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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: kayko2000 on September 13, 2009, 02:21:49 AM
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For my next article in FoosLife, but also for everyone on this forum's benefit:
It's no secret that emulating the best players is a great way to learn and develop a wider range of skills. We don't have enough advanced players in Taiwan for new guys to copy. So I'd like to compile a list of the gold standard players for particular skills. Kind of the "if you want to learn [skill], you really need to watch [player]". There are lots of guys I don't even know because I haven't been exposed to enough footage.
Can you guys help me fill in this list? (or suggest people I should remove)
THE BEST OF THE BEST
Rollover
- Pappas
- Spredeman
- ?
Europin
- Rico
- ?
Pull
- Loffredo
- Tracy McMillan
- Horton
- Gummeson
- Yore? (or not really?)
- ?
Push
- ?
Stick passing
- Gummeson
- Spredeman
- ?
Brush passing
- Rico
- ?
Tic tacking
- Spredeman
- Moya Tielens? (or not really?)
- ?
Front-Pin Defense (I kind of see rollover and europin defense as being the same, but maybe I'm wrong)
- ?
Pull shot Defense
- ?
Goalie 2-Bar offense
- Loffredo
- Pappas
- ?
I should really keep this list spare and let you guys (the experts) help me fill it in.
I put Spredeman there, but every time I watch Spredeman, I realize I can almost learn nothing from him. His method of playing is so unique that it's not easy to learn. Seriously, who tic tacs like that?
After a few days and some responses from a handful of guys, I'll re-post this thread with a cleaned up version for everyone's benefit. I'm sure some of the newer players on this forum would find it helpful.
Cheers...
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My two cents, it's a shame that a lot of the guys you need to watch will not be on the list because there is little or no footage of them but I will do my best to give you names of those who have footage.
Rollover.
Pappas, the most explosive one out there, quickest to the hole, very hard to bait.
Spredeman, also explosive, but hard fakes create the holes he wants to shoot.
Ryan Moore, not as explosive but the most aggressive rollover shooter. Hard fakes and speed.
Last but surely not least, the Great Terry Moore, the most dominant rollover shooter to date. Smooth, fast, and great reader of defenses.
Not the only guys to watch, but four of the best.
Europin.
On the Tornado, The list starts with Rico and ends there. Because of the characteristics of the ball, no Euro has become as efficient as Rico. The only one close was Dieter Thiele of Germany.
Being a Texas player, the pull list could get very long. And yes, please take Tom Yore off the list. His pull is good but has never been one of the best.
Some guys to add to your list.
Pull shot.
Fernando DeRosa, pure speed.
Pappas, unmatched speed and power, simply sick.
Tommy Adkinson, best quick shooter in the game, momentum player, very scary.
John Smith, smooth and powerful.
Charles Britt, at one time considered the best playing. He possesed a talent most speed and power pull shooters never aquire. Finess. Ability to hit every hole with speed, power, and finess. You never knew what was coming at you.
There are many others, but you can find footage on these guys.
Push.
No top forwards shoot this shot because of the limitations involved. Not saying it can't be done, it's just easier to shoot other shots.
Gena Murray, Dana Marr, David Radack, and I are the only goalies on tour that I recall use it from the goalie position exclusively.
I will combine your stick passing and tic tacing because the stick pass is the best option out of the tic tac series.
Tic tacing and sticks.
Johnny Horton, until Tony showed up, he had the best tic tac series. very quick and a lot of options.
Rick Macias, nice tight wall and a very high lane, and could throw in a brush from the tic tac set.
Tom Yore, a Horton disciple.
Pappas, nasty lane wall series.
Two players you will be pressed to find footage of.
Ahmed Geyeth and Denis Ory,
Denis Ory, the nastiest lane wall series known to man. The series that Pappas uses is based on this guys pass. When Denis is on, nobody stops his five.
Ahmed Geyeth, very similar series to Ory's but with brushes thrown in.
Brush passing, There are many.
Terry Moore, smooth hovers, great reader of defense.
Steve Mohs, like Terry, smooth and great reader.
Steve Murray, big hovers, and big fakes, would make you just freeze in any position.
Charles Britt, a Murray disciple, also big hovers and fakes, both Charles and Steve were very deceptive passers.
Scotty Wydman, a million and one ways to go up.
Far wall passers Jeep Perrie and Tony Bacon are good ones to watch.
Mike Archer, really tight hovers and great reader of defense, high percentage passer.
Steve Mori, credited with inventing the brush pass, his pass is so simple it is great. If you can find footage of him, watch closely.
Front pin and rollover defense is totally two different worlds. Rollover shooters mostly concentrate on three holes, pin shooters options are almost limitless.
Again I will combine the two, because the best goalies are just that, the best goalies.
Tracy Mac
Todd
Louis Cartright, inventor of the "Louis Shuffle"
Brandon Moreland
Bob Diaz
Rob Mares
and yes, Rico
Two bar offense.
Add to your list Tracy Mac
Rob Atha
Rob Mares
Ryan Moore
Terry Moore
and when he played with Mike Archer, Brandon Moreland.
Just a few name to add to your list, hope that helps.
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That's a great list. A few of those guys I've not heard of... so this is educational for me.
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If you want to study the European style of play, I suggest you watch the P4P (Players for Players, German tour independent from the ITSF) matches. The DVDs are available as free torrents from this site:
http://foostracker.homeftp.org/rss2.php
Watch out for updates, because after a week or so, there won't be enough seeds online.
The content of the DVDs will be available here as pdf-files:
http://www.players4players.de/Videos.videos0.0.html
Scroll down to the lists below the years. Keep an eye on the following players:
- Rico, of course.
- Jamal Allalou (multi-style)
- Frank Brauns (EFP Middle)
- Christian Szüle (EFP Pull, stunning brush pass 5-row)
- Thierry Müller (EFP Push)
- Gilles Perrin (EFP Pull)
- Ronnie Falk (EFP Middle)
- Dirk Wahl (EFP Middle)
- Niko Voigt, Johannes Müller (Rollover push -> weird shot, but effective)
- Silvio Müller (Walking Snake Middle)
Other free downloadable videos are available here:
http://forum.battlenation.org/?bnpage=download
To register, klick "Anmelden", type in your data, scroll down and klick the button "Anmelden".
Interesting players are Allalou, Stoepel, Siebenrock, Balic, Falk, Mann and Hoffmann.
.
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I'd like to put this into our next issue of our foosball magazine.
gitablok, can I credit you for for your information? Sorry, I don't know your name (you listed "I" below). Would be great if you could provide just a bit of background on your playing experience for our readers.
To thebodygroove, I think I'll focus on Tornado style of play for now since that's the type of table used in Taiwan. Although, I will maybe distribute your information to others who are interested.
To WashedUPOleBastard, where would Beine be listed?
OK, just cleaning up gitablok's list, we have the following.
Any other names to add?
Rollover
================
Billy Pappas
Tony Spredeman
Ryan Moore
Terry Moore
Europin
===========
Fredrico Collignon
Dieter Thiele
Pull
====
Todd Loffredo
Tracy McMillan
Johnny Horton
Dave Gummeson
Fernando DeRosa
Billy Pappas
Tommy Adkinson
John Smith
Charles Britt
Push
=====
Gena Murray
Dana Marr
David Radack
(gitablok)
Tic tacking and Stick passing
=====================
Tony Spredeman
Moya Tielens
Dave Gummeson
Johnny Horton
Rick Macias
Tom Yore
Billly Pappas
Denis Ory
Ahmed Geyeth
Brush passing
===========
Fredrico Collignon
Terry Moore
Steve Mohs
Steve Murray
Charles Britt
Scotty Wydman
Jeep Perrie
Tony Bacon
Mike Archer
Steve Mori
Best Goalies
==========
Tracy McMillan
Todd Loffredo
Louis Cartright
Brandon Moreland
Bob Diaz
Rob Mares
Fredrico Collignon
Goalie 2-Bar Offense
===============
Todd Loffredo
Billy Pappas
Tracy McMillan
Rob Atha
Rob Mares
Ryan Moore
Terry Moore
Brandon Moreland
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Kayko,
I would suggest adding Bruce Nardoci to the Euro pin category. He has been in the winners column almost every year for 35 years at Bonzini/Rene Pierre events here in the US, and I believe won Sr. Doubles at Bonzini Worlds in 2008 - an amazing record of success and consistency.
Respectfully......................................Tyler
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Europin.
On the Tornado, The list starts with Rico and ends there. Because of the characteristics of the ball, no Euro has become as efficient as Rico. The only one close was Dieter Thiele of Germany.
Well my brother Gilles (mentioned by thebodygroove) owns a Tornado and he can shoot on it almost as well as on a Lehmacher (maybe even with more power !), problem is he/we didn't make the trip to the US so far, and you're right the ball's characs make it really hard for us to play our game on Tornado... But I still hope we'll come anytime soon, maybe for a Warrior tourney, as I've heard this table is more "euro-compliant" :-)
You can see him shoot quite a bunch in the youtube montage I posted in the video section of this forum.
If I can get my hands on a video-camera again, I may go to my brother's place and film some of his stuff on the Tornado, that would be interesting ;-)
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gitablok is Ezekiel (Ice Man) Moore
hard to add to your lists, they are really good...couple of comments
Scotty Wydman: pretty most people on your lists are active players and I haven't seen Scotty playing for quite some time - also, I don't know if I would call his pass a Brush...its sort of a hybred...its closest to the old chip up series but not really...very simple and super effective...I have several passes I do specically from watching him
to me, there are 3 kinds of pass series
Tic Tac/Stick
Brush/Chip
Hybrid (both above mixed)- there are two pure hybrid passers I know of that belong on your list...Johnny Horton and Trevor Park and maybe Scotty belongs in this group
Trevor Park: as i said above Pure hybrid passer...in my opinion, when Trevor is on, which is most of the time, he is one of the best players of all time...his weakness seems to be mental and so occasionally has had some break downs but I would put in him Best Passes, Best Rollover, and Best 2 bar offense
now your list, like I said, seems to be pretty much only active players but if you expand the list to players you can see on video there would probably be others
Tom Spear: Hybrid although most brush...some argue the best 5 of all time...passed far wall and near wall equally well and would move from one to the other and one of the smartest pulls of all time - I understand Scotty Wydman is a Spear disciple on the 5 bar - one of the great singles players of all time...last big win and I think it is available on video was 1994 Worlds
Don Chalifoux: one of the great goalies of all time, Tony Bacon's partner and probably the best racing goalie of all time - might be hard pressed to find video on Tony and Don
Ron Nevois: one of the best 2 bars for sure of all time although he is a forward....I think his forward pull shot should be considered but for sure his 2 bar
Terry Moore: might add Terry to best defensive goalies and if you had a category for Singles 2 bar I would have him on that list
Ryan Moore: I think Ryan's 5 bar belongs on the list...probably consider him a Hybrid because he does a sort of tick tac brush thing...simple to look at but very effective...sort of like Scotty Wydman only he moves the ball more before passing
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It's hybrid. ::)
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Sure, doesn't hurt to further distinguish a hybrid pass. Would you say that "hybrid" implies doing a brush or stick equally well out of a tic tac? Or that sometimes the player may do brush or stick, but possibly with different set ups?
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a hybrid is when someone does a mix of stick and/or tic tac and brush and/or chip
so, if you see Terry Moore pass, he is 98% brush and throws in a stick every once in a while but if you watch Johnny Horton, you can never be sure when he is setting up a pass if it will be a tic tac/stick or a brush...watch the 1000 ways to brokeland video and you will see what I am talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSsdnzS-Qa8
Trevor leans probably a little more toward Brush but it is out of a hyper tick tac and he is almost as likely to do a tic tac type stick...dang, i was trying to find some YouTube video of Trevor...lots you can get from InsideFoos but not much online ... the years he and Cartwright took second to Fred and Todd you can see what I mean about Trevors 5 bar and rollover not so much his two bar - to see his 2 bar you will have to see video of him playing with Billy last year
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now if it was me, I would add a couple of categories
2 bar offense - Singles
2-5 passing - only two names needed
2-5 defense
5 bar defense
Defense against the 2 bar - Singles and Doubles
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BBTuna, I'll add the other guys you pointed out. Would you mind also providing your name and where you hail from? (or would you prefer I just use "bbtuna"?).
I apologize if I don't know everyone's background...
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2-5 passing - only two names needed<---
I assume Spredeman and Rico?
Those are the only two I've seen do it from the limited tape I've watched.
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Arthuro Carletta is (well actually was... :-( ) huge at this too, I think he may even be the first to have come up with this !
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i don't know if there is video on this other guy but yea, Rico and Spree...if you see them, you don't need to see anyone else - I don't care if you use my name or not, I am Charles Dangler, Missouri USA (right on the border of Kansas and Missouri so we are usually referred to as Kansas City because there is a KC MO and KS - very few players actually live in KCK or KCMO but we are all from the surrounding area
on the other categories if you add any of them
having a great 2 bar in doubles doesn't always mean a great 2 bar in Singles and vice versa...couple examples...Trevor I think has a great doubles 2 bar but not a great singles 2 bar where Terry Moore has a great Singles 2 bar but not a great doubles 2 bar. Then of course you have people like Billy or Todd that will rip you a new one in both...most good 2 bars can do both becuase good 2 is good 2 but it isn't always true in my experience
for sure, you should add best 5 bar defenses...this is an art
I will start the list but can not complete it, ICE or Brad would be really good resources for a more complete list
5 Bar Defense
Tommy Adkinson
Brandon Moreland
Tom Yore
Mike Archer
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now JH i know this is disappointing because it isn't all about you but it helps if you read the start of the thread to get the context of what he is asking and what he is trying to do...this isn't a debate about who is the best of all time at any one certain thing, this is a collection of people who can be seen on video who new players might want to study to learn how the game is done in its various phases - its intended as a training resource and allows for different styles and approaches
of course it would be helpful to follow people who really know how to win and play under pressure but I think that the lists gives you plenty of names that fit that criteria
you should be happy, your name came up quite a few times...I am certain you feel you should be at the top of every list and any new player could not go wrong following every part of your game with the exception of your bad poetry and often odd and extreme behavior - I know I have learned a lot and that is with very limited video access
Dang, I just noticed you got left off the Singles 2 bar list and that was just a mental oversight, I would definately put you down as someone to study for how to score from goal in singles
maybe we should add a category like
Head Games
or
Ultimate Ego
or
Unpredictable Personality
or
Not My First Rodeo
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Tyler,
Couldn't agree more about Bruce-plus he'll give time to answer questions about technique or rules.
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did you here something?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg
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I would not put Bob Curtains name anywhere on the lists you are collecting
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This thread has been dragged off topic. Please do not let the heading fool you, this is not a discussion about who is the best table-soccer player. This thread was about a gentleman trying to compile alist of players with great shooting and passing mechanics. Players who's mechanics could be watched by other players, in other parts of the world, to try to get better, and more proficient on table soccer. Players whos games can be seen on video so that other may study. Can we please keep with that topic, for the benefit of the players that the original poster is tryng to reach with his article.
Thank you
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Anyway, I appreciate everyone who's contributed to the original intent of this posting. I'll try to post the finished article (which won't be too far off what was posted here already). Just keep in mind that the article is more for the local Taiwanese players, who don't exceed Amateur ranking.
I've got a few more topics I think would be worth collecting opinions about - for everyone's benefit.
Cheers.