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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: sirflair on September 17, 2009, 12:30:28 AM
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Thought number
1. I do not think that people care weather the rod is hollow or solid, I think it is the weight difference that is where the preference lies.
2. Hollow or solid, quality is also an issue. Who wants a hollow rod that is bending out of shape all the time, or a solid one for that matter.
3.The best hollow rod I know of, ( and maybe the ONLY one worth using ) is the so called Mercle Rod.
4. It is not cheap to produce a rod of this quality and the wholesale cost is around 250-300 per set after all is said and done.
5. All 8 solid rods together weigh a total of 5 pounds more than a good hollow rod.
6. Impossible to sell tables in quanity to the home market with this added cost.
7. Is possible to use on tour tables only. Cost probly 30-40k. Better to put this money into rods or prize money on tour? The only other answer is that an extra 100+ players were not coming to IFP-warrior tournaments strickly because they played on a warrior table and then stopped coming to the tournaments for the sole reason that the tables have solid rods that weigh a few more ounces each.
8. I myself must admit I slightly prefer a Mercle Rod. But I also sincerly believe that if I was just a foosball player and not a manufacturer that the rod on the warrior table now is not a bad one and there is no way that alone would stop me from attenting tournaments that have bigger- better payouts, fun atmosphere, lots of freebies and special treatment, and smoothly run.
Now that you have graciuosly listened to my thoughts. I would like to hear yours!
All I can guarentee you is I will do the best I can to bring this sport to the much higher level that it deserves to be. It's not just about all the wheelbarrels of cash i am making on foosball ya'know.
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Thought number
1. I do not think that people care weather the rod is hollow or solid, I think it is the weight difference that is where the preference lies.
Sounds reasonable, Brendan, but unless you can find solid rods with the same or even less weight than decent hollow rods, it's the same argument. Most would prefer lighter, especially if at a regional or major, as the wear and tear from moving the rods would HAVE to affect players by taking more energy not just for practice but also for that last extra bit of speed during the game, especially during the latter ("money") days of the tourney. Warming up is one thing where that weight's an advantage, though.
Thought number
5. All 8 solid rods together weigh a total of 5 pounds more than a good hollow rod.
Do you mean the set of 8 solid rods taken together weigh only 5lbs more than a set of good hollow rods like the Merkel rod? Then that's roughly 0.625 more pounds per rod... or 10 oz extra. Like strapping 10 oz weights to your wrists while playing forward or back, or to those familiar, strapping on 10 oz boxing gloves on each hand while playing. Sounds tiring if one has alternatives.
Sounds like a winner, solid rods, with durability and low cost, for 1-4 hrs play 1 to 3 times weekly in a home gameroom or den, but definitely a bit heavy for 12 hours practice, warmup and competitive play for 3-5 days at a big event...
Thought number
8. I myself must admit I slightly prefer a Mercle Rod. But I also sincerly believe that if I was just a foosball player and not a manufacturer that the rod on the warrior table now is not a bad one and there is no way that alone would stop me from attenting tournaments that have bigger- better payouts, fun atmosphere, lots of freebies and special treatment, and smoothly run.
Having played years on TS, I feel the same way. And your tourneys can only get better and better. Although I would say it doesn't hurt in the long run to come up with a high-end tour table, plus one or two in-between models, besides the home model, to address market segmentation ... and doing it eventually but more slowly and deliberately won't hurt while following basic market penetration strategy.
And have you checked out that new Fireball "Pro" (not the basic Home) as seen on http://www.fireball-kicker.de (http://www.fireball-kicker.de) that seems to be doing well in China and India and SE Asia, besides Germany? If you could come out with some of their innovations and improvements obviously pointed heavily towards Tornado style table features and quality, you could come out with a Kick-B*tt, Take-Prisoners-but-only-for-Torture Professional Commercial grade Warrior table. That would be a really nice "dream" table...
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I say let the Warrior be a Warrior and a Tornado be a Tornado. One of the things we had going in the 70's was the different tables to play on. Each had it's own characteristics and that brought about different styles of play. The changes Tournament Soccer made in their own tables was more drastic of a difference than Warrior is from Tornado now. I think Warrior's R/D should be aimed the same direction as it started out, making a quality table that recaptures the play we enjoyed back in the heyday. A table where your imagination is the only limiting factor.
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I think Warrior's R/D should be aimed the same direction as it started out, making a quality table that recaptures the play we enjoyed back in the heyday. A table where your imagination is the only limiting factor.
Now that's a very interesting opinion about the core and focus of Warrior. If I remember from Brendan's first Warriors in Vegas at the 2003 Spectacular, that Warrior was even more similar to Tornado's, especially when they (the current Tornado's) had completely established their stranglehold with coin-ops with durability and standardization of play, if not the accessories or the components, at least.
And if I recall correctly, those changes started and implemented the past two years had more to do with not getting sued for patent infringements. Where did you get this insight that Warrior is made to recapture the play enjoyed back in the heyday of many more tables and styles? I don't see multiple models out, then or now.... all I see is trying to get ONE MODEL OF a home-model table produced and distributed at a very low cost, attacking the only market (at least then and recently) still vulnerable and accessible, before going on to coin-op commercial tables, after having built enough mindshare among foosball enthusiasts.
The Warrior seems to play well, but also at a very high similarity in style to the Tornado, still the 20year dominant commercial table for American style play, and in just about every foos venue except spots on the Eastern seaboard and a few others... And if Brendan and Warrior had wanted to recapture the old style of play, he could have just bought into the old TS or made his own copies of that style. Or even perhaps of the original Dynamos.
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I might be wrong, probably am, about the direction Brenden took. It seemed at the time that I heard he was old school and that his table would support that type of play better than Tornado. Yet it would be similar enough to Tornado to support modern day play also. Banks, back pins, weighted rods, it sounds like old school. I don't think a Tornado-Tournament Soccer cross breed would be such a bad thing. Thinking back to the days where each area had it's own style of play, Tornado was certainly aimed at the Texan style. The midwest and northwest had a little more flair and that type of play, old school, still has it's place if the table would support it. I guess I just thought that that was where Brenden was trying to go until everyone kept trying to get him to make another Tornado for less money.
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Well Bob if what is familiar is easier then I guess that is true. I was 25+ years out of the game and what I came back to was these Tornado tables. How would you like to come back and all they played on was Bonzini. You'd do like me, learn how to play on them but miss the table you could do your "stuff" on. I'm getting into a good place on these tables but there will always be something missing and it isn't about catching a ball. But go ahead and throw some insults. It seems you get off on it and then throw some christian verbage around as if to what, create confusion? Get a life,,, Why are you so angry anyway? That's how you come off,,,,
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There's also a lot to be said about coming to a newer table, alien as can be, and remastering it all over again. Dwelling on the past is an old fogie habit, like some poor souls in the chair at some retirement homes, not learning the new WII games, cellphones or the Internet, OR getting back into the senior community by simply watching current shows and interacting with the rest of the world. Just muttering about how it USED TO BE, WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE, COULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE BEEN. Hopeless. Decrepit and Lonely. Especially if one starts using religion as a crutch AND A WEAPON(?). I'm wholeheartedly Christian in ethic, AND I continue to follow what it says on HOW TO LIVE peacefully and honorably, while being mindful of everyone else in this world... I am disgusted when others throw religious dogma and scripture at others, like bigoted cultists and shut-ins, who despair of this world and think people are impressed by their ability to read, thinking it proves they were "righteous."
There's few things grander than adapting to a weird different table, like the look Nadal saw in Federer's eyes (crying) after he took him at Wimbledon 08 and the Australian Open 09. That look, "I own you, even on your best surfaces." I've always appreciated and welcomed that challenge to compete on the latest courts, fields, or locations. It might never happen again, especially with his injuries and all these other ones as young or younger than Nadal, but those moments are priceless. And being able to enjoy and play our beloved game well with friends and kids and grandkids (NO FRIGGIN TIME MACHINE NEEDED) is JUST AS PRICELESS. TODAY.
Otherwise you realize Alzheimer's could be EXTREMELY SAD, but a NOT SO BAD A thing, if one just HAS to live in the past and forget today's reality.. Or like being a messed up meth addict, oblivious to the world the addict can't handle anymore. Blaming one's kids, grandkids, friends, work along with the rest of the world, for others just trying to live and work and play with what's currently out there. The proof is out there with all these long-lived and long-toothed pro masters like Todd and Gumby still out there... We would do well to follow their choice, "Don't get mad or bitter, Get BETTER!" So I hope noone falls into that "doddering old rickety fool," complex, but continues to fight to live and make some difference to others, NOT JUST THEMSELVES, as long as god or "the universal intelligence" or even plain dumb*ss luck keeps them on this planet. I would hope everyone grows forever in any way possible, long as possible.
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And I would prefer that all Christians, before becoming smug and ever so self-satisfied with his or her "faith", or repentance, SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER BEFORE JUDGMENT DAY... Remember Abraham & Isaac?
How about these ???
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
What have YOU done lately? For your family, for your foosfriends, for your community? That's what should be coming from all supposed faithful, repentant God-fearers, not quotes from a Bible like a Rev. Jim Jones throwing invectives as if they were silver bullets. And I sincerely hope all the JACKASSES out there remember that FAITH IS NOT A PERPETUAL DEBATE TO BE WON, but one's spiritual commitment, underpinned by the solid rock of YOUR WORKS IN THIS WORLD. ONLY JACKASSES SEE THE DEVIL EVERYWHERE AND BELIEVE THEY CAN CONVINCE THE DEVIL TO BECOME OTHERWISE. STUPID.
That debate may be within yourself, but I daresay it better to keep it to yourself. IT only shows more doubt, more insincerity, more indecision from within yourself. Put a lid on it, your own mind and soul's dirty laundry. Better if one can talk about WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO WORK ON.
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I will say 'Killah that I have learned a lot on Tornado tables that I didn't on any of the others. Basically how to play without powering shots and still be fast. It's like these tables do the power for you and that is the trick isn't it? Not getting caught up in that mindset of powering shots when it heats up. Every type of table had it's type of play so you do learn on each. Those afraid of solid rods are as guilty of what they might accuse those old schoolers who do like them. Also, we are saved by grace,,,
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Yep, OM,
I agree that Tornado's seem to have a lot of features that help consistency and ease of power, and prolly why McCloud & company won all those awards, and they basically took over from 87 on, dominating almost all North American play, for over 20years...
Only product with all kinds of similar little innovations for durability and playability recently seems to be that Fireball. I like it more and more each time I read or hear about it. Everyone else, including Tornado, seems to be just adjusting or changing to fix what's broke or complained about. At least what's broken or dysfunctional in some ITSF braintrusts.
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Old Meister, you are more in tune with me than anyone else on this thread, Bob.C, I know who you are, played with you a bunch and played against you several times in the old days and you know..... I beat you every every single time,SINGLES and DOUBLES. so SHUT THE F.... UP.
Fooskilla as you know I went to a one man goalie.... that should prove something about the old t.s days and not the ITSF. If they tried to mandate that I would have put 7 men back there if I had to.
I must admit that I thought that i needed to improve the man over T.S. so I thought I did.
I have alot more to say put my typing finger is tired.
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Old Meister, you are more in tune with me than anyone else on this thread, Bob.C, I know who you are, played with you a bunch and played against you several times in the old days and you know..... I beat you every every single time,SINGLES and DOUBLES. so SHUT THE F.... UP.
Uh oh... hammer is coming down! :P
Fooskilla as you know I went to a one man goalie.... that should prove something about the old t.s days and not the ITSF. If they tried to mandate that I would have put 7 men back there if I had to.
I must admit that I thought that i needed to improve the man over T.S. so I thought I did.
7 men? LOLOLOL... That would be cool to see! I do wish Warrior would allow aerials again, like the old TS barnstormers cross country and cross-England used to do in the old days... As to the old TS days... you and I both know that if someone had put up a quarter mil $ tour, then a million $ tour using a table the players had to assemble from plywood before their matches, they still would have come out. For all those with wanderlust back in the 70's, it was either that, or stay home, play pong if your household was lucky enough (arcades hadn't ramped up yet) work at the MickeyD's (training for becoming a noisy Redskins fan.. ;D ;D ;D) watch the green grass grow, drinkin 3-2 beers.
I have alot more to say put my typing finger is tired.
I thought you had one or two of your Warrior girls delegated to that function! ?? :-\ :-\
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Thank you Brendon for that acknowledgement, I hoped I was right as I've been cheering your efforts all the way. When the coin-op is available I hope to buy some and set them up locally. The scenario of an old schooler showing his offspring how the game was played back in the day can be a positive experience as long as he doesn't feel the fool on a critical table. I think this has many times been the case. Boomers coming back to the game is a worthwhile sales target as they have the time, the money, the kids to teach and the memory of what was. A table that is satisfying to play is the last component needed. I keep hearing the thing about how it makes lessor skilled players play closer to the higher skilled players, well that is subjective to the table type. A Tornado player complains he can't do so well on a Warrior so by the same argument he must not be skilled enough right? Or it is just what it is, each table has it's own style of play and by mastering that table you have success. Keep true to your direction and vision Brendon, we already have Tornado tables and now we happily have Warrior tables.
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The classic contridicting complaint is that the LWSS (limp wristed spin shot) makes it easier for new players to compete and that is why it is good for the game, but a Warrior table makes it easier for the new player to compete and that is a bad thing.
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I still think it goes to the fact that skilled players will push the limits of what can be done on a table regardless of how it plays. The more playable the more fantastic the play, the more critical the more limited the play. We now basically see 2 or 3 shots at the highest level of play, limited play by way of a critical table. Playing within those confines are what most are used to now and they don't know what they are missing because of it. Old schoolers remember the days when it was like the wild west, you never knew what you might run up against, reversals, kicks, banks, curves, squirts, dinks, power palm shots, gone by the wayside,,,
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The classic contridicting complaint is that the LWSS (limp wristed spin shot) makes it easier for new players to compete and that is why it is good for the game, but a Warrior table makes it easier for the new player to compete and that is a bad thing.
That's only too true. But you know that if for those complainers, even if you put up a million dollar no-entry tournament with table features specifically tailored to those complaining, in their own living room, and only during those days and hours they were agreeable with, they'd still find something to complain about. Like the color of the table feet or something....
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even if you put up a million dollar no-entry tournament with table features specifically tailored to those complaining, in their own living room, and only during those days and hours they were agreeable with, they'd still find something to complain about.
That pretty well sums it up. We've become a bunch of whiners. If I lose because my game sucks, it's because my game sucks. If the table contributes to my game sucking (ie: warped playfield) I may not like it but I don't use that as an excuse for my loss. Usually my opponent is playing on the same table I am. His game may have sucked too, just not as bad as mine.
Just play each table for their own characteristics and learn to adjust. That's not to say Tornado shouldn't be reamed for their warped playfields. I just expect better of them, and it does appear they've fixed that problem.
As for Warrior, I still consider them a work in progress, so I'm cutting them some slack while they try to evolve into their final product. In the end, they're going to have to get the quality up to satisfy me.
(by the way, I voted for hollow rods on the other forum as a preference rather than a quality issue)
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for sure but I am looking forward to a table with Tornado build quality and best play qualities designed with the play characteristics of TS (or its equivelant) where all shots were equally capable of being executed...after 30 years, with a player/business man and a good engineer, there is no reason they can design the nearly perfect table
they may not push the engineering as far as I would like to cost no object but i expect the 2nd gen Warrior to be the best playing table in the history of foosball
i can't wait to be able to do banks from everywhere like you could on TS...you can do banks on Tor, just not all of them and not consistantly and not to 2 or 3 spots each direction on the 2 and 3 rods - you can shoot a push kick and pull kick but you can't do 100% of the options consistantly every time which is why there are so few of these in the game
you can do a back pin, i can tell you, but not like on TS
don't come back at me with an old guy TS blast...i have never been on the board as a TS homey and have embarced Tornado and have learned to like many things about it...but if I could, I would always pick a table that offered a playstyle that has more options
This is what I want and believe Warrior is close to now and will be in 2nd Gen
here is what I hope for...
Like Tornado
-Built solid for a lifetime of play
-Level indestructable surface
-Great bearing system
-Men and rods same length height etc
-Ball that lasts at least as long as Tornado stays round and rolls true its entire play life - already done, Warrior has the best ball of all time if it comes out the same way every time as it has so far - if I had my way, the only improvement I could make at this point would be make it slightly heavier
-Table with great tic tac capability
-Ball Return system solid and reliable
-Same size goal, height and width, greak goal box that sounds good and can take a beating
Improvements Over Today's Tornado and Warrior-Rod holes drilled consistantly at the same height
-Goal edges designed not to blow out
-Tournament version that has Merkel rods for at least the 2 and 3 rods
-A scoring unit that doesn't look like it was made for Toy-R-Us - scoring unit to be professional, tough, flexible and includes units for time outs and games
-men with Straight edges so banks and angles are at least as good as TS
-man/rod/side (or side strip) that are designed so that the ball doesn't jump off the table when shooting open hand shots from goal
-stable and weight - -
LEGS: i know the design of the Warrior already addresses this some with the leg coming all the way up the height of the cabinet and that is an improvement but what is gained in design stability is lost with the light nature of the table and so becomes near a wash - if it was me i would design a tournament table that had that basic leg design but I would build them to allow lead shot or sand to be easily put in or taken out of each leg to add weight
FEET: again, War addressed this with the bigger pool table feet which I really like but I think the connection point, the plate that attaches to the leg and the threading mechanism could be significantly improved - even with better leg design and wider feet, the leg leveler is the weakest point of the stability design - the plate needs to be nearly one with the leg and that threaded shaft, is where all table movement is transfered to when it comes to balance and so that design, needs some beefing up - make sense?
AND A Table That Has
More control without losing speed
Ball control chart
Low ball control Med Ball Control High Ball Control
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Glass surface Current Warrior Bonzini
tble rock hard Tornado TS cork ball
ball
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I've wondered about a slate bed like pool tables have, heavy and true or even a concrete bed as the forms and mix create the quality so just glue on the play field and call it good. But I like Bbtuna's direction and ratings. He pretty much "gets it" as to where things need to go.
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problem with slate or concrete is the immense increase in manufacturing and shipping costs. If you produce the legs right, they can ship hollow and they can be filled on site or at tournaments or not at all if you are a route owner and you have tables in places where it doesn't matter.
now i would look into making the legs out of metal like what is used for high end audio stands...this have some weight themselves but it isn't crazy excessive but they are indistructable and can be filled with sand or led shot. using led shot (which isn't cheap) with a 4 inch leg that went all the way into the cabinet, you could put 100 lbs in PER LEG...think about how that table would play
i would like play to be able to be very aggressive without causing jars and a design like this would go a very long way toward that end...the table would be stablized by the leg and foot design as much as is reasonable and the full loaded tournament table would weigh 550 plus pounds...now thats what I'm talking about
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Bump
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problem with slate or concrete is the immense increase in manufacturing and shipping costs. If you produce the legs right, they can ship hollow and they can be filled on site or at tournaments or not at all if you are a route owner and you have tables in places where it doesn't matter.;;
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Slate or concrete, OM? For the playing field? Wouldn't that create more problems wayyyy beyond just manufacturing or shipping costs? Part of the reason you can even decently grip certain balls, even on shiny, lacquered or laminated foosball surfaces is the slight, but definite "give" that the surface has, in conjunction with the flex of the rods and playing figures. Which is why they don't play the highest level pro basketball or other traction intensive gym sports or games on concrete, if their organizations can help it. Hockey with the ice over concrete has the express and opposite need for puck and skate slipperiness, so if tables went to slate undersurfaces like pool or billiards, it would alter the game into less of a ball-control game.
Might be fun, but even today's "Colorado clears" would get even easier to execute, as a beleaguered goalkeeper could much more easily pop the ball off a slate-bottomed field, despite giving it up to the opposing goalkeeper, same as hockey teams can purposely take an "icing" call, to stop the clock (deadball) and prevent a looming turnover and/or stuff near their goal. As a much weaker goalkeeper might, giving up the ball and relying on a stronger forward to steal or trap the ball up front. Another huge problem from the loss of "give" would be the added wear and tear on pinned balls getting hit, which would definitely lead to more persistent damage on the playing figures, and a lot more cracked playing figures.
I, for one, would much prefer better precision manufacturing to get tolerances down and have truer and flatter playing fields, which should be a one-time change, anyway, whatever the development costs. I seriously would have problems with a slate-bottomed, non-flexible playing field. I have a jump stick for pocket billiards, however, and on the other hand, I would enjoy being able to do "pop" jumps without executing an aerial lift of the balls. Which shouldn't be too tough with a slate-bottomed surface. Might be worth all the extra spare figures one has to order to replace broken figures. And my ball-control is relatively the same for under-rod non-pinned balls, and is almost as high as my pinned ball-control, anyway. So whatever.... More tic-tacs, no problema.