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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: Daniel on December 18, 2008, 11:19:49 AM
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Official tables and balls at World Cup
Some new features
Tornado
The Valley-Dynamo company has released a new model of its Tornado Competition table, which they had been working on for a few months, taking into account comments and suggestions made by players who tried the new table in the different events where it was available.
This one-man goalie table is the one that will be used at the WCup/WCh.
Valley-Dynamo has also released a new competition ball which comes in a dark red colour.
To purchase balls, contact the Valley-Dynamo company.
Garlando
The Garlando company has also created a new ball which was tested by players in several federations and gathered overall satisfaction.
This new ball, called "SpeedPlay" and bearing the ITSF logo, will be used at the WCup/WCh.
To purchase balls, contact the Garlando company.
Roberto Sport, Bonzini and Tecball
The existing Roberto Sport’s "Adrenaline" and Bonzini's new version of its "ITSF B90" tables, which were finalized over the past year, will be used at the WCup/WCh, as well as Tecball's "Tournament Pro Soccer".
No change of balls for these 3 tables, except that the Roberto Sport ball now bears the ITSF logo.
To purchase balls, contact the Roberto Sport, Bonzini and Tecball companies directly.
Does anyone know if we are going to use these ball on the US events and when we can buy.
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I have already ordered some directly from Valley, I am not sure if they will be used for the US events, but if they are planning on keeping things even remotely consistent then I would guess they will continue to use this ball.
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Why did Tornado switch to a 1 man goalie?
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Why did Tornado switch to a 1 man goalie?
From the discussions on FBB between US players and certain USTSF officials and promoters "in the know" , it seems that the European players who dominate ITSF events have always had distaste for table soccer tables that don't feature 11 vs 11 men. And I believe Tornado-ValleyD responded in the effort to possibly sell more tables worldwide. AND keep the ITSF from looking more closely at the Warrior at the same time.
All this "jumping how high?", despite the Tornado's 3player goal rod already having been ITSF approved for the past several years, and the fact that I've never seen a real soccer field with ramps at the corners, which would kinda play havoc on corner kicks. Neither have I ever seen half-moon, ultra-low, or non-rectangular shaped goal openings on actual soccer fields, as some of the other ITSF tables have always exhibited. Tornado has already released the 1-man goal conversion kits in Texas, Arlington specifically, for demonstration. And the original Tornado's 20 years ago did have ramps with 1-player goal rods.
Part of the reliability and durability of those new rampless 3-player goal 1989 Tornados back then was getting around more complicated play fields and how they couldn't get ramps that wouldn't eventually break. As a left-handed goalkeeper, I will miss the extremely deceptive backslap instant shooting and passing, as well as the ability to settle down the ball near either wall, away from the goal area. But I had no problems with TS's and Dynamo's, so it won't matter that much. It might affect those weaned over the past two decades on the G3 and G1 players, but who cares about US foosball, right? Not Tornado... they've had a rep of ignoring US players (which could be justified, seeing the loss of support and growth in the US) and jump at most ITSF(French and Euro) suggestions in order to increase world sales.
And you can't really blame Tornado. They now have a real competitor in Warrior for market share, and Tornado has to fight off the more ball-control Warrior with a 1-player goal rod. Read: if Tornado won't jump, the ITSF could go Warrior's way, not just homologating or approving both for ITSF play. Euro and other international players would definitely adjust so much faster to the Warrior, and Tornado knows that very well.
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fk
you know i love ya but it isn't a debate about if 1 man is better than 3...it is a debate about who controls our foosball, if players get a say, and how and when players find out about changes
people can argue for a lifetime on which is better - I don't care, I want a say and I don't want it sprung on our own players 2 weeks before international worlds so that the US players will see the new one man table, their very own previously chosen "home" table, the first time the day they step into the room for what is billed as THE World Championship...sucks, sucks, sucks
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fk you know i love ya but it isn't a debate about if 1 man is better than 3...it is a debate about who controls our foosball, if players get a say, and how and when players find out about changes
people can argue for a lifetime on which is better - I don't care, I want a say and I don't want it sprung on our own players 2 weeks before international worlds so that the US players will see the new one man table, their very own previously chosen "home" table, the first time the day they step into the room for what is billed as THE World Championship...sucks, sucks, sucks
Point taken, BBT! I'm saying that it's pretty much over.... too little too late. To blame the USTSF, which I believe are there because US players (or was it Tornado selection? A combination?) voted them in, or more likely, because too many US players declined to have a say in selection (sounds like a cat burglary), has repeatedly shown how it will act and in whose interest. And yes, US players should have a decent say. Especially in any World Cup or World Championships.
FEAR and MONEY=GREED. 'Splains ebbiteng, yuh.yuh.yuh....
Blame Tornado? They're no worse than a typical US corporation with profit and growth maximizing as its driving core values. And they're nowhere even near how evil many US corporations that have taken advantage of, scammed, hoodwinked and virtually raped their US clientele, for over a century. Bear Stearns, AIG, Madoff, GM, Chrysler???
The trick is, are US Tornado players WILLING to VOTE together WITH THEIR MONEY to force Valley-D-Brunswick to listen and keep US foosball style and original 90's Tornado quality & reliability in force over here?
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The ITSF has been given a worse reputation than they deserve. I agree that it is not good that they have changed the table right now, I am going to France to play in the world cup and I wish that I had known earlier about these table changes. That said, I think they genuinely care about growing foosball as a whole equally as much as we do. I do not thing they are trying to alienate the US player base.
Remember, the ITSF forced probably even bigger changes to Garlando and Roberto Sport than to tornado. The playing surface and ball were changed, as well as the ramps on the sides of those tables. These changes are very similar to the changes they have made to tornado. Do you think other players in other countries are happy? probably not. These changes are helpful to the entire world wide player base so that people transitioning between one table to another table can do so with a little more ease. They aren't trying to turn the whole game into 1 table, but for growth there needs to be a certain amount of standardization. Only about as much as in tennis or golf, where certain things are always the same and other things can change. I think in the long run this is a step forward, yes it sucks right now, but does it really matter to me if the table has 2 outside men? no
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one thing to consider is to look at soccer. FIFA is the world governing body, much like the ITSF is for foosball. Under FIFA is a tier of governing bodies that control each continent. CONCACAF controls north america, UEFA is for europe, etc. I don't think foosball is big enough at this point to support groups like that, but it may well happen one day. Under those bodies are each nations governing association. the FA in england has been at war with FIFA and UEFA for a long time, in the 80's there was a HUGE problem caused when FIFA would not let any british teams compete in international competition. That is like the ITSF telling USA they arn't aloud to play in any ITSF sanctioned tournaments. What i'm saying is this, governing bodies often create problems for specific countries, or maybe every country, but it is imposible to keep everyone happy. They are working towards goals that I completly support, and are specifically outlined on there web site.
People talk about how they don't care about US foosball, you are right, they dont. they shouldn't. To fight for US foosball you need an association that does that for you, like the FA does for england in soccer, like the USASA in soccer for the usa. If one of the governing bodies of foosball in the USA formed a league and had a player base and web site as good as the ITSF then tornado would probably listen the USTSA or anyone else for that matter just as much. The USTSA could fight with the ITSF and represent its own point of view.
The ITSF is fighting for getting foosball into the olympics, raising the general publics awareness of foosball, having a world ranking system, having official tables with standards, and is trying to represent the worlds player base accurately.
If you love foosball why wouldn't you support those things, even if it means your home table gets changed right before the world cup.
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Will,
you said,
The ITSF is fighting for getting foosball into the olympics, raising the general publics awareness of foosball, having a world ranking system, having official tables with standards, and is trying to represent the worlds player base accurately.
If you love foosball why wouldn't you support those things, even if it means your home table gets changed right before the world cup.
I love foosball and those goals you mention are noble and I am in support of them in general and in the LONG run they should have a positive impact for foosball as a world game. What the ITSF has accomplished in a short time is remarkable and this shows outstanding leadership vision and execution.
My issues are two-fold. Your example with soccer is a good one especially considering the parallel to this game being table soccer however, American foosball, with its unique game, solid level table with balls that stay true-round, and its 30+ years of rules development, had its own identity, culture, and history looses its individuality within this autocratic organization which flies in the face of several important values.
American’s most unique characteristics have been taken away without the input of the PLAYERS of the United States. I believe in standards, I believe in International play, but at the same time, I believe in autonomy and sovereignty. These things do not have to be mutually exclusive. Look at the NBA and International basket ball for a perfect example of how these things can co-exist.
I hope that the USTSF had nothing to do with this last minute forced table change. But even if they did, the USTSF does NOT speak for the players of the US…they are NOT elected officials who have the overwhelming support of the US player base. What they are doing in the face of the ITSF’s takeover of foosball is noble and I appreciate their efforts but they are a by-product of the ITSF take-over. They are trying to act as a liaison to the ITSF and are trying to represent the US player base but they do not have the overwhelming support of US players.
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I think that you generally agree with me but maybe I came off sounding more negative than positive. I understand the “autonomy and sovereignty” that you are talking about, and I agree that this has been without the players. Your example with the NBA being different than international basketball is similar to the NHL being different from IIHF international hockey, different size of playing surfaces, different rules. In those two circumstances the sports are doing great, so I don’t think that it could be argued that having those rules different would be the limiting factor in the growth of foosball. The rules and table don’t have to be EXACTLY the same for tournaments in North America as they are in Europe. I still think that the standardization is good for the game globally, and in the long run if the table changes work out then maybe we here can adapt those changes, or just continue to play however we want here and abide by the rules in international competition.
If NBA and NHL players can adapt then I think foosball players can adapt.
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I am so sick of hearing about the ITSF "taking over" foosball in the US. It looks to me that whatever takeover occurred, the players are the ones that let it happen.
I came to the realization a long time ago and I've seen nothing to change my mind... Foosball players in the US are incapable of organizing themselves and are unwilling to allow someone to do it for them.
No one held guns to the heads of players and forced them to follow the ITSF lead. If the idea is so repulsive to rank-and-file players, why didn't everyone simply ignore it and continue to do things the "American Way"? I see no one organizing any group as an alternative to the USTSF. If their actions are running counter to the wishes of the foosball majority, why hasn't anyone else stepped up? If they did, would you volunteer your help? Too busy? How about a membership fee to an organization that would fund it's work? You don't trust them with your hard-earned dollars? So instead people do nothing and that vacuum is filled by something you may or may not like. But it will be filled.
There's your choice for an effective organizing effort. Step up, do the work and get it done or get out of the way and help fund someone else do the work. This tune is getting very tiresome
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I don't care what the goals of the ITSF are or how noble they are changing the table like this with a couple weeks to go is UNACCEPTABLE
the end does NOT justify the means...Tornado has known about this for a long time and they have been trying to get the players of the US to think they are working for them and that they care about them
allowing and/or aggreeing, to a change like this, which Tornado (and ITSF) had to plan far in advance, and not lettiing the US players know, not allowing a dialog with players to debate the merit, not giving the competing US players advance notice or a chance to adjust show me that all the stuff Tornado has been doing and continue to do are just window dressing
Tornado has made the changes they have made, this and others, to stay in bed with ITSF and to sell table in Europe...fine for them, good business, but don't sell out the US players in the process
I don't like this and I am not going to just roll over and take it...I don't have much but I have a voice and a wallet and I will use both
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Brad,
I agree in a sense, the players let it happen (sort of) and the US lacks strong leadership and organized meaningful player representation (for sure)...at the same time, this happened in backrooms and behind the scenes...the first time the general population heard of it it was a done deal
the players were in no way involved with this...this was a deal between Tornado and ITSF...some individual players were brought into the thing but again that was behind the scenes and without general player support
We are a leaderless impotent loosely associated group of gamers and it is this lack of leadership and player power which allowed this takeover – to me, this was reminiscent of a third world midnight coup
But, I don't want to and I don't have to just bend over and take it like a man and say "Thank you sir, may I have another"
That table change is WRONG WRONG WRONG on every level possible...I have stood back and watched this whole thing unfold over the last couple of years and I have NOT been antagonistic...I see the vision and respect the leadership prowess of Friad to do what he is doing and I don't want him to stop
But, I am not going to sit by while the US gets crapped on...if this is happening to other countries, then they should stand up and be heard too
I am saying the United States players and US foosball, needs its own identity, sovereignty, voice, and vision...this won't happen without real leadership but it is often through conflict, shared misery, and a collective spirit that good leadership is born or revealed
NOW is the time to stand and start to join with one voice and not slink into the back ground while the playground bully takes your skate board away
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I disagree on a couple points.
Tuna said the end does NOT justify the means...Tornado has known about this for a long time and they have been trying to get the players of the US to think they are working for them and that they care about them
1. I think the end does justify the means.
Picture in ten years, foosball is an international sport recognized well, in the olympics, people (including your mom, receptionist at work, and pet hampster) don't laugh every time you say you play foosball. The game is organized well and foosball is thriving...
Tuna... will you still complain that in 2008 the ITSF changed to single men goalies at an inappropriate time? Are you saying you won't buy tornado tables that have single men goalies?
and "Tornado has made the changes they have made, this and others, to stay in bed with ITSF and to sell table in Europe...fine for them, good business, but don't sell out the US players in the process
I don't like this and I am not going to just roll over and take it...I don't have much but I have a voice and a wallet and I will use both"
2. The ITSF in not doing this against the US. Considering that Garlando and Tornado have had changes made at the exact same time, not even taking into account the new Bonzini ball and the side strips being lowered on robertosport. Just the changes to Tornado and Garlando cause the same problem for 15 countries. there are 15 countries that play on one of those two tables, india, china, ireland, canada, usa, japan, south africa, the uk... these are just the tornado countries.. that is countries in europe, in asia, in north america, and in africa... how can you get upset that they didn't let the US players know, without getting upset at the way that they handled everything?
I am probably going to be effected more by this change than most people on these boards and I don't even care that much, because I believe that this is a step towards the right direction. I honestly believe that the ITSF is trying to keep everyone happpy, including the US.
I also honestly believe that if Tornado's quality control issue isn't resolved then the ITSF would put its foot down and Tornado would have to resolve these issues. I think even if the player base in the US supported the ITSF and emailed complaining about the table surface issues etc then the ITSF would put that pressure on valley dynamo. The table manufacturers won't listen to the players, but they do listen to the ITSF, we just need to see if the ITSF will listen to the players.
I know I have emailed the ITSF only one time, and they emailed me back with a thoughtful and deliberate response. That in itself is important to me.
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alright you addressed point 2 while i was typing it, i'm going to leave it there anyway because i feel there is some valuable info in it.
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We already got a bunch of the dark red balls. They are weird. Im pretty sure that they are not going to be standard fare for use in the US (according to Charles Macintosh).
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Will,
we are close, you make some good points...I acknowledge that the ITSF may have a positive impact on gobal foosball over enough years but I don't think 8 or 10 years is enough...the average person still thinks competive frisbee, skate boarding, and other smaller much more accepted "sports" and we won't see foosball in the Olympics in our life-time...even if we met every requirement, there are sports waiting much longer that deserve at least a trial before foosball
i am not saying they shouldn't keep working in that direction, it is a nobel cause, but I want to be realistic about what can be accomplished
if you are convinced that foosball will be universally accepted through their efforts in the not to distant future that I can see why it is tempting to embarce the "the end justifying the means"
however, I am not saying that the ITSF should stop their general direction, I am fine with that and even supportive
what I am NOT supportive of is giving up our own countries identify and giving up any say in the process
the players shouldn't be treated like little children by the big overpowering adult who knows better
we are, as a collective, mature men and women who have a vested interest in the direction the game takes
Fooskilla told about Bonzini players voting and NOT accepting the new ITSF foosball that they were told would be standard and they would not play with it....this is what I am talking about
the US is built a democratic way of doing things (principally) and in all our pro sports and in our government there is a balance of power
in sports it is basically a league, the player, and the sponsor/audience…but for our purposes is the Federation and the Table manufactures and there is no voice for the players
this is wrong, the players need a voice…I did not agree to join a dictatorship (well, I mean who does, he, he, but you know what I mean)
I say “NO!” because what they are doing has finally cleared it all up for me…this change in this manner, with this timing is WRONG, UNFAIR, and without PLAYER REPRESENTATION
I say “NO!” because the US game and players need a voice independent of the manufacture and the ITSF
I say “NO!” because the US should have full autonomy/sovereignty in its own foosball life…this means we have our own rules, culture, and goals and then work with ITSF when and how it suits us not when they demand it
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I think you should leave the rules out of your argument. I have not met a single person that wants to go back to the old rule book. Not one. Tom and Adrian did a wonderful job putting the international standard rules together and every American should be proud of their hard work.
1 man, 3 man who really gives a ***. The justification for a 3-man goalie are:
1st. It makes the game easier to learn for the beginner.
2nd. It reduces the cost of manufacturing.
3rd. It produces a higher quality cabinet.
Tornado has had a 1 man goalie table option for several years and no one, let me repeat that in bold NO ONE has every ordered one, not here or in Europe. Why, because the 3-man table is easier and more fun to play. PERIOD.
If the ITSF, which I am starting to think stands for (It's Farid's) wants a one man goalie then let them buy the 8 sitting in the warehouse. No one from the Equipment standards committee has posted that the change was requested by the membership. So if this is the product of the standards committee then I am ok with it.
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Ok Tuna. On all of those points I would say we agree. Like I said I know its wrong that they are changing stuff right before this tournament, it especially sucks for me. I just ordered the new ball Tuesday, so hopefully I get 1 week of practice in before I leave. As phil has said on the other board, and you said today, the players need a voice. Maybe there could be an association run by the players, for the players, much like we have in canada. It is VERY democratic, and the president(eric dunn) won’t do anything behind closed doors. He received an email from mary moore asking if he would fly down to try out the warrior. This was before the Kentucky state tournament that it was used at. Because 2 countries need to ask for a table to be made an official ITSF table according to regulations. She figured canada would be the easy choice to get a 2nd country to apply with. Eric posted the entire email thread between her and himself on the Canadian message boards. We are always filled in on what is happening with our association(TSAC) and we have a vote on who represents each area of our country. Then that person has a vote in TSAC. Could you guys emulate that?
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Ed,
the point about the rules isn't that they aren't any good, it is that we are no longer in control...we have to play by those rules if it is to be a sanctioned ITSF event...it was good leadership to help quell the uproar of the US players to have 2 of the most respected and best US rules people to head up writing the new standard
the point is that our rules were given away without the general population of players knowing and so not knowing they had no input to approve or even argue about the change...why? because Friad is smart enough to know the general player base would never approve
I am not going to argue about the quality of the current rule book, my point is we no longer have a rule book that we can manage and it was given/taken away without our consent
so next year, if the very few players who get to benefit from the international championship want to qualify they have to qualify at sanctioned ITSF events and the even can't be sanctioned if two things aren't present
1st the tourny has to have the international rules...no domestic option (slight wiggle room for now but eventually that will tighten)
2nd and this brings me to my second point regarding your post
they are using the new one man goalie table at the championships because it is the new approved ITSF table and the second thing needed for a tournament to be sanctioned is an approved ITSF table
this means that tournaments next year in the states that want to be sanctioned have to use the new "approved" table
seriously, can't everyone see where this is going
again, this isn't about the quality or merit of the rules or 1 man vs 3 man, it is about a voice, it is about a say, it is about the United States, and any other country who feels the same, having soverignty over its own game
the PLAYERS not the table manufacture
if the table manufacture wants to make changes to make the table more saleable in Europe that is fine, but don't give our game away in the process and force us to accept those changes without our player base having a voice
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Will,
I agree, the players need a players union/association but to have a voice several things need to happen
1st leadership needs to be found
2nd players have to unite
3rd players have to have some leverage, some power so if they take a stand, the powers that be, domestic or international, organization or table manufacture, will listen
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"they are using the new one man goalie table at the championships because it is the new approved ITSF table and the second thing needed for a tournament to be sanctioned is an approved ITSF table
this means that tournaments next year in the states that want to be sanctioned have to use the new "approved" table"
Apparently in all your in-depth research you missed the fact that each manufacturer of ITSF tables has more than one competition-approved model, depending on the level of tournament.
Give it a rest.
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then why Brad, would the ITSF MAKE Tornado use that competition table and not the other hmmmmm?
if you don't like it, don't read it
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then why Brad, would the ITSF MAKE Tornado use that competition table and not the other hmmmmm?
WTF are you talking about? I doubt they're being made to do anything. Your conclusion seems to be that because Tornado has produced a version for international competition... something that every other ITSF table manufacturer has done... it's assumed that this will be the standard tournament table used in every sanctioned event from now on. I'm fairly certain that's not going to be the case.
if you don't like it, don't read it
Nice comeback on that one. How about... If you don't like it, do something to change it.
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I dont like playing with marbles the new balls are prob better....that is what were taking about right?
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BBT, Brad,
I believe you guys are arguing over the wrong problem.
The real problem is that the international representatives to the ITSF are intimately connected to Table Manufacturers!! In fact they subsidize it, but then you have to live with the consequences!
We cannot have that! You can't blame the ITSF for trying to add, amend and improve standards, that's part of its agenda. And you cannot blame a manufacturer like Tornado or Bonzini or Garlando to simplify by incorporating ITSF standards into new manufacturing in ORDER TO STAY CERTIFIED!!! Multiple models yes, but it's their agenda and their own *sses on the line how much of each to build. Especially in this new world economic depression order.
The national organizations have to be representative of the players, NOT MANUFACTURERS. Oh yes, you can say that the reps are honest, and do their utmost. But the same problem keeps creeping up. ITSF mandates a rule change for the tables of play, the manufacturers automatically wish to implement them in good faith! The problem with single manufacturer support (ie money, time, travel) is they often have to standardize their offerings. And as with Bonzini and Tornado, that goes right up against players who have played and competed for sometimes decades WITH NO PROBLEMS on the older standard.
For an example, the American Bowling Congress is not tied to Brunswick or other manufacturer in its dealings with WBC or any other international or world bowling association. It's unthinkable! Brunswick can have its own amateur and pro leagues in as many countries, but no say in the liaison between national and international organizations. Formula 1 is another example! Any working, thriving international organization MUST BE MANUFACTER INDEPENDENT!
The solution is to have ONLY players & elected officials represent a country, and until that weird idiosyncracy of the ITSF and its member nations and organizations is removed, there WILL ALWAYS BE CONTROVERSY. In other words, players will have to be willing to pay DUES and FEES to a player org, which can in turn join all the other foos countries' orgs in creating and funding an internatioal org. YOU HASTA PAY!! Otherwise YOU LIVE WITH WHAT THE MFRS throw you as a bone. Get mad at the ITSF, but don't blame them for simply carrying out a normal agenda. Get mad at Brunswick, but the only way to make them change is with your pocketbook! And luckily, you now have the choice.... Players can move over (at least in percentage of time allocated) to Warrior or Bonzini. Tornado Promoters can demand more previous product, and can refuse equipment changes outright by refusing to order them.
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Brad,
yes, some of the other manufactures have more than one "approved" ITSF table but they aren't changing from one to the other per tournament...it is a sales gimmick so people who can't or won't spend the money on the actual competition model and feel they are getting just as good a table for less
but assuming you are right, riddle me this...why would a manufacture make an "International" model which they force all the current countries/players who have previously chosen the 3 man Tornado as their "home" table for THE biggest multi-table format event when all the players decided on your table when it was a 3 man table?
the logic is totally lost on me...you put your current dedicated players at a disadvantage on their own home model so you can sell tables to those who haven't chosen your table? aggravate your current base to get players you don't have? Why not just put out a news release saying you don’t care about your current players?
Also, if there is a multi-table event ever held in the US are they are going to use the International model or the domestic one? Based on your comments, it appears you assume it will be the “domestic” model?
Tornado could introduce an "International" "sanctioned" model at the tournament, bring 10 of them, for people to see and play on without forcing your current people to play on it...dumb, dumb, dumb
And why if there are two different “sanctioned” models isn’t it the USTSF and/or the Player(s) who choose which is their home model
I just don’t think it is as simple as you make it out
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Brad,
you said,
"How about... If you don't like it, do something to change it."
you don't like what I say and so you reply telling me, essentially, to shut up, except it, and move on
you do this because you don't like or don't agree with what I am saying...However, using your same logic, you should just accept me because that is the way I am
you don't stay silent because you don't like it, that is your right and by speaking your mind, you hope to influence me toward change
this then becomes you “doing” your part to stop the madness which is bbtuna
I the same as you, don't like what I am seeing and hearing and I like you also am speaking out in hopes of influencing people toward change
in the end, it may mean nothing, but at least I am giving my opinion and trying to stir the pot...
when you say, " do something to change it." I assume you mean more than talk…2 things
• talk is cheap but it is not meaningless and it carries potential risk and reward
• I may not be the person who steps forward and leads major change but maybe I am one of the voices which motivates the person who will eventually step up…
All that said, even if I had no noble intentions and all I did was preach, that is a basic American right, that is why I said to you, if you don’t like it, don’t read it…
you have seen enough and been close enough to all this to have a different perspective, a bit cynical and aloof from my seat but I respect that even if I don’t agree with you and/or I don’t want to join your point of view, you have a clear right to express your opinion
Brad, who knows, be careful what you wish for, what if I was the person? He, he, he.
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I say “NO!” because the US should have full autonomy/sovereignty in its own foosball life…this means we have our own rules, culture, and goals and then work with ITSF when and how it suits us not when they demand it
The ITSF may be a pain in the ass sometimes, but it's the only international foosball organisation we have. Given that the common goal is to get foosball recognized as a sport, constantly proclaiming national interests can only be detrimental to this common cause.
Don't ask what the ITSF can do for your country, ask yourself what your country can do for the ITSF!
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BG,
I have read your posts on both boards and we are not exactly on the same page. I am all for an International organization but I am not into world domination. I want growth but not at the expense of individuality, soverignty, or democracy.
I think France should have its own identify, they play Bonzini and it is its own unique game and should be made to be Tornado table and those players should not be "forced" into the American game. This is true for each country and table.
If other countries think the trade off of their soverignty is worth it then, that is up to them. I just don't think it is a good idea and I fail to see, so far after 2 years, the benefit to this country. I am not saying there is a benefit for other countries, I don't know and I am not going to comment on their situation without a lot more information.
However, I can comment on what this has done and not done for US foosball. I totally get the long term stated goals but after 2 years, I would expect to see some positive trickle down for US players. I don't expect the ITSF to have reached their goals by now and I see general progress in their work, overall, but nothing for the US. And further, it seems all the US has done is give up stuff that has a direct impact on our foosball culture and history.
For me at least, this isn't a US vs Euro or US vs France or US against the world. I will say it again, I am supportive of the ITSF goals except I don't think countries, ours in my case, should give up its own management of their own foosball and shouldn't be squeazed into conforming.
The ITSF doesn't believe in democracy and I do. I think their needs to be a voice for the players (US and other countries) and I don't believe in being told what is what AFTER the decision is made.
It really comes down to a difference in philosophy...democracy vs socialism or dictatorship.
I think countries can have their own soverignty and ITSF can still accomplish their goals, I think there can be an international set of rules and standards AND a country specific standard. These things in my opinion don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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The ITSF may be a pain in the ass sometimes, but it's the only international foosball organisation we have. Given that the common goal is to get foosball recognized as a sport, constantly proclaiming national interests can only be detrimental to this common cause.
Don't ask what the ITSF can do for your country, ask yourself what your country can do for the ITSF!
Any country or region proclaiming, protecting and maintaining its national interests in a sport or game have never EVER been detrimental to the common cause of that sport! That is the ludicrousness of believing that Farid Lounas knows what is best for any of the ITSF members!
Case in point: the French and Italians have great cause to be proud of their "red clay" tennis tour, which is a major part of the annual tour, including the ATP. There are no idiotic or moronic requests or plans from the local French & Italian federations or IOC to change over to any standardized surface to match an Olympic standard! Nor do they care what other federations or the Olympics use for rules, especially in deciding tied or even sets! The All-England club has their own rules for tiebreakers, as well! And so does the American tour.
There is no connection and no conflict! Each international player from any country has to adjust and adapt to whatever the rules & conditions are at each international event. AND THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT! Which is part of the challenge and the greatness of the game. The same goes for any Olympic sport! And all the players happily go home to their own national or regional tours without blinking an eye.
So do not use Olympic or international standardization as any justification. The ITSF wants its own game, for its own purposes. And those purposes are intimately connected to the major agendas of the manufacturers it certifies and approves for ITSF play. They want a standard table, with which they would try to dominate the world with and make a crapload of money. Nothing to do with anyone's aspirations to push or advance foosball. This is no different than Lehmacher or Garlando creating a world tour and working for dominant marketshare, trying to put THEIR table into the whole world. There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed. Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others.
Don't ask what the ITSF can do for foosball, ask how much money you can make for the ITSF!
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They aren't out trying to make money, think about this. If your goal was to make a lot of money, would you try to do that through foosball? There are many ways to make a lot of money, but this isn't the goal of either Farid or the ITSF. They care about promoting and growing the game. It is VERY different from a table manufacturer starting a tour to take over the world. If it was like that then they would own a table. Farid has no vested interest in promoting one table over another. I know they make bad decisions, as proven by the current tornado changes. I don't belive that this is a direct attack on the US, I also don't belive they are trying to ruin the heritage, or identity of US foosball. Also I believe(as you also do I think) that both the ITSF and the identity of US foosball can coexist. Just not at the same tournament.
Any country or region proclaiming, protecting and maintaining its national interests in a sport or game have never EVER been detrimental to the common cause of that sport!
This is partially true, but if it is done in the wrong way it is detrimental.
There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed. Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others
No offense, but this must be the most misjudged and deceptive statement I have ever read on this forum.
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Friad gets money to advance his agenda from these manufactures...he is already a successful business so this is a passion not an investment (supposedly)...this is a Non-profit org so Fri shouldn't be making money but
a part from that, Fri has an agenda...if it wasn't clear before, it has to be clear now...Fri has a vision for the way he thinks foosball ought to look, this call by him and him alone to change the Tor to 1 man goalie 2 weeks before the World Championship should clear that up in case anyone was on the fence
said with sarcastic tone which gets thicker and heavier with sarcasm with each word …
Oh, and since Fri is in control, Fri has the vision, and Fri has the support, then of course Fri has the perfect plan AND Fri has the right to unilaterally execute that plan
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As an addition to my last post, I would also be more than happy to support any other organization that's goals are to help foosball grow and prosper, if anyone started a corporation(which the itsf is not by the way) that ran a world cup, collected results from tournaments in every country, had a ranking system, etc then I would probably prefer that to the ITSF because I do not have any attachement to the itsf, i don't even really like the itsf, it is however better than any other alternative, so until I have something else to support, i will support the itsf.
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Will17,
What do you mean not make money with foosball? We mean make money with foosball tables! The founder of the Dynamo tables, Tournament Soccer, Bonzini, Lehmacher, and Leonhard ALL became solid viable corporations, and their founding members made tons and tons of money! The continuing changes to ALL tables shows how this warped and unneeded vision for international foosball is part of the agenda to go to one world table! The attraction, esteem, competitiveness, and even grandeur of the ALL the other world tours in tennis, golf, bowling, etc. ILLUSTRATE the need for DIVERSITY. This movement is corrupt and can only be profitable to the ITSF and its 5 selected manufacturing partners. Because they control the certifications and what events are sanctionable, they can one day own the whole market! Are you missing this? This is EVIL. ALL the chosen manufacturers know that they will be the only game in all towns if this happens! Sorry for all the other manufacturers that didn't wish to join this gang of organized monopolistic criminals! Nothing to do with advancing foosball at all!
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Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life? Want to select one golf course or tennis court & make that the absolute standard globally? That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world? Nothing is worth getting there. No global aspiration is worth that! This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?
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The ITSF needs to be disbanded & each country/region's player's orgs should create a new one to reflect the needs of all world players, WITHOUT ANY MANUFACTURER influence! Otherwise, all previous histories & traditions of all foosball countries will be melted down into a tasteless standard! The org needs open-minded wide parameters for certification like: minimum number of players on this table with these rules? Yes? OK. There should be many certs, just like Olympic certs for approved equipment from many mfrs are replete. It should not be an elitist members-only club, but an open organization for all to benefit from!
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In reference to :There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed. Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others
and
What do you mean not make money with foosball? We mean make money with foosball tables!
I was saying that the ITSF is not out to make money, the table manufacturers certainly are, and that is a good thing. However I do understand that it is monopolistic to not allow other manufacturers to make the same thing. It would maybe be ideal if they had a set of rules/guidelines that define what a foosball table is, and any tournament run on any of those tables could be officially recognized. It would then create other problems though, such as a country designing there own table to benefit themselves and not make the table accessible to other countries. I think the way it is being done is best, as long as there is room for change. If all the Federations representing countries that are using tornado currently decided that warrior (or anyone else) was making a better table at some point down the road the ITSF would have to change that table. I would be willing to bet that the ITSF would change from tornado to warrior if that was requested in that manor, however if the ITSF would not accept that change, I would at that point completely take your side. I think as long as the freedom for the 5 official tables to change is kept, I will be happy with that aspect of the ITSF.
By the way I also support the need for diversity in the tables, but I think that it has to be limited. If I made a Foosball table that was 6 feet tall it would be a very diverse table.. you can see where i'm going with that. Diversity is good, but it has to be controlled by someone... as I said before, if someone else will control that, and run tournaments, even in direct opposition to the ITSF, I would support that organization also.
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The ITSF doesn’t need to be dispanded.
Each country or region does need its own organization, as is accepted and recommended by the ITSF. There could also be a players association, as in many other sports. Manufacturers are being influence by the ITSF, not the other way around. None of the 5 official tables are telling the ITSF what to do, obviously.
I believe the best step for foosball would be for the ITSF to be made more diplomatic and open. If there was accurate representation of player bases (for every 100 players registered in a countries association that association gets 1 vote, or something along those lines) that decided on things like the changing of tornado to 1 man goalie it would leave us feeling at least informed. The ITSF couldn’t ignore the fact that everyone playing on tornado would not have voted on this change at this time, maybe the 1 man goalie would be preferred in the long run, but it would not have happened 2 weeks before what should be the biggest tournament of the year.
I understand there are problems with the ITSF. There is no better alternative. There isn’t even any alternative. How can we complain that someone is doing something wrong when they are the only one doing anything?
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Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life?
No, and also I own 3 types of foosball tables, only 1 of which is ITSF certified.
That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world? Nothing is worth getting there. No global aspiration is worth that! This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?
I don’t really see where you are going with this. but no I don’t support Hitler. Now that we got that out of the way…
Hitler did accomplish a lot, and Farid will too, and has already. As cetainly as hitlers goals were wrong, Farid is working towards positive goals, if he ever tries to make tornado become bonzini or the other way around then I would not support that. However, I do support the change of tornado to a 1 man goalie. The timing was bad, but the change is being made with the best interests in mind. He is trying to grow table soccer. It is hard to convince about 75% of the people in the world to play on tornado because of the extra men, alienating that many people is not good for foosball. however making those people not feel alienated is good for foosball. I actually like 3 men better. I think it puts more emphasis on the 5 bar and as billy said on the other board it makes it harder to put you 2 bar clearances off the back wall to your 3. Either way, I’m willing to accept change if it is done for the greater good.
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It would then create other problems though, such as a country designing there own table to benefit themselves and not make the table accessible to other countries.
How can that not be a fallacy? Look at the French and Italian Opens, then Wimbledon, then the US Open!!! You see the surface advantages for the regional players, which is a major major part of their mystique and challenge, but you have no problem recognizing them as valid ATP or international accredited tournaments!! Ok so for example, your players have the advantage for the Whatever Open, but our players will have the advantage too, in OUR Open! True world class players like Nadal and Federer, Tiger and the Kid, as well as foosball's own Rico put the lie to your perceived problem.
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How can that not be a fallacy? Look at the French and Italian Opens, then Wimbledon, then the US Open!!! You see the surface advantages for the regional players, which is a major major part of their mystique and challenge, but you have no problem recognizing them as valid ATP or international accredited tournaments!! Ok so for example, your players have the advantage for the Whatever Open, but our players will have the advantage too, in OUR Open! True world class players like Nadal and Federer, Tiger and the Kid, as well as foosball's own Rico put the lie to your perceived problem.
This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.
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Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life?
No, and also I own 3 types of foosball tables, only 1 of which is ITSF certified.
That is what I'm saying Farid, his cronies at the ITSF, and of course the 5 approved manufacturers would like!
That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world? Nothing is worth getting there. No global aspiration is worth that! This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?
I don’t really see where you are going with this. but no I don’t support Hitler. Now that we got that out of the way…
Hitler did accomplish a lot, and Farid will too, and has already. As cetainly as hitlers goals were wrong, Farid is working towards positive goals, if he ever tries to make tornado become bonzini or the other way around then I would not support that. However, I do support the change of tornado to a 1 man goalie. The timing was bad, but the change is being made with the best interests in mind. He is trying to grow table soccer. It is hard to convince about 75% of the people in the world to play on tornado because of the extra men, alienating that many people is not good for foosball. however making those people not feel alienated is good for foosball. I actually like 3 men better. I think it puts more emphasis on the 5 bar and as billy said on the other board it makes it harder to put you 2 bar clearances off the back wall to your 3. Either way, I’m willing to accept change if it is done for the greater good.
The point was, most egotistical megalomaniacs with a God-complex or delusions of grandeur, who insist that they know what is supposed to be, who ignore those who question, have a friggin' BAD idea of what everyone needs! Perhaps if he had lived and played in all 5 (formerly 13) regions of tables, but NO WAY. And why were there no screams and hollers for the previous two World Cups or championships that included the Tornado. This suddenly came up? Come on... A jackass is a Jackass ... is a JACKASS !!
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5 tables is enough diversity for me, and i'm sure most people. Its all fine and good if there are other tables - P4P adn warrior most notably - with there own tours, but at an international competition there must be limits.
how do you know he ignores those who question... in fact, I can only think of 1 person that actually contacted the ITSF in all of this.
Also, the only time I emailed the ITSF with a question(a year or so ago) they responded in a timely manor and answered my questions with the answers I was hoping to hear but was worried that they were headed in a different direction.
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And why were there no screams and hollers for the previous two World Cups or championships that included the Tornado. This suddenly came up?
I will be willing to guarantee there were screams and hollers. Half the time when I play against someone in a bar on tornado the other person says they dont want to play because of the 3 man goalie.
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This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.
There's the fallacy again! If you made a 6 ft tall foosball table, and you also had thousands of players across one or more countries that used and played it, then that group deserves representation in international play! They would not be inconsequential because some know-it-all group led by F Lounatic just said it was!
And believe me, despite the silly examples, of course, if the ATP sanctioned events on a broken glass court, and enough players toured on it, Nadal and Federer would be there too! And Rico may need stilts, but he would certainly try to prove he can foos with anyone and anybody around the world, even on stilts on a 6ft tall foosball table! Any enlightened international organization would recognize which countries and regions had their own variety and would respect that!
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its not a fallacy at all, you somehow cant comprehend that there needs to be a limit to what is foosball and what isn't foosball. If a 6 foot tall table can still be called foosball then what is not foosball, where is your line and who will draw it? I believe if a country brought a 6 foot tall table to the world cup that most foosball players would be pretty disapointed that they have to play on it under your system.
Despite the silly examples, there certainly needs to be standards. Those standards need to be enforced. Right now the ITSF is both of those things.
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This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.
No, it is not exactly the same. Even if the ITSF is the only organization, SO FAR... If the ATP leadership were ever to insanely mandate changing the tennis surfaces to one format, the leadership would get booted out the windows. And this is what should happen to the ITSF leadership. If the International Golf Assoc were to mandate that British and Scottish golfcourses had to switch over to the lush, huge expanses of American PGA style courses or even the Euro style metrics, those idiots would get thrown in the channel!
So if you had only one international body and their members were a f*ck-up, you recommend just smiling and taking it? Live with it? How stupid is that? No! You criticize them, and if they do not justify themselves, you pull the plug and stop supporting them! Other morons can come in and definitely do as bad and as half-*ssed a job as they did!
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its not a fallacy at all, you somehow cant comprehend that there needs to be a limit to what is foosball and what isn't foosball. If a 6 foot tall table can still be called foosball then what is not foosball, where is your line and who will draw it? I believe if a country brought a 6 foot tall table to the world cup that most foosball players would be pretty disapointed that they have to play on it under your system.
Despite the silly examples, there certainly needs to be standards. Those standards need to be enforced. Right now the ITSF is both of those things.
Of course it's a fallacy, Will. If thousands of people around the world happen to be playing on 6ft tall foos tables, and get shut out of the "supposed" Worlds, then that really wouldn't be a representative World Championships would it? It would only be a world BonziniTornadoGarlandoRobertoTecball championships, but nowhere near the Olympic ideal.
And like ALL good, tough, cooperative world sports or game organizations, the ITSF has to be able to take criticism, be able to act on it, and not make decisions on the fly behind closed doors while dealing with manufacturers. If not then they can go hang! The ITSF merits more blind acceptance than the International Cycling Fed that was torn up because of doping and cheating? This point of view: "it's what we got, so live with it," is so asinine and ridiculous, I can't believe your argument! And what is this defense of Farid? Is he the only one on this foos planet with a vision? Or is he the only one who got 5 manufacturers to collude to corner the foosball market? He has proven NOTHING to show how his vision is bringing foosers of the world together. World Cup, gone... World Championships, in Nantes, not even Paris or London or Berlin, instead of South Africa. WTF is this guy doing except having pretend championships in his backyard?
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ok... i feel like the logic that I used in all of my arguments have proven several times over that my point is valid. however to make this even simpler, i'll take the example out of it and just use words that the example was supposed to represent. If a ton of people were playing something that is not foosball(pick anything you want), but called it foosball(even though its not foosball), and brought that to the world cup of foosball, pretending that it is foosball, then someone would need to step in and say that what they were doing is not foosball, and that they can make there own world cup for the game they play, that is completely separate from foosball. right now that is the ITSF. maybe there guidelines are more firm and exact than you would like - because you think that a 6 ft table could be acceptable - but someone needs to govern the game.
No, it is not exactly the same. Even if the ITSF is the only organization, SO FAR...
have they ever given an indication of changing? no.
If the ATP leadership were ever to insanely mandate changing the tennis surfaces to one format, the leadership would get booted out the windows.
A. the ITSF hasn't tried to mandate changes to 1 surface, just slight modifications to keep things all within the same guidelines.
B. the ATP has made changes to improve the game, such as introducing video replay. There were small portions of people in the world upset with that, like the tornado change, but most people realized it is for the greater good.
So if you had only one international body and their members were a f*ck-up, you recommend just smiling and taking it? Live with it? How stupid is that? No! You criticize them, and if they do not justify themselves, you pull the plug and stop supporting them! Other morons can come in and definitely do as bad and as half-*ssed a job as they did!
If it were even close to as bad as that then I would probably just play IFP tournaments. Until the nature of supply and demand created another governing body that worked better.
Of course it's a fallacy, Will.
I now realize that you didn't understand what fallacy meant... but If you think it means "logical argument that proved a valid point several times over" then i agree with you ;)
If thousands of people around the world happen to be playing on 6ft tall foos tables, and get shut out of the "supposed" Worlds, then that really wouldn't be a representative World Championships would it? It would only be a world BonziniTornadoGarlandoRobertoTecball championships, but nowhere near the Olympic ideal.
no it would still be the world championships of foosball, and whatever the other people decided to call there sport, they could have there own world championships, if rico was best at "superhightableball" then he would probably go to that tournament as well. however if he was the best at rock paper scissors he would be in those world championships too...
And like ALL good, tough, cooperative world sports or game organizations, the ITSF has to be able to take criticism, be able to act on it, and not make decisions on the fly behind closed doors while dealing with manufacturers. If not then they can go hang!
I have dealt a good amount of constructive criticism to the ITSF in this thread, you should read what I have written now so you can come up with a logical argument against what I said.
And what is this defense of Farid? Is he the only one on this foos planet with a vision?
He is the only one actively perusing a vision to get the world involved, yes.
Or is he the only one who got 5 manufacturers to collude to corner the foosball market? He has proven NOTHING to show how his vision is bringing foosers of the world together.
I'm sure by now you know that the ITSF is willing to change the manufacturers, because I wrote about that before, and it is on the ITSF web site. More importantly this is what he has to show for his vision: The world cup, a world wide ranking system, a rules system used everywhere in the world. these did not exist until his vision brought it... those are much more than nothing i'm sure anyone would agree.
World Cup, gone...
I better refund my plane ticket then, because I don't think I am going to enjoy playing in it if it doesn't exist anymore...
In case a reader doesn't know i'm being sarcastic, it is not gone, it is happening in january in nantes.
World Championships, in Nantes, not even Paris or London or Berlin, instead of South Africa. WTF is this guy doing except having pretend championships in his backyard?
He took it out of south africa, i'm happy about that, however I think that it should have been decided diplomatically that the worlds be moved, and also where they were moved to.
All in all, i do see where you are coming from, and I understand completely the difficult changes that they are making. They may be hard to take, and by all means do something about it. If you were to start a tour, organization, even CORPORATION, that promoted foosball in a positive way, I would support you for doing it.
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Will17,
Since you insist on not recognizing that in the US, including foosball players, it is useless to to try to convey to you the horror of any kind of outside influence or rule with no representation, I will agree to disagree. Either because of the vagueness and lack of communication from the ITSF, perhaps misrepresentation, or for some other purpose, US players are now aware of how dictatorial and non-consultive the ITSF is, with everybody. I believe that a growing majority of US Players, led by several of their top world players, no longer support the ITSF with it's high-handed dealings through Brunswick-Valley-Dynamo or BVD. IFP, which has a growing following, especially among new recruits does not suffer the day-to-day instability of Brunswick and several divisions including Valley-Dynamo are now on the block.
International play is nice, and Olympic play is a nice dream, especially for the 50 or so elite who get to go, but has never been needed by any of the countries or federations involved. But especially in today's current economic conditions, international play is a luxury that many US players (or Euro or South American or Asian players for that matter) can do without for years. It is incumbent on your adored Farid to foster trust and a better line of communications, if that's possible after the recent rule changes from Nantes. (yes we all saw how the foosballboard.com user AmericanFoosball tried to go through the nightmare of the ITSF.org site).
IFP is probably going to be an adversarial association despite all the nice talk, and they definitely have no trust and a very low opinion of BVD management. The ITSF may just be another idea that won't pan out. I know the individual manufacturers and regions can go on without it, just like they did the past 30 years. And there is no need for some idiot with his or her vision. Just use the Olympic or XGames model, (both are complete with bylaws and rules and specification guidelines) come up with an acceptable set of rules and tables, and they can go on. No compromises with any region or nation needed. So the ITSF can easily be replaced as superfluous, and an artifice for just making money off of peoples' addiction to foosball.
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I also believe that our points have been made and I think your opinion is of value. Agreeing to disagree is the best idea.
yes we all saw how the foosballboard.com user AmericanFoosball tried to go through the nightmare of the ITSF.org site).
I have a sneaky feeling AmericanFoosball may be our very own BBTuna... Outspoken, well informed, and passionate anger, just a hunch.
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What ever happens in the next little while, I hope it brings more foosball to places near me and you.
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Will,
"Outspoken, well informed, and passionate anger"
thanks, I take that as a compliment
I am working on a Blog (maybe the first foosball blog?) and hope to open that for business soon - I have the site and I am trying to get familiar with it
I want to make sure I have plenty of material to draw on if everyday foos stuff is slow and that I can write regularly, I have been hesitant to start it because it will take an ongoing comittment to make it relevant
we will see
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Si, mi Gringo,
You could get AngryAmericanFoos.mad or something like that.
Hope there aren't too many rants, but tales of womanizing and debauchery instead, all in the name of foosball. And you can even put in why those sheep were tied up to the foosball table, too! :o
It'd be great to have like a "Top Ten Reasons to Invite the ITSF to Your Home."
Or, "My 10-year Nets Guy was an Alien".
Or, "My First Goalie was a Pony."
Or, "My Forward is a Serial Killer."
Or, "Why the Chicken Wing Crossed the Road."
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American Foosball -
It was meant to be a compliment, while i don't agree with everything you say I know it is put together well and I obviously respect that you are trying to do your part for foosball which is always good.
And as for starting the blog, i'm sure many people would read it, including myself. Post on this board to let us know when it is started!
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Killa,
I will make sure it has humor...got have substance but it needs balance so if I start tipping the scales one way or the other, please remind me with a quick slap in the face because foosball is supposed to be fun
Will,
You don't agree with everything I say...Yet! It takes time to bring people around, but after a couple of drinks, sharing a blunt, and my special Jedi mind tricks you will be repeating after me..."You don't need to see his identification" "I don't need to see his identification"
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Killa and Will,
thanks for the support...serious note...I really didn't come up with the Americafoosball name as a Nationalistic thing, it just has come off that way with the ITSF thing on the other board
the reason for the name was because I don't feel I know or understand international foosball well enough and the foosball I am worried about is here in the states...regardless of what international foosball does or who is connected to it, foosball in the US has plenty to be proud of and plenty to work on
I think I tried to make it clear on the other board that I am not anti-international, I don't have a Euro or Asian bias or any specific country or region
further I don't have a bias toward tables or methods, my concerns are for foosball health and growth in the America's (primarily US) balanced with reason, planning, and hope
I have never thought of myself as angry and most subjects I will talk about won't have that tone but I have grown tired of the way players are treated and that they do not have any representation that isn't potentially compromised by relationships with conflicts of interest
Also, I think US foosball won't MATURE until there is a League apart from the table manufacture
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What's funny is that the first promoter to have enough M & M's to dump Tornado was Mary!
And because she organizes, plans, and promotes foos in the way Valley and then Brunswick should have done decades ago, suddenly America is a multi-table foos country again!
No disrespect to Alan and Bonzini USA, since they have declared their wish not to break into the major market segment and share, but just wish to have their Eastern Seaboard tour and their awesome charity events. OF the players, BY the players, and FOR the players. Proof of their iron chkn nougats is shown when they told Bonzini and the ITSF to take the new ITSF ball and stick it deep with a steel toed boot, the hard way.
If Mary succeeds in meeting with Euro and Asian and South American top players and promoters, (LEAVING THE MANUFACTURERS OUT) she might be able to persuade them to go to the US and try the well capitalized new Warrior tour, and even have multi-table events in conjunction with Warrior Worlds. I even suggested to her to bring 3-4 of her "IFP" customized Warriors to her hotel in Nantes, where I'm sure all those intl players and promoters would just eat up checking out the American ballcontrol Warrior. Of course, that might get her banned from the events room, if she's too successful, hahaha!