to when they allowed Premiere League and FIFA players to add or even incorporate the vulcanized rubber strips on the front (contact) uppers of their strikers' shoes. Allowing "hook" and "curveball" shots previously impossible. I can understand a lot of the former TS players wanting to go back to the old symmetrically rounded feet, but the equivalent of using a spaghetti racket is not minor.
Everyone I have read, PM's and down, like the ball and consider it an improvement. The only complaint has been that lower level players can catch the ball like a PM. It could be argued that this makes competition better not worse. Irnoically the most frustrated person I read was Tony because he thought his extra work on the table was somewhat neutralized. Thing is, all the same best players won at Warrior so I think the extra catching is overstated as far as its impact to the game...in the end, talent and practive still win out all things being equal.
Extra work .. exactly.. So you're suggesting that the non-elite runners in the 100-meter dash at the Olympics or World Championships only have to run 90 meters? So a lot of players that never put in that extra amount of practice or time or intensity can now compete? Of course that will make the competition better! That would also be contrived, and not make foosball better. And just as a pool shark will give out a spot to a duffer, say the 8 or 7-8 ball to win, the pool shark will still win most of the games, but duffers who have no business being there will be allowed to survive longer than they deserve to be. Aint no spots in professional championships. You could say I'm closer to a purist. Perhaps for the non Open events, I could agree, but not for Open. Oh and yeah, just as I said, Tony Spredeman's statements about his extra work being neutralized.. He still won but games took a lot longer than they should have, because nimrods who had no business surviving that long were doing so. Along with the additional game lengths and conflicts thus generated,,, it just screws up a tournament.
I can't speak for Tornado completely since they haven't declared their final ball choice but I can speak to the Warrior ball which I have played with (on Tornado). Also, I know people who have played with one on Warrior and one of these people owns a Warrior table.
Nobody speaks for Tornado, at least no US players.. They're like the Willy Wonka factory and their Oompah Loompahs only take orders from your buddy , Farid ....... ;D JUST KIDDING!!!! :D And I have no problems with the Warrior table or balls. They're going their own way, with US input. What a concept!!
Your comments about Tornado players dominating on he so called "dumbed down" tables is just not true...you don't need to look any further than Billy's record in Europe and the US at the first World Cup.
Yes, it may take Billy a bit, before he went and won his first Euro championship, which he doesn't practice for. And he stopped seriously practicing (from him) after he proved he could win and dominate in 05. But he has the "hole-shot" into travelling there and his previous history. What do you think TMac and Tony would do there? So where is this argument leading? That if you're a US fooser, started going to Euro and World Cups, you're going to have to dominate immediately, not take time like even Rico did or Dieter Thiele before him? So the Austrians must be the friggin best pound-for-pound foosers on the planet? And they can go and kick Canadian, Belgian, US, French and Italian *sses all over ? What are you saying Billy's record in Europe proves? Let's see how the Coulters and other young'uns start faring since they won't have the disadvantage of not playing on those tables during their formative years.
Rico said he won every match he played, but that format won't allow him to play in 5 of the 9 matches, so he must really be weak. Just like Billy.
Now, I have stated on other threads I think this should happen with a series of balls...
Beginner - which is shipped with every home model - softest ball - very soft, tons of control
Tournament Level 1 - for people who want to get more serious and move toward playing tournaments
Bar Ball - current Tor red, maybe even harder
Proffesional Tournament Ball - Tornado Red hardness minus a couple %
I agree with using dumbed-down easier-to-control features for beginners and rookies. I believe Pro and Open championship tables and features should be at the extreme, to showcase the best's abilities to adapt and dominate on a very hard (meaning tough) playing field. Just like it is in billiards, bowling, golf, and tennis.
I don't know if I'm alone, but I would rather play on the harder tables with the better players. I might not be as good as them, but I don't wish to be comfortable and suddenly be able to do things I never practiced, I like the edge and I don't mind the beatdowns. I just practice harder and try to figure out how to change my play, especially when a new shot, defense, or system shows up in the play. And no, I don't think the Warrior is dumbed-down. I like that ball right now, but Oompah-Loompahs have proved they could go to cork balls if so suggested for Valley-T. Maybe because the French say pleeeeeaase.
Obviously many others just want to play at that table in the corner, with the duffers, non-tournament players, and beginners. You see this at a lot of venues.. So to each their own.
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first two sections I won't quote because these are long enough already but the changes aren't anything near the extreme examples you give
"Along with the additional game lengths and conflicts thus generated,,, it just screws up a tournament."
you are just reacting to change...no not reacting but Over-reacting...your examples, proposed impacts, and assumption of motives read like extreme sweeping over-exaggerations
there is no evidence it “screws up a tournament” KY ran fine and the right people won…what is screwed up, a few PM’s had to take a little longer to waste their weaker competition? I hardly call this screwed up, for those playing below it let them play slightly longer and made them feel good to snag some balls they didn’t used to get at. Some might argue this made the tournament better.
“Nobody speaks for Tornado…Oompah Loompahs” way too funny, I’ll file that for future use…very funny
You said, "Yes, it may take Billy a bit…"
I only brought Billy up as one example but no American hard court player has gone over to the “dumbed down” Euro style tables and dominated. The fact that they are the best of the US Tornado hard court players means, and according to your previous statements, that they should be able to totally dominate on those inferior tables. But, this hasn’t happened in the last 2 ½ to 3 years that the top US players have been going over there including Billy’s long stay this year. Tommy A was the closest last year but he is just a pure freak and you could put pea sized marbles on a polished stone surface with men that had hard polished dense metal feet with no ridges and he would go deadman with his eyes closed while you pulled on the deadman rod and collapsed the bumper as much as you could.
Don’t bring Rico up, it will do nothing to bolster your argument.
You said, “I don't know if I'm alone, but I would rather play on the harder tables with the better players.”
I don’t have to decide its either or…Warrior or a slightly modified Tornado will not keep the next Tony S from appearing any more than those dumbed down Euro tables (as you call them) kept Fred from emerging…when determining how good players will get, it is more about the foosball environment and the individuals personal will than it is about one table verses another
Your assumption/theory is that hardcourt tables produce better players BUT this is an untenable position
There are many variables that may have gone into US players being considered (by many but not all) the best players a part from the fact that the last 20 years they have played on Tornado a primarily hardcourt table…
there is the explosive growth and fad of foosball in the 70’s, serious slow tournament play was developed early in the US foosball evolution, communication of knowledge through internet, maybe even that US players having gone through TS, Dyn, Tor and have had to adjust accordingly along the way. These and other reasons could have and most likely contributed to US player development as much or more than a hard court table.
Also, the difference between the current Tornado model and the new proposed Tornado are not that significant…they are noticeable but noticeable doesn’t mean radical and major
And last you say,
“Obviously many others just want to play at that table in the corner, with the duffers, non-tournament players, and beginners. You see this at a lot of venues.. So to each their own.”
This makes it sound like anyone who doesn’t agree with you falls into this category…this is another “if this, then that” extreme logical fallacy.
Some people who are very competitive players who love the game and its history may disagree and prefer a table with a little more control...
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BBT,
I'm discussing how these changes may affect Tornado which is still the dominant brand of table and the default table of choice across the US 50 states and you cite IFP and a Warrior tournament. And then you take my words about dumbing-down Tornado, clearly speaking about the feet and balls ON TORNADO, and then you try to show that I'm regarding Leonhards, Jupiters, Tecball or Fireball, or Bonzini's as dumbed-down tables? Now you're putting words in my mouth. Especially ones I would never speak.
If I'm over-exaggerating them I'm trying to prove my point. Sticky balls make players snag passes & grab loose balls they would otherwise never would have caught because of less experience and practice (i.e., they suck). They survive longer and extend game times. That would logically extend a game, wouldn't it? But unless we scientifically start measuring the game times for hundreds of locals, regionals and main events across the country, neither you nor I can declare that this would be a noticeable effect. And that doesn't make the case for you nor I. I have my opinion and you yours.
I discussed Billy because you brought out his example, and yes he would totally dominate the majority of Euro players as he does here.. ON TORNADO. And I'd say he, just as Rico has done, would adjust as well to playing other tables including the Euro-types, and that is the only theme. He is one and Rico is another. And the format of international play, which the ITSF is still evolving, would not allow any single player, not even Rico, to dominate. You have to have several top players. And about talkin about Rico, I met him at Worlds in the mid 90s, and he's a good friend of my two-time worlds partner, Tony Caruso from Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I can certainly talk as much about him as much as you.
I only expounded on the harder play of current Tornado's and I never said that the elite wouldn't come through from the junior ranks, and my "purist" preference for those who play and get better faster on the harder table. That was my preference, because all the new players I've met that became foosers were not willing to just play friendly pickup games, they wanted to learn and get better. You're telling me you don't have instances where there's a group that will play at a side table and wish only to play socially between themselves and will never join your local or go to a place specifically to play foosball? There are tons of those. And I don't waste my time with them... That's all I'm saying there. Do you have several seasoned tournament semipros or higher that would rather play at those social tables than get in to the tables where it's kill or be killed?
You have your opinion and I mine. I may go overboard in trying to put analogies to work to better explain what I mean, but you're twisting and mixing several themes and statements together and then saying they don't make sense.
I totally support IFP and Mary and the pressure she brings to bear on Valley-T's heavy handed, justifiably business-centric actions, but if she and others fail, then everyone deserves what they get. At least they tried.
I have thoroughly enjoyed playing on Jupiters, Lehmachers, Lowen and Garlando and Roberto tables, and would love to play more than the few times I've played on Bonzini's. They are a different game and dumbing-down a Tornado does not mean making it more Euro-like... All I'm talking about is the difficulty of the TORNADO table, and keeping it as challenging as possible.
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All the speculation on the new "softer balls" is interesting...somewhat...except for the fact that VD is not switching to them. The new balls will be basically the same as the previous version except for them being a bit darker in color. Anyone who tried out the new 2009 Tornado models at the Tornado Worlds will attest to the fact that they played better than the tables that the tournament matches were played on. In a survey of players in Vegas, the soft ball was rejected and the "similar" hard ball was an overwhelming choice. These are the balls that will be used next year.
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Jim,
I want to say thank you for keeping at Inside Foos, I hope it has grown into a decent living for you, you deserve it for staying after it - don't know what the sport would do without you THANK YOU
on the new T balls...it seems the balls introduced with the tables down in Texas were not the same ball that was tested that you refer to...it was rubbery and bouncy from all the report I read and heard
I got the impression T wasn't going to go with that ball after all the feedback...do you have an inside (excuse the pun) track to know that T settled on the first ball you mention below?
I guess I will know soon enough, either way, I am looking forward to it and to play on the new table...i am in the minority I am guessing but I am very excited about the new side strips...i naturally make a ball jump and the strip just makes it twice as bad and I want to shoot banks...I am dubious that the foot design change will make that as clean as I would like but hey, I will take what I can get
love the new look of the table, it is sick as they say now adays
thanks again...you keep filming and I will keep buying
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Yep, got the info straight from the horse's mouth. The softer ball that was tested in Texas (and Vegas) will not be used. It pins great, but it slows the game down and just doesn't sound as good when you score. The harder darker-red ball will be the new one. It will still pin great (and bank!) with the new crosshatching on the feet, but will also play very much like the Tornado ball we're used to.
Thanks for the kind words and Inside Foos will keep doin' our thang.
The audio on the new vids is awesome isn't it? Every tic, tac, brush and bank. You could hear the players almost hyperventilating during the 5th game and I've never seen Fred so vocal.
Awesome stuff. Git 'em while they're hot!
JS
http://www.insidefoos.com/node/491
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i watched the video, awesome snake.a question though, doesnt having the handle that far up on your arm rotate the guy over 360 degrees?
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The rule is 360 Degrees befor or after striking the ball so...if the man is on top of the ball, it dosnt make 360 b4 striking the ball....it is like 340 degrees....
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But like you said, there's also the 360 degrees AFTER ball contact, and that's where I think the real line is relatively questionable. There's alot of players who basically hit the shot, and let go of the rod... or seemingly do so.
I'm not saying that the shot should be illegal due to its popularity, but the 360 degrees following impact could sometimes be in question.
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i watched the video, awesome snake.a question though, doesnt having the handle that far up on your arm rotate the guy over 360 degrees?
Added to the uniqueness of Tony's game is how he "holds" the handle. Take a closer look and you'll see that the handle is almost lengthwise on his wrist; from the base of his thumb to the bottom of his forearm. This is what gives him the control to move the ball around. A more standard wrist position doesn't allow the kind of quick lateral movement that Tony uses so effectively.
Rotationally, there's no difference.
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I've read that Tony uses his "grip" because that's how he started playing as a kid, and that he's just stayed with it ever since, even though it could be regarded as detrimental to the execution of shots. Does anybody know if that's correct?
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That statement is correct. Tony told me himself when he was younger he had to hold the handle that way and it stuck. That is also why he uses the far wall passing series.
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That statement is correct. Tony told me himself when he was younger he had to hold the handle that way and it stuck. That is also why he uses the far wall passing series.
Interesting! So he started using the far wall series because for a kid it's easier to see the far wall of the table?
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That makes alot of sense... I've noticed while playing that I have a better 'touch' when I'm playing far wall, but being able to clearly see the ball and man positions makes it easier to execute passes near wall. I've been working on a near wall passing series, but hope to expand the passing set to encompass the whole 5 bar. Tony's passing set is pretty sickening though.
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good to learn ball control on your 5 and have at least a working knowlege, eventually, on how to do everything both far and near wall
however, here is my little bit of advise...do what comes most natural physically, don't fight it...you can learn other stuff but understand your body so you know the difference of what comes natural and what you have to work on
if far wall feels more natural do it...there are advantages and disavantages on both sides and you will make the needed adjustments to the shortcomings of either side based on your committment to that side
some of the best 5 bars of all time have been far wall...Tony of course, Bacon (another Tony), Jeep, Spear (actually did both sides the only top player I know of that used both on and off even in the same game and equally good both sides)..hmmm, who am I missing?
anyway, go with what is most natural as often as you can every part of the table...some things you gottat do even if you can't find something "natural" but when you can, go with what comes easy and those things will become your go to stuff