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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: bbtuna on August 08, 2008, 03:17:03 PM
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I bought some Dynamo (D) balls anticipating they were like Warrior (W) and wanting to get a feel for that kind of play before starting on Warrior...the Dynamo ball is much better than the red Tornado (T) ball in control and durability...so far
but the D is slower due to the addtional friction caused by the fact that it has more control...I thought the T ball was perfectly round and smooth but after playing with the D ball I have to say the T ball could use an overhaul...T is clearly faster but more control means more friction which means slower
one of my foos buds brought home a W ball and it is DEFINATELY NOT the same as the D ball...it is slightly lighter, has a little more control, and rolls "smoother"...not straighter, but smoother...very well done...both the D and W ball rolls more true than the red T
either of these would be an improvement over the red T ball and I never thought to say that because I didn't think there was a better, rounder, more durable ball made...but hey, I am still learning
T is talking about a new ball too so it will be fun to see what they come up with
I still think the ball table manufacture's should find a way to Officially Brand their tournament ball (at least) so everyone will know when they have an "official regulation approved" ball...I don't know the manufacturing method but I certain it can be done...something like a logo with a stripe that goes around the ball on either side of the name, logo, league, etc....example
======Warrior/IFP=====C1===Official Tournament Ball=======
======Warrior=====C1===Official IFP Tournament Ball=======
you get the idea, other ways but the point is to do it
also, as I have said before, I think ALL home models should ship with a "beginner ball" which has even more control (Tons of control, regardless of how it wears but one that stays true-round) ...different color, different logo
there should at least be 2 versions (Beginner and Official Tournament) but if I was in charge there would be at least 4 different balls each with a different level of control and each a different color 1-4
(C4 being most control)
Beginner (C4)
Amature (C3)
Tournament Pro (C2)
Official Tournament (C1) this would have the least control but would have the same control as the D and/or W
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Should I take that as a recommendation to buy a few of the Yellow Dynamo balls, since there are no warrior balls to be bought at this time?
Would practicing yellow ball on a tornado improve consistency and everything else on a warrior table, or do you think it might be beneficial to play with a bit slicker ball to work on passing and shooting for consistency?
Thoughts/comments?
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I wonder what the count of missing balls was in Ky it was like every time you picked a table to play on the ball was missing put a logo on them they all be gone....lol
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I read, don't remember if it was here or not, that although some balls were taken, some balls also would be shot into the goal, and fall down the hollow legs. Someone said when unpacking their table from the tournament they found like 6 balls inside of the leg.
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Wow, Bbtuna, what a statement coming from you, a seemingly stalwart of the Tornado persuasion. Well you got my interest up. Lack of control has always been my beef with Tornado as it limits the wide open play we enjoyed during the 70's. With every variance there comes into play a different effective style. I always liked to catch the ball with a pin and if it was right, go into a shot. Not really hacking but more a freedom to go with the flow. Tornado really put the hamper on that. Since getting back into the game I've struggled with my "foos identity". Maybe with a little more control I could make the double reversals "dance" again, front pinning a ball and going away and back so that the ball comes inline as I come back around to pick it up with a push that almost seems to happen mid-air, the dance. Can't do that on Tornados and that translates into lack of freedom of play. So, like I said, You've pequed my interest Bbtuna. Which ball most closely comes to the Warrior?
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I'm pretty sure that the yellow dynamo ball is the closest one available at the moment.
I'm surprised you can't buy the balls off the Warrior website yet, however, I guess they're still in a fairly early phase of existence.
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Control is a big plus with the warrior balls I cought several on the fly with a pin didnt go in to a shot but it could be done easy ,I didnt hear about the hollow leg but if I buy a table Ill give it a shake and get the one that rattles the most, I always need extra balls..
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synronis,
i don't know, there are two schools of thought...to practice with a slicker ball, which is much harder, will force you to learn overall skills...I mean, if you watch Fred on Tornado you see what can be done even with a red ball and when you see him on tables with tons of control it is unreal
everyone seems to have made the transition from T to W in well less than a day, most in less than an hour so you wouldn't hurt yourself to not get the yellow D ball while waiting for the W
i have gotten 6 D balls and they are fun to play with and I will tell you what it does to my game on W but that will have to wait until Nov at MO States which I plan to go to
i can tell you for sure that if you do get the D ball, you won't want to go back to the red T ball, it feels like a rock on ice compared....
let me say, it adds control, but it doesn't have the kind of control Bonzini with cork balls has but it is a big improvement compared to T...AND it is a better all around ball
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Wow, Bbtuna, what a statement coming from you, a seemingly stalwart of the Tornado persuasion. Well you got my interest up. Lack of control has always been my beef with Tornado as it limits the wide open play we enjoyed during the 70's. With every variance there comes into play a different effective style. I always liked to catch the ball with a pin and if it was right, go into a shot. Not really hacking but more a freedom to go with the flow. Tornado really put the hamper on that. Since getting back into the game I've struggled with my "foos identity". Maybe with a little more control I could make the double reversals "dance" again, front pinning a ball and going away and back so that the ball comes inline as I come back around to pick it up with a push that almost seems to happen mid-air, the dance. Can't do that on Tornados and that translates into lack of freedom of play. So, like I said, You've pequed my interest Bbtuna. Which ball most closely comes to the Warrior?
I beg to respectfully disagree, since I played for a year with Pascal a beginner player, now back in Belgium, who was a Jupiter & P4P player. ALL, I mean ALL, his pass catching from 5bar to 3bar was to a pin.
He went back to Belgium this spring, and never had a complaint about the control, just like Rico and all his friends used to sticky balls and tables. A couple of beginner players tried emulating his technique, and it wasn't too long before they were passing brushes, sticks, and bank passes to a pin. Of course it was the techique and philosophy that many Euro players share that was the solution, nothing to do with the table.
I am sorry to say that had someone showed you, or you had found someone to show you the right technique, you would have none of these problems. I believe anyone can use the right technique to play whatever style they wish on any table. Just the breaks. And the willingness to adjust from the old way.
Too many well-intentioned players, screwed up by whomever they first learned from, think because a technique worked, that it should work or something's wrong with the table.
Example: You see a lot beginners being taught to point their 3bar feet away from the 5bar to help catch a pass, which is ridiculous from the point of view of good passers. Good ones have the 3bar straight down or even pointing backwards, and just catch the ball, having learned to "give" with the shock, and having maximum time to control the pass. And that's why there's a whole generation of morons who never figured out why some players just have those "sick" passing sequences. They can't figure out the "shock absorber" at the end of the pass, or why they rarely let a hard wall or brush down slip through, ever.
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Ah, Fooskillah, when I learned foosball there wasn't anyone to "show you". We were the pioneers. Thus we learned to play the game as the tables allowed. Every different table had it's own effective play and we complained when it changed but adjusted just the same. I've played Bonzini tables and I've played Tornados. How far apart could two tables be different? So when I say a certain table allowed freedom of play, it means just that. Not limited like the tables are at each end of the spectrum.
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Warrior ball makes the game easier for beginners. Thats probably why you like it so much.The warrior ball and table sucks.
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John, just because a table is different doesn't mean it sucks. I think there's alot of good virtues to the warrior table. Look at some of the Euro tables, especially Bonzini... I mean it looks like a toy. Do the players complain about it? No, they play the table for what it is. They don't equate it to other tables. I'm sorry if you had to step outside your comfort zone.
Your comment holds little weight on the situation, due to the fact that there's no actual factual background to back up your claim to the table sucking.
A few things to remember: The table was home model, the table was still going to have modifications made, the table is not tornado, and different does not equate to suckage.
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John, there's nothing wrong with a table that makes the game easier for beginners. Foosball is a game that should be shared with all, but it also has one of the steepest learning curves of any of the others in its class (billiards, shuffleboard, airhockey). Anything that will help people who want to actually learn techniques is welcomed in my opinion. I also think highly of the Bonzini table. I haven't had the opportunity to play on the Warrior, but from what I've heard, it works and people like it. It's not a Tornado, but a 2008 tornado ain't no 2000 tornado either.
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I'm with you for most of what you say Syronis but I lost you at "Bonzini ....looks like a toy???" I'm mainly a Bonzini player so I may be a bit biased, but come on - a toy??
It's the only recognized table made of real wood, the players are made of an aluminum alloy and hand painted. It's a piece of art!! And other than a few minor tweaks (i.e. milling the side of the player feet) and ball modernization (composite plastic from cork) the Bonzinis from today and forty years ago are almost the same.
No offense to the Tornado and Warrior players - they seem to be great tables - but I can't keep track of how many versions of these tables (especially Tornado) that have come out in the past couple of years that are supposed to be THE top model. Have you heard of 'Bionicles' by Lego - same story - give it a new colour and a new model name and sell it again ------> Toys.
Okay, maybe I'm more than a bit biased. ;D
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I'm sorry for any offense you've taken in my comments. I've never really played a Bonzini table and based my judgment on aesthetics only. I shouldn't jump to conclusions, and after watching some Bonzini videos I appreciate it a bit more.
I'll agree with you that Tornado has to many "top" models. It seems to be changing almost yearly. I'm still not comfortable with Tornado tables, I learned to play on a Lehmacher and played a bit on P4P when I was an exchange student years ago. I've never faced anybody decent at foosball to really gauge an opinion on Tornado. Mostly from what I do know, is that I really like the speed... but I hate the ball, but to that token I love the sound the ball makes cracking the back of the goal. I don't really understand why they decided to flatten the table and use 3 goalies, but it's become somewhat of a standard in a lot of american tables for some reason.
The main point I was trying to get, is that every table is different, and just because you may not like it doesn't degrade the quality of the table. I've seen way to many threads here and on other forums about how people don't like the Warrior table. Most of the comments are all geared towards making it play more like Tornado, which I find completely unnecessary.
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I am sure the beginers had to adjust to the tables like everyone else I lost my long pull and my euro rev could not shoot either one the extra stickeyness of the ball wouldnt allow me to slide the ball that little extra I need. Ill get it worked out sooner or later ..
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No offense taken Syronis. If you do get a chance you should try to get a game on a Bonzini - obviously a different feel but - as you implied - we should really celebrate the differences of the tables - not homogenize them. I don't have much Tornado experience either but have witnessed some amazing play on these tables. The good players don't seem to have any issues with lack of control though I can appreciate that the added control (and alleged banking possibilities) with the Warrior would be appealing.
Where does the Lechmacher and P4P fit into the control/speed spectrum?
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This one's off topic, but if you're looking for a ITSF recognized toy-table it's definitely the new Roberto Sport Adrenaline!!!!! Talking about cheap material..... ;D
Back on-topic: I hope there will be a Warrior table soon in Holland to play and see how it plays. I look at the table just the way it is and try not to compare, because it's a different manufacturer so you'll never get a Warrior the same as a Tornado or a Leonhart like a Tecball or vice versa and so on, so better see the table as a Warrior and except the way the table is with it's own characteristics to overcome and learn to deal with as a player.
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Fastert, if you're looking for a table that most closely resembles a Warrior table, you should try to play the new German Fireball table. It seems to be fairly similar in design. I'm not sure how the rods and everything else play into it.
Honestly Basso, I couldn't really tell you wher P4P and Lehmacher tables fit into the overall spectrum. I would say that the control is slightly better due to the angle of the feet, but the speed is just a hair slower. You'd probably have to ask somebody who plays on all kinds of tables, and somebody who is a lot better at Foosball than myself. I haven't been involved in any regular foosball activities for many years, and am trying to get my own table now to practice on.
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Fastert, if you're looking for a table that most closely resembles a Warrior table, you should try to play the new German Fireball table. It seems to be fairly similar in design. I'm not sure how the rods and everything else play into it.
I haven't had the chance to personally examine the characteristics of the Warrior but I seriously doubt it's really similar to the Fireball:
Warrior Fireball
W-Ball T-Ball
Massive rods Hollow rods
Tornado feet Newly designed feet
Sidestrips Seamless surface lifting
Surface? Lehmacher surface
Where does the Lechmacher and P4P fit into the control/speed spectrum?
Lehmacher's P4P and Tecball both have a lot more control than Tornado, which also makes them significantly slower.
I'd say it looks like this:
Tornado Warrior Fireball P4P/Tecball Bonzini
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little control/high speed extreme control/low speed
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Can anyone place other tables onto that? I'm sure Fabi and many others are on the left of tornado/warrior too. how about roberto sport, techball, garlando, rene pierre?
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I'm not trying to say the Warrior table doesn't play like Tornado. The Warrior table is built in China. That should say everthing.The table is built extremly cheap.Thats why the table is junk and falling apart after playing on acouple of days. I dont know if you have every seen Warrior golf clubs or Skate board, but they are built cheaply also. I don't think the table will ever be built better. Its all about the money for Warrior, that why its built in China.( Cheap materials and cheap labor) Tony Spreaderman said why bother putting so much time into getting better.When the ball and table just evens out the skill level more. Yes the table would be good to put in boys and girls clubs, arcade rooms, and anywhere kids play. But the table should never be for big tournaments. I don't think Warrior Table is going to change the quality of the table other than making a coin-op. I hope the table comes with a good warranty, because it's going to fall apart. I was at the Kentucky Tournament and saw how they were built. 1 word for what I saw (cheap) Should be selling them out of Walmart with only a 5 day warranty for $99. Will have to see what happens to the table in a few months of play.
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Mr. Basso,
Can you identify yourself please?
Have we ever met?
You're observation of the Bonzini table is very astute.
The basic Bonzini model has not changed in 50 years. I can still order parts for tables built in the 1950's from Bonzini which is a pretty good indicator of their popularity and sturdy construction world-wide. And while players may never see a $10,000 or $20,000 tournamnet events from Bonzini U.S.A. we will continue to host our "Zero" profit events that support local charities in our Bonzini U.S.A. player regions.
I will be announcing details of our upcoming NC State Foosball Championships this weekend.
If you have never been to one of our events this will be a great opportunity to compete and meet an outstanding group of players that are not only accomplished players but contributors to the local community also.
Cannot comment on the Warrior.
I have seen similar components on other Asian made products at past tradeshows.
As far as Bonzini being describe as a slower style of play, I have to disargree.
It may apppear slower when played by players unfamiliar with the table characterisitcs.
But it is a pretty fast pace game when played by experienced players. Garlando is probably the fastest table-soccer game played by the general public.
These are definately some interesting times for the U.S. in the world of foos.
:DSupport the USTSF :D
(http://www.bonziniusa.com/GalleryPictures/Pictures/gallery%20pictures/gallery%20pictures%20page%207/2008%20img_3383%20BIG.jpg)
The AQBB Team at the 2008 VA State Foosball Championship
(http://www.bonziniusa.com/GalleryPictures/Pictures/gallery%20pictures/gallery%20pictures%20page%207/2008%20VA%20State%20047%20BIG.jpg)
Tournament room action
Alan Cribbs
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Re: Warrior, Best Ball in the Foosball World!? (next to the Bonzini ITSF-B)
Hi Alan
Mr. Basso here - We have never met but we have spoken. It's Todd (from Toronto). I recently purchased the ITSF Bonzini player figures for my table from you (and more recently paid the brokerage fees :-[). I also had a lot to do with a recent B90 purchase from you. My neighbour (Sharon) bought it - not that I had to convince her to get one. In fact she had pretty much free access to mine but she was so charmed by the Bonzini that she had to have one of her own. I think I live on the only street in Ontario with two Bonzinis!! - it's a start.
We did have a good discussion when we spoke on the new Bonzini ball and you mentioned there was some reluctance to embrace them in NC and area. Has that changed? I got some of these balls from you as well a while back and I am sold on them now. I think you do lose a little control over the yellow cork but the roll is true and they are virtually indestructible - in fact I think they get better/stickier as you use them. That is definitely an advantage over the Tornado, Dynamo and (I assume) the Warrior ball. From what I've heard (and it seems to make sense), is that as these balls are used, the "fuzz" gets worn off and the ball gets slick resulting in less control.
I agree with your comment on the slower style for Bonzini - i.e. it's only slow if you slow it down. Otherwise it can be incredibly fast. In fact my wife loves the gitoni style as played on the FABI tables that are ubiquitous in the Toronto area - super fast with generally little or no ball control. So occasionally we just play it that way (I am banned from using my pin). Playing that way actually develops a different part of your game.
Anyway - I could talk Bonzini all day but this post is getting a little long and slightly off topic. I hope to make it to one of your tourneys at some point and if you're ever up this way - drop me a line (or a post). I have little tourneys myself with friends every couple of months. I sucker them in with food, drinks and an interesting "theme" but they stay for the foos.
regards
(http://api.ning.com/files/G0PUOUl2vu2ez914Uodjotf5YLhMAj-l0pZDDcvqbDsRqrYl-qHEtAALpkjugRzuf7D3lH4ZX1g8qsx6AEdXBeuaqsbBXz8p/postervol22.jpg?width=388&height=600)
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.....
I'll agree with you that Tornado has to many "top" models. It seems to be changing almost yearly. I'm still not comfortable with Tornado tables, I learned to play on a Lehmacher and played a bit on P4P when I was an exchange student years ago. I've never faced anybody decent at foosball to really gauge an opinion on Tornado. Mostly from what I do know, is that I really like the speed... but I hate the ball, but to that token I love the sound the ball makes cracking the back of the goal. I don't really understand why they decided to flatten the table and use 3 goalies, but it's become somewhat of a standard in a lot of american tables for some reason.
Spoken like a true righthander!
There may be three goalkeeper players on the goal rod, but there is still only one player that can play in front of the goal. You can't make the fullbacks teleport to the goal area to dig out a ball, so they put the players there. Despite the whinings of many single goalplayer table players, it has really changed the game of doubles. Back and forward dribbling and control of the ball in either goal corner is much easier, passing options to the forward are increased, and backslap shots & passes from the 2bar to the Gbar forward are possible, compared to the single Gplayer. It makes the game more complete with passes and shots able to come from the corners.
Three(3) bar Goalkeeper rods are definitely closer to soccer than single Gplayer tables, and I myself, personally, have never seen a soccer field with ramps at the corners and no players allowed on the ramps. I know a lot of hockey and field hockey players also like foosball for similar miniature characteristics, and they've never seen hockey or court rinks with ramps even in the curved/rounded corners. Do you have soccer or field hockey fields or hockey rinks with these ramps where you hail from (originally) ?? :) Think of real soccer without all the corner kicks! Pretty exciting then, huh?
The single Gplayer tables, including the new Warrior (2003 version was a 3player Gbar) are kind of a sad reversal for all the goalkeepers, because they remove all the shotmaking and playmaking options from the G3 and G1, making a goalkeeper much more defensive and forcing him/her to concentrate on the right handed characteristics of the 2bar. Tornado liberated the play from the goal area, but it seems it is trying to cripple it again with their 1 Gplayer option for after Sept 1st. It's the usual punishment & discrimination against all left handers and ambidextrous players, typical in this right handed world. But hey, it is what it is.
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That is definitely an advantage over the Tornado, Dynamo and (I assume) the Warrior ball. From what I've heard (and it seems to make sense), is that as these balls are used, the "fuzz" gets worn off and the ball gets slick resulting in less control.
Tornado balls lose most of their grip after a few matches, whereas the Warrior ball kept its grippiness throughout KY State. I'm sure there's a point where the Warrior ball's control diminishes, but it's much longer than the Tornado's.
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just a thought but could the heavyer rods play into why on warrior
it was easyer to catch passes
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............. and I myself, personally, have never seen a soccer field with ramps at the corners and no players allowed on the ramps. I know a lot of hockey and field hockey players also like foosball for similar miniature characteristics, and they've never seen hockey or court rinks with ramps even in the curved/rounded corners. Do you have soccer or field hockey fields or hockey rinks with these ramps where you hail from (originally) ?? :) Think of real soccer without all the corner kicks! Pretty exciting then, huh?..........
Not the best equipment to go into battle with there......
As I've never seen a soccer field or hockey rink with players that have rods sticking thru them, keeping them from going to the corner to get the ball or puck either.
And I'd bet that neither has anyone else for that mater.
So....................KABOOM!!!! Lol!!
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Todd from Toronto,
Great poster BTW.
Know where I can get one?
I hope you get to make it to one of our events ssoon. Sharon was a pleasure to meet at the NC Open this year.
I hope she is enjoying her table also.
I do remember talking with you briefly and as you can tell I'm pretty excited about the things we're doing in the world of foosball with Bonzini U.S.A even after 34 years of playing.
Stay in touch and thanks for helping develop Bonzini play in your area.
Alan
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............. and I myself, personally, have never seen a soccer field with ramps at the corners and no players allowed on the ramps. I know a lot of hockey and field hockey players also like foosball for similar miniature characteristics, and they've never seen hockey or court rinks with ramps even in the curved/rounded corners. Do you have soccer or field hockey fields or hockey rinks with these ramps where you hail from (originally) ?? :) Think of real soccer without all the corner kicks! Pretty exciting then, huh?..........
Not the best equipment to go into battle with there......
As I've never seen a soccer field or hockey rink with players that have rods sticking thru them, keeping them from going to the corner to get the ball or puck either.
And I'd bet that neither has anyone else for that mater.
So....................KABOOM!!!! Lol!!
Excuse mO1 ?? Yo! yo! yo! Carlito.... Google "Human Foosball"... the German and English and African results should illuminate you... With pictures too! It's gotta be all that corn in Iowa :D.
Is this Chuck? or Carlos? So how much are we betting? Euro's? Yuan's? Pesetas? Kronen? Whatever you want....
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To This Week in Foosball,
Here's a quick link:
http://www.google.com/search?l=en&q=human+foosball&btnG=Google+Search
How about you put the link on your site? ;D
And although you did "Kabammm" yourself, I still think you guys are awesome doing what you do.
You probably slave away righteously to put out your weekly, but hey, you all should go out more often... Y'know, smell the roses? 8)
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To This Week in Foosball,
Here's a quick link:
http://www.google.com/search?l=en&q=human+foosball&btnG=Google+Search
How about you put the link on your site? ;D
And although you did "Kabammm" yourself, I still think you guys are awesome doing what you do.
You probably slave away righteously to put out your weekly, but hey, you all should go out more often... Y'know, smell the roses? 8)
LOL!!.............My Bad. :-)
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especially Bonzini... I mean it looks like a toy.
Bonzini ain't no toy. It's one of the more durable tables you'll find anywhere. It sells for about $600 more than the top of the line Tornado. It hasn't changed in over 30 years. You might not like the style of play, but the quality is there.
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especially Bonzini... I mean it looks like a toy.
Bonzini ain't no toy. It's one of the more durable tables you'll find anywhere. It sells for about $600 more than the top of the line Tornado. It hasn't changed in over 30 years. You might not like the style of play, but the quality is there.
I already directed an apology in a previous post. It was meant mostly as a reference to the aesthetics of the table, not the quality, and also as a reference that tables can be made incredibly different, and that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.
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especially Bonzini... I mean it looks like a toy.
Bonzini ain't no toy. It's one of the more durable tables you'll find anywhere. It sells for about $600 more than the top of the line Tornado. It hasn't changed in over 30 years. You might not like the style of play, but the quality is there.
What I'm wondering is that with the dominance that Rico has over all FIFA tables, why I don't hear or read about him coming over to Bonzini tournaments and flexing more Belgian muscle. Are there lots of Bonzini vids on YouTube or other places showing him playing this table? I see a ton of Garlando, Leonhard, Lehmacher tables with Rico, but I've still got to see where he comes over to lord it all on NC and other French-style players.. What gives?
Is he under contract with Valley or something? Wouldn't Alan Cribbs or Bruce Nardoci be overjoyed to have him come and validate their tournaments? Why is it Billy Pappas and other Tornado players that seem to do well on Euro trips? Is it because they're the only ones able to go?
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so far this year rico has won open singles 4 tournaments on bonzini, 3 on tecball, 1 on garlando, and 1 on tornado. there is a good inside foos on youtube of rico playing an exhibition on bonzini, if you youtube his last name it is the first result... billy papas i havn't seen play, but i would guess the only chance he has of beating rico is on tornado. here is a link to fredrico's stats... http://www.table-soccer.org/rankings/players.php?rankingCompetitionType=SINGLE_OPEN&numlic=05600037
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speaking of that video, thanks to jim for posting some of those on youtube, i didn't see the point of buying any inside foos dvd's until seeing the quality of production online. i'm gonna be all over some of those dvd's now.
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so far this year rico has won open singles 4 tournaments on bonzini, 3 on tecball, 1 on garlando, and 1 on tornado. there is a good inside foos on youtube of rico playing an exhibition on bonzini, if you youtube his last name it is the first result... billy papas i havn't seen play, but i would guess the only chance he has of beating rico is on tornado. here is a link to fredrico's stats... http://www.table-soccer.org/rankings/players.php?rankingCompetitionType=SINGLE_OPEN&numlic=05600037
Thanks Will! I enjoy the music and promo-style Bonzini vids that I see, but those with Rico in it will definitely be much better. I also wonder if you know if the ITSF's president Farid is involved with Bonzini and how much?
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especially Bonzini... I mean it looks like a toy.
Bonzini ain't no toy. It's one of the more durable tables you'll find anywhere. It sells for about $600 more than the top of the line Tornado. It hasn't changed in over 30 years. You might not like the style of play, but the quality is there.
What I'm wondering is that with the dominance that Rico has over all FIFA tables, why I don't hear or read about him coming over to Bonzini tournaments and flexing more Belgian muscle. Are there lots of Bonzini vids on YouTube or other places showing him playing this table? I see a ton of Garlando, Leonhard, Lehmacher tables with Rico, but I've still got to see where he comes over to lord it all on NC and other French-style players.. What gives?
Is he under contract with Valley or something? Wouldn't Alan Cribbs or Bruce Nardoci be overjoyed to have him come and validate their tournaments? Why is it Billy Pappas and other Tornado players that seem to do well on Euro trips? Is it because they're the only ones able to go?
Moola, green, cashola, payday, tender,........ Rico plays the Majors here because it is profitable for him to do so. Same as Billy, its what Billy does for a living. Just as Alan said, they don't have Mega buck tourneys, if they did, you would see Rico, Todd, Billy, Gummy, Tom, and maybe even me!
What's up Alan/Coach?.
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I love that this Warrior thread had morphed into a Bonzini thread!!!
See what you started Syronis.
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the thread was about balls/control - ball type and table control are so closely related that it is natural to talk about tables in general and how much control they each have and you can't talk about control without talking about Bonzini since it has as much or perhaps the most control of any of the main tables
if you made a "control" scale (stickiness), where would the tables fall? All right, here is my take on it but I am totally guessing since I haven't played on some of these tables and those I have, Garlando and Bonzini, have been so long ago I don't remember....but you get the idea
no control--------------------------medium control----------------------maximum control
0-------10-------20--------30-------40-------50-------60-------70-------80-------90-------100
Tornado (current) 45-55
Roberto Sport 75-85
TechBall 75-85
Garlando 80-90
Eurosoccer 80-90
Bonzini*85-95
Tornado Revised 50-60
Warrior 75-85
TS Green/Blue Top 65-70
TS Brown Top 75-85
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In my opinion the Eurosoccer is about 80-90 control and the new Roberto is the same as the Tecball, further more has the New Leonhart and the Lehmacher P4P the same control and I think it's 75 points.
Nice diagram BB. :)
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I love the diagram too BB. I realize the thread started out as a ball topic - but as so often is the case, the thread weaves in, away, around and off topic. So...to stay on topic--
Does "Tornado Revised" mean "Tornado Future"?
I don't have much experience on most of these - or at least the newer versions of most of these tables other than Bonzini and, to a small extent, Tornado so I can't honestly comment. I did hear though that Jupiter was even stickier than Bonzini.
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only a handful of people on here would have played on all of these, ICE, Brad, Alan, and ?
Jupiter sure does have a ton of control, see the video below...also, a stopped ball pass i okay...gosh, I am glad we don't have that rule
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bed9y7wL8sc
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Derailing the thread was not my intention, but I'm glad it sparked what seems to be a good conversation/debate.
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only a handful of people on here would have played on all of these, ICE, Brad, Alan, and ?
Jupiter sure does have a ton of control, see the video below...also, a stopped ball pass i okay...gosh, I am glad we don't have that rule
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bed9y7wL8sc
I play sometimes on the Jupiter and it is really sticky, especially when it's a dirty ball (most of the time it is) you have to adjust your shot completely and about that rule BB you're wright.....It really sucks!!!
It's even so sticky that a pull shot on the table is almost impossible because the ball get stuck most of the time. Now I think about it, I give control 90-95 and a lot is because of the ball ( probably 70% of the control that you have)
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Derailing the thread was not my intention, but I'm glad it sparked what seems to be a good conversation/debate.
No shame there, Nate! I think everyone realizes that ones's balls, and the control of them, are of vital importance in both practice and competitive play. They're probably the most immediate game-altering feature on any table used!
Controlling one's balls is probably of the ultimate importance or the single most major factor in playability! I have never heard of any player that didn't have complete control of his balls that eventually had any great success.
So this discussion on controlling one's balls is quite relevant. Like life, like pinball, like a lot of things, in foosball ... you either score points, or you lose your balls!
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Who is Snake shot blows?
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Who is Snake shot blows?
Alan,
I'm not sure if SSBlows is a Tornado purist, or he/she is just trying to bait Bonzini players into a flamewar. Obviously continental, perhaps an old school diehard.
I'm pretty sure he/she knows that Bonzini's are more expensive than the premium Tornados, so it must be all flamebait. Saw the same stuff that Old Meister and BBTuna had to deal with on other threads.
Or he/she could be just pulling you and other Bonzini players' chains in low humor. Trying to get a rise from y'all. That swipe against Bruce, "super novice Narcodi", with the obvious misspelling of Nardoci DID KNOCK ME OFF MY EASYCHAIR, rolling till I hit the fridge, however, I will have to admit.
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I'm really out of the loop when it comes to forum names.
Not too many Bonzini players, or Bonzini U.S.A. players get into the flaming game.
Everyone has an opinion and I pretty much respect that.
I've just return from vacation and starting to get caught up answering table order and tournament information.
You know, our approach to organized foosball tournament events is a little different. I definately have no goals of making it the most popular table in the U.S. We have a niche market with a great player base that enjoying coming together every few months and compete.
Foozkillah, have we ever met?
Alan
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....Foozkillah, have we ever met?
Alan
I'm Hawaiian' Flyin' Brian, one of the South Florida players.
Dunno if you've been to as many Tornado events as Bruce, but, no I don't think we ever met and talked, except on line, perhaps.
Charles Mac and Qbert or Randy Hicok can certainly describe me. And Deron Bone, too.
Wish we had more of a Bonzini presence in South Florida, but Jacksonville is the closest, I believe. I played lots of Leonhard and Kicker in the Low Countries in Junior high, so I am completely familiar with oldschool Euro play. And I'm one of those who actually would rather that the Tornado, Bonzini, Leonhard or Lehmacher tables to look even more like toys, like those fancy Wurlitzer jukeboxes, real showpieces. Attracts the newbies and kids better, and you can have a collectible piece of art, to boot. And I still have my Kicker tournament handles somewhere around here or in my storage unit.
I ran the weekly Lost Weekends $100 guaranteed no entry-fee tournaments & regular $500 or better no-entry fee events for almost 5 years, '98 to '02 in West Palm Beach, and further south in South Beach, Miami. My sponsors were Coors Silver Bullet, Newcastle United (owner of the Premier league team AND the no. 1 ale in the world by volume), Closer Magazine, and Grolsch Lager. Tornado's and Striker's were what was available, of course, but Rene Pierre's and Euro tables would have done fabulously, with the Latin players' familiarity with them.
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I just got back from Kauai this past Friday.
I wish I could do more events in Florida. There is definately some interest.
I was in Fernandina Beach early this year and thought that would be a great tournament travel spot for our Bonzini followers.
Maybe someday.
The Bonzini retails for $2395.00 but if the Euro and USD were equal we could sell them for around $1800.00. We have been lucky to survive for the past 10 years with fuel charges and Euro differiential.
Does Lloyd Hilbrun or Kenny Bixgoren still play? They came to a couple of events in Orange Park a few years back. Really super guys fron South Florida along with Jim Raymond out of Orlando.
Hopefully I'll be able to get out next year to some Tornado events.
Catch you on down the road.
AC
I'll probably see Randy in a few weeks in Wilmington.
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Any of these players still around ?
* Mike Cody
* Tom May
* Gary Gold
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I played on a Bonzini table once in the 70's. I remember the cork ball. At first it was,"You got to be kidding me!" but then I realized how much trickery and "stuff" could be used on a table like that. It was a real kick to play. Someone who was a Tornado purist wouldn't stand much of a chance on a Bonzini against someone who was an accomplished Bonzini player. Of course the same could be true the other way around. Which leads us to the truth, each table has it's own play. I like the middle, BRING BACK TOURNAMENT SOCCER!
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Tuna. Your scale has a flaw. For every table there are standards at which everyone is measured by. A pro will be 90% on their home table no matter what it is. Think about it, how many passes does Spree miss? Our have you ever witnessed Archer catching a loose ball? Tornado has as much or more control than any of the others. You just have to be blessed with the talent to use it.
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Ed,
the scale is considering all levels of players and any comparrisons otherwise would assume "all things being equal"
Fred is sick on Tornado and shows you what is possible but he is even more sick on the other tables (hard to believer but all a person needs to do is watch a little video of him on Jupiter or Bonzini and you can see that he actually has more control on those tables)
besides you are just talking about what is ultimately "possible" on a table but I would hardly use Tony or Fred or Billy for that matter as examples because to get to that level means you are one of the top 2-3 best ball control players in the WORLD and maybe of ALL TIME...literally 99% of the people will never reach that level
also, my scale was based on "stickiness" and there can be no doubt in anyone's mind, even a very casual player, that Bonzini with cork balls has a TON more "stickiness" (control if you will) than does Tornado with its current red ball (being changed as we speak)
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I just got back from Kauai this past Friday.
Ohhh the withdrawal pain!!! :D I should know, its my hometown.
Did you go check out the cliffs & rocks and our queen's place at the REAL NORTH SHORE of HAWAII? Yeah, but my clan has two houses there... hehehehehehe. 8)
I wish I could do more events in Florida. There is definately some interest.
I was in Fernandina Beach early this year and thought that would be a great tournament travel spot for our Bonzini followers.
Maybe someday.
The Bonzini retails for $2395.00 but if the Euro and USD were equal we could sell them for around $1800.00. We have been lucky to survive for the past 10 years with fuel charges and Euro differiential.
That's perfectly in keeping with your ultimate goals NOT being the dominant table in North America, but a strong, viable, and dedicated group. Exchange or "vig" rates are cyclical and should change. Also, all these "sticky" ball control changes for both Tornado and Warrior should make even more players open-minded to zee Fronch style of zee pleyy. :-\
Does Lloyd Hilbrun or Kenny Bixgoren still play? They came to a couple of events in Orange Park a few years back. Really super guys fron South Florida along with Jim Raymond out of Orlando.
Hopefully I'll be able to get out next year to some Tornado events.
Catch you on down the road. AC
Atty Lloyd Heilbrunn, started fading from the local South Florida picture after 2003. He showed up occasionally, but it's been sporadic. As the tournament venues migrated south the past 4-5 years (his being from Northern Palm Beach County) his presence has waned. He might make as comeback as there are now four venues again, including Central Palm Beach County, in West Palm Beach.
Kenny Bixgorin, super goalie Rookie worlds titlist (9x ?) with Shane Ledford, had a bad Achilles Tendon problem and although he dragged it out in much pain up till about spring of 07, had to quit, at least until his foot gets much better. He might come back one of these days, of course.
I'll probably see Randy in a few weeks in Wilmington.
Tell Randy, I hatehatehatehatehatehate his hopping quickset snakes from either side of the big dot. But I'll get him! I asked Deron how to stop that ****** ! Over a year past, but I remember having to play him after having to lose to dingdong Berndt from MaryIsAHoLand after waking up .... That hurt. He still cracked me up, though...
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Any of these players still around ?
* Mike Cody
* Tom May
* Gary Gold
WG,
Pro Master Mike Cody spends most of the year touring with his twin sons, Dalton & Dakota, on the BMX tour. They are #3/#4 in their southern league, and potential star rookies for the X Games, etc, next year. The months they're not on tour, Mike helps manage the Brass Ring Pub West, in Royal Palm Beach. He also works with his neighbor doing master woodwork, which has become his interest.
Pro Master Tommy May moved to Orlando several years ago and now plays at Jim Raymund's weekly locals, at least since last I saw him several months ago. We remember him and his great late brother, Butch, of course, from the Whirly Ball days of foos in the late 80's.
Pro Gary Gold was going regularly from also northern Palm Beach County down to Boca Raton once a month for the BYP's, with regular partner Dave Abrams, at least until about 3 months ago, but has stopped going to the tourneys for a while now.
So how do you know these guyzzz, Wounded G?
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Foozkillah,
I used to play Foos with these guys in the 80's also with Butch (RIP). I lived in West Palm. Also used to go to the Tampa tournaments run by Ron Craig ( I think he was partners with Jeep promoting Pop-A-Shot or some other coin op deal?) the Whirly Ball days were cool. I'm not in FLorida anymore. Moved to CA.
I haven't seen Dave Abrams in many many years... didn't know he still played. The last time I saw Tom May was at Wolds in Dallas 1990 or 1991
Who are you ( foozkillah) ?
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WG,
You probably know me... I first started coming down to South Florida in the mid 80's, coz my folks had a timeshare down by SW 72nd - Horizon Towers West, near the old Bally's and the State Fairgrounds. That's where I met good buddies Bill Bonson, Greg Reynolds, and Greg Chen (RIP) at Keg West and the first English Pub. Tony Matani, Danny Williams and Scott Rogers were still there, too. Danny's from Orlando now, along with Tommy May, while Scott's near Plant City I think. Tony Matani and Jim Dumas and I just saw Scott play at the Orlando 2000 this past weekend. Tony hadn't seen Scott from the old championship team 20+ years ago! I won SP dubs with Brian Costello and 9th in Open .. lost to the Yore Brothers.. third game.. Danny Williams couldn't go, coz of his new girlfriend.
Moved down (with a blond neurotic Gap model who was adopted, of course) in 89 and never really left. Met Cody and Gary Gold and Tommy May and Becky Callister (remarried twice, living in Lexington area, KY) and Chris Jule and Dave Abrams, the Miller Brothers, the Delcoro brothers, Kenny Bixgorin, Phil Izo, Chris Thomas, Richie Janis, Rick Fell and Starman and Green (both are in Tampa)at the Cross County Mall tournaments run by Raoul (Midnight Auto) and Butch. I was shocked to see Nevois(from PCH) and Thor Donovan (from Dante's in Iowa) when I started going to Sine's and Rudy's in Tampa with these guys.
I'm Hawaiian Flyin' Foozkillah Brian U. Who're you? You in Cali with my buddies Nagy and Furci ? Or are you near SD with Juwani, the Stach clan and those Indian pullkickers?? I lived in Glendale, playing at Charles Billiards locally there, of course, and at the Pitcher House on PCH.. some time at Rancho Cucamonga. Half my old high school buddies from the islands are spread between Solana Beach (SD) through upper Marin Cty and Seattle. All over Cali. And my uncle ran Wavers on Kalakua avenue and at Nimitz Ave back in the Jurassic foos era.
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Brian Uytiepo FL 8)
http://foosworld.com/public/main/playerProfile.aspx?id=6DE954A773A247DA8D01226947897054
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Brian Uytiepo FL 8)
http://foosworld.com/public/main/playerProfile.aspx?id=6DE954A773A247DA8D01226947897054
Very shlick BBT,
So who would Wounded Goose be, then? ;)
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FoozKillah< I knew Becky Collister also. I left Florida back in 1986. I know 90% of your buddies from Glendale CA. I live in Lake Mathews CA. (near Perris, Temecula) Ask them, "Who the Weasel is"?
I haven't touched the table since 1999. I had two broken wrists back to back in 2000 and 2001, then a knee injury and broken ankle in 2002, a fractured arm and fractured wrist between 2003-2004. Then in 2006 I crushed two disks and busted a vertabrae in my lower back and had to have spine surgery . So I fell out of the sport for a while. I guess Ken Oda is running most of the So. Cal. tourneys around here. I will have to look him up when I want to hit a local tournament one of these days.
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WG,
Got your message... Hope you come back soon! Back to the future with Dynamo-like or TS-like balls and single goalie bars and control player feet.
From your injuries, you must have been a chess player! ::)
So you must know uberref Arthur, who also hails from near Hatboro, PA, near the Philly foosers.
Jeez... I feel old.
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Damn.... what did you do to get all those injuries?
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Riding Motorcycles and Quads. I've had other quads hit me and been run into by a dune buggy, plus I've crashed on my own a few times jumping on hard pack.
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Riding Motorcycles and Quads. I've had other quads hit me and been run into by a dune buggy, plus I've crashed on my own a few times jumping on hard pack.
You sound like Glenn Burgess, who was more of a speedfreak on paved parts like Cody and Green (firewall behind their accelerators were indented permanently each road trip to Tampa). He's with 4-5 kids now, in B*mF*ck, Idaho or Dakota, although I still see his dad down here. I also know the PhillyFoos.com foosers, having lived and been back & forth in that area over 12+ years .. this was before SoFlo, and those guys get into Cykes and Quads, too, only they add basejumping at the end of the trip up the mountains. One of them, Ronnie Kemp (basejumped the Wachovia Center when it opened in Philly) is also now down here, playing with us.. These guyz, Chain, Dovi, Sluggo (check their pics on PhillyFoos.com) are certifiable.
Yeah, we would probably get along just fine, WG, in fact, we probably did!
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Damn.... what did you do to get all those injuries?
Riding Motorcycles and Quads. I've had other quads hit me and been run into by a dune buggy, plus I've crashed on my own a few times jumping on hard pack.
It was either that, or always picking up the wrong girl with the strange tatoos at that bar.
;D
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FZKILLA <
Glen Burgess ? !! I haven't seen him in 22 years... he wanted to be a stunt car driver.
Does Becky go to the worlds? Are you going this year?
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this has gone off topic a bit, can you all start a new thread or communicate by messages or email or exchange phone numbers and reminisce that way?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg
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Most of us here probably really appreciate tuna's posts, don't know why you have to be a jackass to everybody SSB.
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That's fine then, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination crying about it. I just feel like every post I've read of yours is very condescending or flat out insulting. I didn't know if you're on this board to harass people or to actually talk foosball.
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dear blow,
i think you are trying to have fun and you come on strong, sarcastic, and a bit abbrasive...it doesn't bother me personally, I think you are just having fun and don't mean any harm, but I want to make it clear, I am not responding to you to see what "Bozos" jumps in
I do not consider anyone on this board a "Bozos" and it isn't as if you and I are the parents and the children are observing from the outside and occasionally making a lame uniformed attempt at entering into the adults conversation
again, I don't mind sparing with you, I even enjoy a little of it, but you have started off strong and a little controversial and it might be worth listening to the feedback of others because they are telling you how you make them feel
with that said, I assume by your posts that you are a bitter old fart trying to remember when the pull was king and you are further frustrated at all those stinking illegal spinners out there...your precious game has gone to a bunch of limp-wristers and you are lashing out in the only way you can ;)...so sad :( :D :P
The BIG Tuna 8)