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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: Old Meister on April 12, 2009, 11:51:43 PM
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How many blocks do you figure a goalie should make in a game to win, how many times should a good goalie score? I know that there are a lot of variables but in pro matches what would you say is good?
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You are right, there are a ton of variables.
As the saying goes, in a tight match, a goalie only needs to block one shot which can be the deciding factor in winning that match. I have been in several games with power forwards where they were hitting on all cylinders and I just made one block and changed the momentum to win that game.
One of the craziest games that I have lost, I blocked the forward every single shot... yes every shot and still lost the game. The goalie scored 4, and then on a defensive switch on the five, the other forward finally scored a shot on my forward who was now in the goal. Simply nuts.
As far as percentages go, anything that approaches 30 or 40 percent is excellent, especially against a top pro master forward. The goal is just so damn big and it is really hard to stop these guys. I have never found it yet, but I had a dvd of me and Thor Donovan playing Todd and Rico in Championship Doubles in which I blocked Rico at a 66 percent clip. I had him so confused he would call timeout sometimes to bring Todd up for a big shot. Though we lost that match, I considered it a personal victory because I had the world's best forward scrambling to score. Anything that approaches 50 and beyond is simply brilliance. There is a reason these guys are the top forwards and if you can stop them 30 to 40 percent of the time, you are excelling in your duties.
A good goalie does not have to score. What a good goalie has to do is CLEAR. A good goalie that clears will eventually score. The best shooting goalies are also some of the best clearing goalies. Whenever a goalie scores it is GRAVY. The team of McMillen and Gummeson did not become a great team until Tracy acquired defensive goalie skills.
What I live by,
Three areas of concentration for me to be a good goalie in a match. Be good in two out of three and you can win.
Blocking, which includes slop.
Trapping, not letting the ball out of your area.
Clearing, advancing the ball to a favorable position which includes scoring.
Ex. even if you are not blocking, all you need do is not let balls leave your area, and clear the ball down the table. If your forward makes one block on the five, you can win.
If you are not trapping, but you are blocking and clearing the ball. Your turnovers are not hurting you as much because you are keeping the forward out of the goal, which buys your forward time.
However, but being bad in two out of the three is death. Even if you are clearing, if you are not blocking and also not trapping, you are giving the opposing forward extra opportunities to score.
I've got two Iceisms for you.
It's not how many you block, it's WHEN you block.
You're only as good as your NEXT block not your LAST.
Hope that helps.
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It does. Thanks. I need to get with a good forward and work on the clearing aspect as I have a forward's mentality and shoot too much I guess. I had a great time at a bigger tournament and beat or blocked some of the "who's who's". Those matches I lost I still felt I had done my job as I knew I was blocking over 60% but wanted to know where to focus on improving. I shoot mainly from the push side, a push or push-kick and wondered what are some of the clearing options you would use?
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here's some advice from an amateur who plays forward most of the time and isn't that great at blocking. take it or leave it.
If you want to get really good at goalie, practice on one of the old valley tables. Those goals are freaking huge compared to these new tornado's, and the feet are wider on the newer tables as well. I remember when I went from my 70s valley-dynamo to the tornado, it was amazing how much better my defense was on the tornado.
Just my 2-cents
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OM,
Good topic. The advice that comes to mind ties in with the 2 basic strategies a forward uses - beating you to a hole and faking you off the hole he wants to shoot. If your race defense isn't working, bait him more. If the bait and switch isn't working, focus on timing the race defense more. I guess what I am saying is if you are blocking 30-40% of the shots coming at you, but most of the ones that do score fit into one of these 2 categories, let that guide you on how to adjust.
Tyler
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Oh I study everyone who is anyone. I show the hole they want in the random defense and then don't show it again so that half the time on that ball is taken up while they wait for it to show again, then I switch to make them reset and then go back to the first defense and block them as they go for option #2. Next ball I play with their mind in that I beg them to go somewhere, now they know I'm playing some s--t, well it all happens too fast to explain but is just a lot of fun to play "the game". In reading Ice talk about it I know he understands perfectly and could certainly take me beyond where I'm at. I think the game is, "get in their head before they get into yours". ;D
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.......As far as percentages go, anything that approaches 30 or 40 percent is excellent, especially against a top pro master forward. The goal is just so damn big and it is really hard to stop these guys. I have never found it yet, but I had a dvd of me and Thor Donovan playing Todd and Rico in Championship Doubles in which I blocked Rico at a 66 percent clip. I had him so confused he would call timeout sometimes to bring Todd up for a big shot. Though we lost that match, I considered it a personal victory because I had the world's best forward scrambling to score. Anything that approaches 50 and beyond is simply brilliance. There is a reason these guys are the top forwards and if you can stop them 30 to 40 percent of the time, you are excelling in your duties.......
I would agree wholeheartedly with GitaB, and I regard it as very close, at the highest levels, expert and above, to a collegiate or Major League pro baseball hitter's batting percentage, specifically the ability to protect the strike zone. When advising (more like consoling !!! ;D :D ) the goalkeeper, ESPECIALLY MY GOALKEEPER, I remind them that blocking 30-40 % against an expert or better forward is like batting 300 or 400 in a major league baseball game. And would you believe it, many beginner and rookie goalkeepers who can be blocking a decent forward at only 65 to 70% actually feel dejected in their performance, because they foolishly have the image of a "brickster" or 90% or better blocking, as the only good goalkeeping. A major league hitter with anything above a sustained 450 clip (Slo-pitch Softball numbers) would be an instant legend!
In advising or instructing newbies and scrubs, it often helps if they've played some baseball or softball. The "mano-a-mano" old cowboy draw duel is much closer to the 3bar v Goal D of foosball. And in a tense, close match with money and or titles on the line, the pendulum swings from absolute terror/despair to high exhilaration, although a pitcher and batter are regarded as defense to offense, they are almost analogous! Much more so than classic field soccer, where the goalkeeper has to contend with other incoming attackers, header shots, etc..., when not in a penalty kick situation.
Those newbies quickly get the idea of blocking to protect the plate (strike zone), and they more quickly realize that they can defend from a standstill (race D) or a motion D, very similar to the hundreds of individual styles of swinging you see in college and MLB and South American baseball. Making contact is the most immediate and important factor, no matter how one gets there. They easily understand the importance of stance, alertness, and learning to anticipate an incoming ball without giving away which part of the strike zone is going to be swung through (which part of the goal to be covered, in foos, of course).
Especially at the highest level of both games, where the pitcher or the shooting forward are deadly, and not very prone to giving away hits or homeruns (in foos, a block cleared to one's own forward, or even scored as a "stuff" or spiked point), the typical first priority is to hit that ball and not allow a called strike: protecting the zone.
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It does. Thanks. I need to get with a good forward and work on the clearing aspect as I have a forward's mentality and shoot too much I guess. I had a great time at a bigger tournament and beat or blocked some of the "who's who's". Those matches I lost I still felt I had done my job as I knew I was blocking over 60% but wanted to know where to focus on improving. I shoot mainly from the push side, a push or push-kick and wondered what are some of the clearing options you would use?
I will post tonight about clearing options from the push side. Turns out that I am one of only four pro goalies that use the push exclusively in competition. As of late however, I have been using a center series to clear the ball.
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Garrett Scherkenbach shoots a push from goal doesn't he?
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Yes he can but he doesn't exclusively, actually he sets up a pull now, but he rarely plays the majors anymore. He also used to do a center series.
Gena Murray, Dana Marr, David Radack, and I are the only pros right now using it as the main series. Although as of late I have been using a center series to clear sometimes.
I will post push options tomorrow, too late tonight.
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When you say you´re using a center series to clear the ball, does that mean that banks are possible now on the new tornado or are you using other options.
Also looking forward to your push options. I´m just learning it to clear the ball.
Anyone who´s interested, there are really nice stats about shooting percentages and passing percentages on netfoos.com. it´s worth a look cause it´s really surprising.
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My personal thinking is to try and block one shot per game on a hot forward. Then shoot five for five. The assumption here is equal attempts on the three row, five each. Of course this is only a hypothetical...
Oly
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I like working off a back pin in setting up my push or pushkick, rocking it close handed. Often I will make a little hook pull on the pushkick just to throw off those who think they will pick me. Thanks Jonny for the heads up about netfoos.com. I'll check it out. Also, how did you do in your tournaments?
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Hey OM,
I bought the book you advised me to and another one I find really interesting. I think I´m already improving. I took second in OD this weekend at a P4P tournament with 250 players and finished 5th in OD at the Tecball WCS. That´s why I´ll put a lot more focus on the mental side from now on, there is so much space for improvement. I liked the mental thread on this forum a lot. Lots of good stuff.
By the way. I figured out that holding the handle more like tony does improved my shot by 100% in consistency and accuracy but also in speed. Maybe it helps you as well if you´re still working on the long snake.
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Joe,
Taking 2nd in open doubles out of a field of 250 is fantastic - sincere congratulations, and for the 5th as well. OM is very in tune about the mental game and you are obviously reaping the rewards of his input. Fantastic all the way around, especially when you can seek advice, take it, apply it, then share the outcome - many thanks for this as well!
Take care............................................Tyler
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Wow Jonny! That's great! I was hoping you would post how you did. I still work on that long but keep going back to your video on youtube to try to understand where you get all that speed so long. Dang! It's almost like a whip cracking, lol! I'll have to study Spree's technique to see what you are talking about. Tyler, thanks for the kind words. But I think Jonny would have done well regardless. I can see his head is in the right place anyway just by watching him. But being true to the path of a pro he seeks to strengthen every part of his game where ever he can as evident by his changing his grip to improve an already killer shot. We might have to rename the shot from Jet to SST. LOL!
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Sorry, I don´t get the SST joke. I guess you´d have to be american :)
The thing I changed is that I bent my knees even more and am holding the handle more from underneath, kind of like Tony. Maybe if you play around with it for a while you´ll find a better position than you now have. Having my arm in a 90° angle between upper und lower arm is absolutely essential for me on tornado. Then I bring my upper arm to a position where it is nearly at a 90° angle from the rod. That´s why holding the handle from underneath is better for my shot, because otherwise my lower arm would be parallel to the rod which doesn´t support the rolling motion.
Thanks again for your advise.
Bye,
Jonny
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SST> Super Sonic Transport ;D That's what we call the French jets. The position you describe is what someone called the "Crouching Tiger" stance. Just the stance alone suggests explosive play. I will have to try it out and see how it works on your shot. Interesting,,
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Hey OM,
I bought the book you advised me to and another one I find really interesting. I think I´m already improving. I took second in OD this weekend at a P4P tournament with 250 players and finished 5th in OD at the Tecball WCS. That´s why I´ll put a lot more focus on the mental side from now on, there is so much space for improvement. I liked the mental thread on this forum a lot. Lots of good stuff.
I'm happy that the book suggested by OM helped you with your game think and attitude and all, but did you happen to find out what other book the one who won the P4P tournament was reading - that must have been even better! :o And what books and articles were those who took 1st through 4th in the TecBall tourney reading? I'd like that in my library, too! ::)
By the way. I figured out that holding the handle more like tony does improved my shot by 100% in consistency and accuracy but also in speed. Maybe it helps you as well if you´re still working on the long snake.
Now that book, whenever Tony or his shadow-writer comes up with it, I'll buy in hardback! 8) 8) 8) I'd hope that Tony's book will have very little in terms of self-awareness and self-realization and your place in this universe, but lots and lots more about how to hold the bloody handle correctly, and how to be consistent. Y'know, hopefully in the same vein as the centuries old "Bushido, the death of Tupac, and the way of the Samurai" or something, some philosophy and a ton of "How to F*cking Do Dis and Do Dat, and Rip that git of a D", instead of "Are you really here, right now, and should you REALLY be doing that?" Word. >:( :P
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Huh?
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Huh?
I like the mental attitude and philosophy books as much as anybody, OM, but I was just commenting on how Joe (congrats on your upcoming nuptials!) said simple techniques like Tony's grip could also help tremendously (100%?) with one's game. Now if Tony ever broke down or got a shadow writer, ala Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan, or even got a shadow video producer, to show his techniques HIS WAY, I'm saying I would crave those even more.
I like to read nuts n bolts type manuals and books.... perhaps its the engineer or "How'd YA Do It?" in me. For example I'd like to know the theory and philosophy in a backpin offense, for example, and EVEN MORE SO, how it is applied, in steps and in alternatives depending on outcomes and the D, of course. As well as drills to ensure proper execution in a game situation. WORDZ..
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That's fair, this thread is about theory and mechanics of being effective as a goalie, not the mental game so I get where you're coming from. If you are asking how I approach using the back pin from in back and why I like it and what I try to do with it, I'd be more than happy to tell you. For me the back pin push close handed is my most natural shot. I shoot it from a smooth rocking that I change position of by tap walking it around. I play on the switch area and can go short or long on the push, can do a pin pull back angle or straight (and wall)to clear. I can shoot a push kick from it which I can shoot short or middle and if I go long I might do a hook pull to finish it off as when it gets to the far side switch zone often times I will catch the defense in the switch. I can do the reverse from the pull side and might shift the thumb up and go palm for some power on a pin pull or pull kick. I used to go for banks from that point, either direction, but it's a good way to get picked so I stay away from it for the most part. Mostly I just work the push from the rocking position and keep the man close so as to not have a tell and then mix it up with the push kick. These are where I mostly score from as I can hit both sides of the goal and can shoot from different points so as to keep the D guessing. So what do you use in back?
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...yeah, I remember when I had my first beer.....Steve Martin
:)Tyler ;)
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;
So what do you use in back?
Very interesting, because I used to do a very similar set from the far or "pull" side in nets. Even nowadays, it seems so useful because a lot of forwards and teams in zone D seem to have a harder time timing and anticipating the actual release of the ball, a major advantage of the backpin. It just so naturally obscures the actual ball position, whether it's ready to be stroked from the middle or central back of the ball, or on either edge, and also where's actually being pinned, and if it's being pinned at any moment. A hanging or no-pressure pin close to the ball just hides the release or actual shot. I've played over the years with several "old school" defenders, some of whom actually have a pretty slow but extremely smooth backpin far series that always seems to clear anyway. And score...
Of course, having been based the last two decades in South Florida, going more often to Texas, Louisiana and Georgia events than other super-regionals, plus the influence of the Tampa-Clearwater-St Pete (Horton-Starczewski-BobbyDiaz-Yore-Yore-Yore-Cody-Sine-Pruitt-Ino-Green) always made me wish to get a ripping short, middle, deadbar long pull from back, either sprayed or square... with transposition into a very long pull kick.
I have those now, and I'm working on a strong push/push kick series from back, too. But your discussions on the backpin also reminded me of several superior features with goal-side backpin series'. The trick is I like to break down any series into the basic features and steps, making it easier to show a noob or rookie. A backpin series is the closest thing to jazz improvisation, so the best way I could think of teaching it is showing the basic features, like certain pins, how to be sure one's in firing position, how to read the dots, etc... and then have the noob practice this all over. Not as clearcut and simple as a set or even moving pull or push series, or a tic-tac series, for that matter.
As you know, duhh, I'm a strong strong proponent of the Center Zone D, with the forward absolutely responsible for all away-from-goal passes and banks, and any goalplayer that thinks he/she should share the obsolete short-long goal coverage with the forward (forcing the forward into giving up on stopping banks, brushdown passes and overall off-goal clears .. usually to a very good snaking forward) is basically a moron or more like an idiot in my opinion. But that's just me. I've been looking for a killshot or clear against those forwards who wish to be superheroes and shut down the center, always going for the on-goal stuff, relying on their fantasy Flash ability to trap the off-goal passes and clears that his/her goalkeeper has ABSOLUTELY no hope of doing ANYTHING against. I've been experimenting, and these forwards (many many idiot wannabe superhero forwards in foosland) are suckers for a backpin series that can brush on or off-goal or clear/pass without any tells on the release. Something else to work on, so I can automatically switch into it the moment I realize the forward thinks he's Spidey.
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'Killa, one of the shots I seem to have good success with from back with a back pin is to "toss" the ball to the other man, either push or pull and hit it cross center. This toss is not a reversal push or pull-kick but a stay on top of the ball and toss which prevents the tell of the release. It makes for a nice option, the reversal, the straight pin and the pin toss kick as well as the reversal kick all of which can be done in the push or pull.
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'Killa, one of the shots I seem to have good success with from back with a back pin is to "toss" the ball to the other man, either push or pull and hit it cross center. This toss is not a reversal push or pull-kick but a stay on top of the ball and toss which prevents the tell of the release. It makes for a nice option, the reversal, the straight pin and the pin toss kick as well as the reversal kick all of which can be done in the push or pull.
Thanks OM,
That actually sounds "painful", but it also sounds like it should work pretty well! I'm gonna try that after practicing it a several dozen times. It needs good "feel" of the ball, so I'm going to try it by starting with some ball control passing back and forth FIRST, for each shot, to increase the reliability and the touch to shoot it smoothly and immediately after the toss from the other 2bar figure. And being able to shoot it smoothly from either figure would even be better.
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When I shoot it I'm rocking the ball at the switch point, which is where I might shoot my reversal push with a spray or squared to close side of goal(reverse it for the pull). But if I shoot the "toss-kick" it's done hard and fast and is struck on the away side of center and cuts back to the close side of goal. When both the reversal and the toss-kick are done from the same motion it makes problems for both the goalie and the forward.I I really shoot it hard as that is what makes it work. I don't know how this falls into your central zone D scheme but I would guess that it would find some chinks as the ball moves away but angles back, or not,,,
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OM,
No, I believe that your "toss-kick" shot series, especially if done consistently and smoothly and deadly quick from both sides, would be a good zonebreaker. Any lapse on the Central Zone D (or any zone D for that) matter, where the defenders fail to switch defense lanes correctly (either of the two center lanes) and actually open a "cone" to an undefended corner could be quite effective. In fact, its nature of "jumping" across the zone is almost exactly what a zonebreaking shot has to have, like a fake in a basketball game to draw more defenders and doing a cross-court pass to the open man on the other side. That or a good off-goal passing series.
Central Zone entails simple logical division of labor between the forward and goal, so they still have to have the discipline to maintain it. I believe Central Zone D is the easiest to demonstrate, show its philosophy, and to maintain. I've tested it time and time and again with noobs and rookies. It puts a simpler load on the goalkeeper, in fact stupid simpler, which is necessary for a beginner/rookie team with the weaker and least experienced player most logically in nets. And the opposing "toss-kick" backpin goalkeeper would still have to have a well practiced takeoff and release to jump the other side of the zone, just as any good under-rod tic tac (back and forth) zonebreaking goalkeeper shooters have.
But by then it's become a game .... again ..... with both sides trying to out-execute each other, with survival chances more even. Designed to shut down just about all those "cheap" quicksets, including banks and fakey off-goal passes that more experienced players will throw at 'em. It will no longer be the usual tsunami that runs over the weaker team. And that's a lot to have for a young and/or very inexperienced team. What more can one ask for? Pros and ProMaster teams can decide to all stay on the near or far wall, with the players' feet up in the air, either for a fake or "fuh style points", because they HAVE the skills and experience, anyway, to close off the center shooting lanes and the passing or banking lanes on the sides and make it work. For noobs, it's dance training with numbers on the floor, of course, and the motto is now:
Keep It Centered, Kid, And Stupidly Simple, Stoopid ! Or K.I.C.K.A.S.S.S., for short.