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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: gitablok on June 27, 2010, 08:10:05 PM
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Backpinner Bill Ray of Chicago is playing on live stream on the Fireball at netfoos
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I really wish I could have caught this. Does anyone out there know where I can get some videos of backpinners out there, front or back. I'm having a lot of success with this style, but I'd like to see it in the hands of a pro.
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I saw Ahmad Shadman doing backpins at the Nat'l tourney in St Louis a week or so back, check with Inside Foos to see if they have any footage of him. Also Carlos (TWIF) was there, he may have some video too.
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Here is one of mine....I do a dribble style. It isn't great because I was holding the camera with the other hand..
http://www.youtube.com/pinalyzer#p/u/21/_Rj17kTRa8E (http://www.youtube.com/pinalyzer#p/u/21/_Rj17kTRa8E)
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I'm playing a Fireball tournament on the 24th&25th. I have open singles, Am singles and maybe 50+ singles.(I won't ask my partner to accept such a wild winging game in dubs) If this table back pins like they say it does then maybe I might go a little backpin crazy. Straight push and pull pins, reversal push and pulls, push and pull kicks, side push and pull kicks(far men) and back pin banks. Oh yeah, a late arrival in back pin execution, toss kicks, the ball seems to arrive out of thin air at the outside angle in position and is SLAMMED IN! WITH AUTHORITY! and I've been asked which man hit the ball. Too sweet when it comes together. I love back pins, shake it like crazy and send it home with a thump! ;)
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I hope to play in the Fireball tournament in Georgia August 20th-August 22nd. Also interested in backpins and bank shots. I plan on buying one of the tables there. Does anyone out there know who I need to contact to preorder? I'll buy today, or at least put some money down to reserve a table.
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a good friend who plays with me all the time and has messed around with the BP because I shoot one and he thinks the BP is such a great shot...he is better on Tor than 99% of others at least because they nobody else shoot it...anyway, he was down in TX last week and got to play on Fireball and he was more excited than I have ever seen him because the BP was so great
he said its like the table was built specifically for the BP...the control and precise angles, deadman without trying, push and pull reverses super long and fast and more...
he set the men a ball apart and while holding the camera he set the ball up, moved it about 3/4 inch and deep split the guys...he said he couldn't even think of that on Tor and he did it first try...
he was at a DYP and was the odd man out but eventually wound up with a super beginner (only played a couple times before) and still won at least one match but he said with a low end, not that great, DYP goalie he could have won the tourney easy because no one could even come close to stopping him...the cut back is so precise and deadly it opens everything else up…know way you can defend it using a standard D…really, even a reverse would have the same trouble because you can cut back push side just as well
the goalie would have to move into an “I” (eye) formation to block the shot…he said, “I can’t believe what I can do”, he actually called me (which is super rare because we always text) and added, I can’t wait to see you shoot the BP on this table
in addition, overall he loved the tables, says the rods are super slick and the build, though not a coin op, is still solid and weighs 245 lbs…he said even though it is 100 lbs less than Tor it almost eliminates jarring because it is so sturdy
can’t wait, its gong to be great, I will get a coin op as soon as possible…
BUYING A FIREBALL
Contact whoever is running the tourney (see the tourn schedule over on the other board) and every site having a tourney this year is selling tables … $700-$730ish if my memory
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Mark,
The tournament in Georgia is being hosted/run by Mr. Phil Grable.
You can contact Phil by e-mail
E-mail address everythingwood@live.com
From what I have seen, the table are selling in the neighborhood of 700 - 830 dollars or so (tournament used), depending on the model being used.
You also might want to ask which model will be available for sale at the tournament (and used at the tournament for that matter).
The "ITSF Model" has the one man goalie
The "Tour Model" has the 3 man goalie
The ITSF Model is the better table, from what I have heard, and the cost runs a little more.
Both models play great, but I hear the ITSF model is a little sturdier, and plays just a hair better (smoother).
But I have NOT yet played on the "Tour Model". I am relying on other players for that information.
That is all of the information I have now.
And good luck with that backpin!!
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Great news. I can't wait to get this table. Thanks Pat. I got in touch with Phil and I'm waiting on the info before I write the check. The other thing I like about this table is that they're giving the option of installing alternate rods from other tables. I've seen bearing designed to be mounts for a true Bonzini rod. They even hold the bar higher off the ground to account for the longer legs of the men. I'm hoping I'll be able to practice many styles with this table. More than anything, I need this table so I can practice my passing. Anybody out there have an opinion of the passing game on this table? I talked to Brian Jones recently, who won the Florida tournament, and he said that you can pretty much pass just like Tornado, except that the ball doesn't tick-tack as fast. I really need to learn how to either stick or brush anyways.
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my friend says the table brushes and sticks great...the FL table might have tic tacked a little slow more from the choice of ball which is still sort of in flux but another quality of the table is how well it tic tacs, better than any other table made all told
give us a detailed review when you can
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Dang Bb, maybe you should do a little road trip and come out and play. A little backpinning mayhem. ;D
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Anderson,
The table with the ability to interchange roda from different tables IS NOT the one that is being used for tournaments, and is NOT the one that is for sale. To my knowledge. But I can contact Fireball and get a definitive answer this weekend.
Pat
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Was at the Milwaukee Open not too long ago and got to see Bill Ray personally work his backpin magic. What a fun table to play on.
Like many I am waiting for a coin-op version...a common complaint during the tournament is the number of times a ball would get stuck in the ball return tubing. There are 2 ball openings per side and there is a lever under the table to change what opening the ball should drop down into, and the ball would periodically get stuck at that lever point. At times it would get stuck to the point where you would have to literally pick one end of the table up and really shake it to get the ball to drop out.
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Pat, it would really be a shame if that was just a gimmick picture I saw. It seems to me that all they have to do is design different bearing mounts for other rods. This option is what first got me interested in this table. If you want to play different styles, different tables, but you only have room for one table in house, this table can really corner the market or at least be the first to get their foot in that door. Later I heard how well this table backpins and banks and that sold me on this table. It seems to me that this option should be model independent, but the issue would be who would sell the rods with the men. I doubt Alan would sell me the rod if I'm not buying the entire Bonzini table. I mean we're friends and all but he is trying to run a business.
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And the rods themselves would have to come from fireball, as they need to fit the Fireball table special bearing. I have seen the model with the interchangable rods, I have also played around on it a little (very little). The technology does exist. It is, however a different bearing to accomodate the differences in the rod height. Not to mention the patent issues with making and selling the different rods with different manufacturers men on it.
The ITSF Model table plays very well. HOWEVER, it is not going to play like a Bonzini. But it definitely provides for better execution of pin shots (front and back w/multiple options), bank shot, cuts, etc. Thus it allows more varied styles of play, yet still has the lateral control and speed provided by the Tornado tables. It is definitely a good table. If I were you, I would play on it before committing to buy it, just to be sure it has the qualities you are looking for in a table.
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What I envision on the multi-play table and rods is custom made men configured to the player. How great would it be to play with the weapons that you want to play with? I would love to tinker with different configurations that would allow me to play the game I want to play. This is the direction our game might take in the end and I truly hope it does.
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Bingo!!! Winner!! Dead on!
That would be my ultimate dream table, but it just won't work for most gaming uses, coin ops and the like. But at a professional level, a table like that would be the key. The problem though would be agreeing on a ball - I say who ever serves chooses - and the surface might be an issue.
Should we move this discussion to an appropriately titled thread? I didn't mean to take over a backpinner thread. We might get more players thoughts if we do.
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Other business can emerge to design different style men to fit on different rods. It would open up a whole new market.
You could even tailor your men to position. I would have a different design on each 3 man, but the same passing design on each 5.
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Just in case you haven't seen the foot yet, here you are. And now you see why it back pins so well. I might get some better detailed pics this weekend.
And the guy who wanted to purchase a table, if you can see if you can get the ITSF model.
http://picasaweb.google.com/ezemoat/FireballFoot?authkey=Gv1sRgCImCgNj1m9-49gE&pli=1&gsessionid=T67JtUGscPb-0NY2QmXjtw#5493957910799295522
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Myself, I think I would design a man who's foot could be interchangeable and adjustable in height by using a set pin system. Somehow I think all these hard angles we see on the feet would change to a more rounded design.
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round edges equals no chip passes and very hard to hit bank shots.
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Ice, that wasn't true with TS men. It would be fun to experiment. After a while I imagine a standard type or shape would emerge and then some table manufacturers would copy it.
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To tell you the truth I'm not sure either way. Bonzini men don't have sharp edges and I bank quite well on that table. I can't bank at all on Tornado, but had no problem on other German style tables.
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TS men feet were not rounded on the edges and I think that is true of Bonzini too...the edge needs to be a straight line but maybe not a totally "sharp" edge...the problem with Tornado is that the edge is not a straight line but rather like a small hill
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Sometimes, when I try to envision the physics of an action I go to the extremes to see if it makes it more plain what is happening. In this case I imagine a man with a ball as a foot hitting the ball. This is why I said rounded edges as it is the same scenario as a cue ball cutting the object ball. A small tipped cue hitting that same point but shooting straight ahead only imparts spin but does not make the ball squirt off at the angle it is struck opposite of. At least this is my madness. I am totally able to admit to being wrong and think it would be a lot of fun to be capable to change foot shapes in order to play and figure it out. ::)
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I am so glad you just posted. I was just getting ready to expand further on the idea of changing the feet. If not the feet, then the entire man. The fireball table opens up an entirely new market and I hope they follow up with it. Rather than designing one man, they have the potential to design several men for different playing styles. Since it is so easy for them to remove the rod and plug in another, one could just bring their own rod and play their own style against whatever style their opponent chooses. There would have to be a standard ball, but the mere potential of this is why I am buying a Fireball ASAP. I hope they expand their current goals for the foosball market. It seems that they are only trying to get into the market with an affordable table, but they have the potential to offer something that no one else has.
But on the interchangeable feet, you can apply that to any table. Each table would just design new men for the table, and players can then choose to put whatever feet they like. Would the other tables manufacturers buy into that idea?
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Anderson, I just played the Washington State Open on Fireball and I not only would have changed the feet but the head too and this is why,, I liked the light rods ok but the men also feel light so the feed back isn't where I want it. I'd like the option to make the men heavier for that reason. As far as the foot shape I would mute the hard edges of the faces making up the front of the foot. I'm not talking the sides, the jury is still out on that, but to round out the angular planes of the foot and play around with the cross section thickness of the foot also as it seems quite thick. I imagine that might deal more with how high the foot is above the table and also how high the point of the angle from one plane to the other is above the table. How all that translates into the feel each player is looking for in relation to their particular style and shot selection is what we are really talking about. Well it truly is an interesting dimension to the direction of the game. I would have loved to see the faces of those I played against this weekend if I were to pull out my own custom rod and proceed to shoot foos the way I know, not the way the table will let me. :)
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Well, I'm going to find out soon enough. I'm buying a Fireball in August, and I'm going to learn how to design my own men, and I'll experiment with them on my own table. Would there be patent issues if I just started designing foosball men for whatever rods are out there? Anyone know how one goes about designing and manufacturing the men? I think this idea can really take off, and if it does, it would all be possible on the Fireball, because of the ease of changing the rods. I guess it would be easiest to design a man with a removable toe and then design the toes, but that might affect the durability of the man. We'll see. I'm going to do it.
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Sometimes, when I try to envision the physics of an action I go to the extremes to see if it makes it more plain what is happening. In this case I imagine a man with a ball as a foot hitting the ball. This is why I said rounded edges as it is the same scenario as a cue ball cutting the object ball. A small tipped cue hitting that same point but shooting straight ahead only imparts spin but does not make the ball squirt off at the angle it is struck opposite of. At least this is my madness. I am totally able to admit to being wrong and think it would be a lot of fun to be capable to change foot shapes in order to play and figure it out. ::)
OM, you have forgotten about one of the properties of physics and pool and that is throw. In pool when two round edges meet, there is a certain amount of friction that happens. In other words, when a ball is cut to the left, the object ball is actually rubbed to the right first then it proceeds to left second. Speed and distance are also factors in how much that throw angle will be. That is why you see easy shots missed sometimes because of the english used on the cue ball,the object ball is thrown out of the desired path line of the pocket.
Now round edges and a ball...... do you get it now? That's why the older Tornado men do not bank consistently because speed, distance, force among other variables will affect the angle of the ball coming off the man. Now sharpen that edge, you lessen that time or " friction " when the man meets the ball. When you do that you improve accuracy and consistency because you have eliminated that " throw " factor. Other than the side strips, that's why the new Tornado men bank better... sharper edges. Even though the Bonzini's overall shape is round, all edges are right angles and sharp. That's why the banks shots and especially chip passes are just sick on this table.
Hope that helps in your madness OM.
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I hear you and know exactly what you are talking about Ice. I think you get a hint of what I'm talking about too and I really am keeping an open mind on all of it. What I'm looking for in play is the ability to dribble from front to back pinning and keeping in contact with the ball fluidly throughout all that. I was playing a style using that on Deutschmeisters and bluetop TS tables. In short, every option was on the table. That is what I'm after and I have a very open mind about how to get there. I really don't know what will give it to me but I do know what I want and it isn't about the table correcting my mistakes. I want a certain feel and to be able to customize the men is really something I'm looking forward to working on. If this is the direction of our game then we have yet to see the most amazing play. It really is on the Fringe,,, 8)
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Am I the only one who misses the Warrior table? Looking forward to playing at the Fireball US Open. Bill Ray was telling me that I am going to like the table. We'll see. So much of the control on the Warrior table was because of the ball. I hear some of these Fireball events are using Tornado balls. >:(
Anyway, came across this footage in one my digital file downloads and went on the net looking to see if anyone cares. It is always easier to shoot against stationary men but this footage should give you a good demonstration of a walking back pin 3 bar series. There are probably 5 or 6 other variations that I might try but this basically covers the main shots. Everybody says that backpin is no good cause you cannot hit straight and as you can see my answer would be why hit straight when you can split.
Let me know what you think and please do not show it to anyone who wants to learn how to stop it. :)
Ahmad
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Footage isn't too bad there Ahmad. Who did you get to shoot the backpin in that video :-\ ? Maybe we can see him shoot it like that in person sometime ;D
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I kid...I kid...
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Footage isn't too bad there Ahmad. Who did you get to shoot the backpin in that video :-\ ? Maybe we can see him shoot it like that in person sometime ;D
Hey Pat, The trick was I was pretending like you were in goal and everything seemed to go in. :)
I think towards the end the famous Persian Shadman nose makes an appearance so there is no denying it.
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It did look l ike I was playing singles. Like I would EVER move to the back and try to block something when playing singles. I simply make sure the men are in front of the goal, and not flipped up in the air.
Did I mention how good I am in Singles? :D
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Great stuff! The best backpin footage I've seen out there so far, except for Pat Ryan playing defense. I'd like to see some footage against a real D.
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I enjoyed watching Ahmad play when he was in St Louis this year, almost no one here does 3bar backpins and very few of us do 2bar backpins. When Ahmad was on a roll the goalies had little clue. Ronnie Nevois has an absolutely wicked 2bar reverse backpin (when he is in back, which begs question "why would you ever put Ronnie in back?", lol)
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Happy to report that the back pin works just fine on the Fireball table. I just played at the Fireball US Open a couple of weekends ago and had some success with the shot. It was a fun event. I played against Tony in the pro/am event and he decided to shoot a few back pin shots against me and scored a good dead man push side. And then he decided to show me that he can pretty much score any shot against me. Fun table! Faster than Tornado! We were using the new Tornado balls which is not the ideal for back pin because it loses its grip after a few matches. Dennis the Fireball guy and I had a conversation about the shot, I am not sure if I could suggest any obvious improvements to him since I have no engineering skills but I was able to show him how the Tornado ball slips out of place when the ball is walked. I think he is committed to a hard Tornado style ball. Hopefully he will come up with something that works for us as well.
Ahmad
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That part about Dennis being committed to the Tornado ball is troubling as I think Fireball table with a warrior ball would be outrageous and most old schooler's as well as euro players would love it. As far as hitting a middle from a back pin, it's but an easy matter of rocking in the middle and doing a short push(split standard defense) rather than going long. Done properly the goalie goes, "Huh?" Actually it is an easy shot once you're dialed in. Couple that up with a nice compact pull off the rock and the pleasing long push, well, the addiction to the backpin becomes obvious. The key is to stay relaxed and focused and using power when it is needed as it is what makes some of the shots hook like you need them to.
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At the Fireball tourney in Atlanta we used the older Tornado ball which really worked great for backpins. The ball has to have some grip. I agree that the newer ball slips too much. They have to fix the ball issue. As to the short push/pull for hitting the middle, you can also do quick brushes to get the middle.