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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: slammer1977 on December 22, 2008, 05:08:45 PM
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I am a Tornado tournament player from MN. A little over a year ago I moved to SC (the tornado dead zone). The only foosball I can find now is Bonzini. Which has been hard for me to get used to. I miss my tornado... I now see there are some Warrior tourneys in the area. How much of a difference is there between Tornado and Warrior?
I was checking out some web videos and saw some people I have seen play tornado many times (Moore - Gummy - etc) It obviously looks a lot closer then Bonzini. Can anyone please inform me of the differences? Especially the snake shooting and 5 bar. I will probably have to go to a tourney without touching a table first.
Thanks,
Baatzy
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everything I read and then my own experience said that you can make the transition in a matter of minutes/hours
Warrior more control mainly because of the ball which is really really nice
most of the transitions comes from adjusting to the extra control, the rest of the table dimensions, men, width, height, distance between men, interior playfield, etc are all the same
goal is 3/16 smaller on Warrior
solid rod on W -vs- hollow on T
1 man goalie with ramps on W -vs- 3 man no ramps on T
solid rod and tackier ball means slower lateral speed not so much whip as Tornado but you can generate some serious torque
some pulls shots need to move starting position fwd a bit but many don't have to move it at all
brush up is better on W because of extra tackie but brush down requires some adjustment
stick pass catch, especially lane, is much easier because of the extra control
people probably lean a little toward saying the solid rod wears on their arm but that is not universal - like it didn't bother me at all even at the end of the weekend
no side strips means banks are easier to hit consistently without the ball jumping but the man foot is still curved on the front and so the bank issue isn't resolved 100% of Tornado...maybe 70% better in my opinion
no side strips means ball will go dead on the wall and that is a little annoying but nothing you can't work around
first impression is the W is slower and in absolute terms I am sure that is true but it didn't seem to make any difference in scoring percentages as far as I could see
I shoot a backpin and it made my short game better and not worse like I expected...lot more control with brush back shorts
last comments is on ramps -vs - 3 man goalie no ramps - I thought it would be a big transition but I actually liked it, less slop but it opens up other issues traping the ball in goal and setting up pulls and pushed right up next to the wall
there are build issue things that are being addressed which I won't talk about in this email but I can tell you if you are a Tornado fan, you will make the transition quickly and I am going to guess you like the play on Warrior real well...I loved playing on the Warrior and miss it
took me longer to transition back to my Tornado from the Warrior than the other way around, the War is just easier to play on...think you will like it, let me know
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EDIT: I just read your review BBtuna, at least the info is accurate because I pretty said the same thing as you.
They are very similar. The ball is grippier on Warrior, the ball tictacs faster on tornado. Snake shooting is very similar on both tables, it is a little bit easier to get lateral movement on a warrior, and walking the ball around on a snake is easier, but really 99% of the time a person that would win on tornado would still win on warrior. It takes a little while to adjust to brush passing on a warrior, the ball pinches easier in the back pin position, so the spot to brush from on the 5 is further forward. The walls on warrior have a dead spot so if the ball is stuck against the wall you can get in a bad position with 3 walls. The single man goalie was an obvious difference, but if you have read anything recently on foosball boards you already know whats going on with tornado switching to 1 man goalie. Banks are easier on a warrior than on a tornado, because of the wall strip that was previously mentioned. I haven’t played with the newly designed man on warrior yet, which does look very different, however from reports that may be biased(the promoter of the tour played on warrior) the man plays the same or better.
To sum it up, play on warrior if you like the tornado style game, it fairly similar and won't be too hard to adjust.
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Hi bbtuna
Being a Bonzini player, I tend to stay out of the Tornado vs Warrior / 3-man vs 1-man debate but have been reading with interest the various back and forths on other threads regarding ITSF rules, the 1 man Tornado for worlds etc. and in one of these threads (New Balls) you seem quite enraged (or at least spirited) and query... "why would a manufacture make an "International" model which they force all the current countries/players who have previously chosen the 3 man Tornado as their "home" table for THE biggest multi-table format event when all the players decided on your table when it was a 3 man table?"
Then I check out this thread and you say...
last comments is on ramps -vs - 3 man goalie no ramps - I thought it would be a big transition but I actually liked it, less slop but it opens up other issues traping the ball in goal and setting up pulls and pushed right up next to the wall
I think I get that you are more peeved at the loss of control by the player community with respect to rule and table changes but is this 'much to do about nothing' when it comes to the 1man/3man debate?
Wouldn't players choosing the Tornado as their home table still pretty much have full advantage if "you can make the transition in a matter of minutes/hours" from a 3man table to a completely different table (Warrior) with 1 goalie?
That being said, I have commented on this forum before that I would find it very frustrating if the table I played on changed 'competition' model on almost a yearly basis. When I got back into foos a couple years back the top Tornado was the T2000...then came the F5 (for a heartbeat) and then the T3000 and now plastic handles, new balls and a 1 man goalie.
So what do you actually prefer - 1 man or 3 man. If it is the 1 man - then isn't the Tornado change an improvement?
Todd in TO
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Baatzy-- You and your girl should take a weekend trip to Asheville NC.
Tornado foos at Nortons Grille is great, the people wonderful and the town is beautiful!!!
I can't wait to try out Warrior! I love having three tables in the US to play on!
BLT
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MrBasso,
you bring up a good point but there is no conflict and I hope to remove any confusion. I am not arguing for 3 vs 1, that is a separate debate. I feel the same about the introduction of the “new “approved” ball. My points are
• This debate never took place
• The current player base should have input
• A change like this should not take place without approval by players and USTSF
• A change like this should be known far in advance
• The way this is being handled is evidence of what the ITSF and Tornado think of the current player base specifically the US players
• Where is the USTSF in all this their silence is deafening
• I don’t think manufactures should be working with a non-profit organization and making decisions about the future of the game since there is an obvious conflict of interest
• This shows contempt toward the US players (and other countries players who chose Tornado as their home table) having to make adjustments during a tournament on their own home table
• This was caused by their own country in a sense since Tornado is a US company
• This has been a pattern of Tornado and now a pattern I am seeing with the ITSF and it needs to stop.
• This is about sovereignty and democracy vs socialism/dictatorship
• Most importantly, there needs to be a balance of power and players need a voice
Which do I personally like best? Well, I find pros and cons for both. But none of my ideas on the plus or minus on them includes soccer only having 11 men, this means nothing to me though I understand it may mean a lot to those are life long soccer fans. I really don’t get the connection because hills in the corner aren’t their either but hey, what do I know.
Anyway, as Billy Papas points out on the other board, I think the 1 man gives a big offensive advantage in singles….he brings the point up from the 2 bar but the advantage exists on the 5 bar as well – that is the ability to use the back wall without those extra men running interference.
I started on TS so I have 1 man in my background but I have become accustomed to 3 man. When I played Warrior recently I was very okay with the 1 man but before Billy said anything, I was already working on series to use the back wall next time I play 1 man. I think it would become very common after players see the advantages.
But what I think individually isn’t important, this is about the principles of leadership philosophy, sovereignty, communication, and players voice.
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Yeah, although we play on Tornado, I just introduced the dead off-the-back wall pass to my local group. One guy about had a heart attack when I did that dead ball pass, lol, they all know about illegal dead ball passes. Once I convinced them that a ball that leaves your zone and then returns like this pass does is legal to catch. Now they know one more trick to use against me...
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The danger of the pro or promaster 2bar bounce pass off the defender's back wall, as Billy described, is compounded by the fact that if its successful enough, the defender has to think of taking the 2bar off the nearest center lane area to grab or stop a backwall bounce from leaving the area. This destroys the basic principle of completely shutting down the nearest center lane (53-52 in a pull side, 54-53 in a push side) as described in the basic Center Zone D. As you can observe Rico's and Billy's and Tommy's combo lefthand grip on the defending Gbar & 2bar, once the defender has to start moving the 2bar independently in D more and more, the center holes open up, just as Billy described.
At the highest level of world class play, I can see where losing the Tornado's G3 and G1 figures will really make a difference. Almost all top singles players know and live & die by center zone D, because at their level, having only one figure, either the goalplayer or 2bar, blocking that center lane is suicidal. This also highlights the difference of the defensive game with the wider Tornado and multi-table goals versus the obsolete "long & short" D, back when you could fork both center lanes with the goalplayer and 2bar. The narrower old goals prevented long sprays and cutbacks through the lane. This is in contrast to today, where having only one figure in the back defending that lane is impossible against any decent semipro or better 2bar shooter.
I don't know if the bounce off the back wall from the 5bar is anywhere near as effective, except for showboating, because if your 5bar can consistently get through, then you can just as easily practice catching on the 3bar directly without adding the potential of a snag by the defender, which is part of good defensive play, being ready to snag misdirected or blocked 5bar passes. Although I will add that having only the 2bar figures available to snag a backwall bounce must help the percentages.
I've noted that the 2bar bounce off the backwall seems easier to control on the 3bar. It gives oneself more time to catch on the 3bar, and is easier to get through, probably because the defending 5bar is not going nuts trying to shut down a 5bar pass, while also having to concentrate on the defending 3bar, all at the same time. A "spanning" defender on a single goalplayer table, who defends with the right hand on the 3bar, left hand on the Gbar, definitely is a sucker for the bounce off the back wall. Those defenders would have to switch the left hand on the 2bar to defend bounce passes. And completed 3bar passes are so much more overwhelming nowadays, because the common snake or rollover shots on tour are so good, so machinelike, and so energy-conserving, that its even more disheartening for a defender to give up so many 3bar attempts.
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i am the spray. you will know me soon enough. player of the year at the pitcher house is just on of the many accomplishments of my foos days! i have beat all of you in the 80's, anybody that was anybody then. 5 could not be stopped so i lived with the ball and some games took awhile due to the amount of shots it took for me to score. I AM ALSO KNOWN AS THE BROWN MACHINE. HEY GUYS!? DO U KNOW?
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I AM ALSO KNOWN AS THE BROWN MACHINE.
Is that because you're full of....?
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i am the spray. you will know me soon enough. player of the year at the pitcher house is just on of the many accomplishments of my foos days!
Is that what they named you, back in the days of The Pitcher House on PCH, because you liked to hit the urinals from outside the restroom door? That is a skill. Lemme ask Sunny Juwani and Nagy da Machine if they remember you... "Da Sprayhhh". That period, if I remember, is when Ronnie, now back in St. Louis, was living with his girlfriend down the road on PCH.
I was putzing around at Charles' Billiards in Glendale at the time.... hmmmmm.
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C mon Brad. Read between the lines. He wants to spank you and then give you chocolate icecream. lol.
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C mon Brad. Read between the lines. He wants to spank you and then give you chocolate icecream. lol.
I'm taking Cleveland to win it all.
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C mon Brad. Read between the lines. He wants to spank you and then give you chocolate icecream. lol.
I'm taking Cleveland to win it all.
You mean Cleveland's NHL team, right? ;)
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I AM ALSO KNOWN AS THE BROWN MACHINE.
Is that because you're full of....?
Myself yes! Brown is my last name and i played like a machine but you can have it my new nickname is CHAMPION
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i am the spray. you will know me soon enough. player of the year at the pitcher house is just on of the many accomplishments of my foos days!
Is that what they named you, back in the days of The Pitcher House on PCH, because you liked to hit the urinals from outside the restroom door? That is a skill. Lemme ask Sunny Juwani and Nagy da Machine if they remember you... "Da Sprayhhh". That period, if I remember, is when Ronnie, now back in St. Louis, was living with his girlfriend down the road on PCH.
I was putzing around at Charles' Billiards in Glendale at the time.... hmmmmm.
Sonny? Ask Jeep, Ben, Kid, Flair, Bacon, Stevens, Stork, Lott, Horton, Alwell, Spear and some real players that i was playing while you were putzing around.
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Das Kool, Spray!
So what do you think of the new crop of players, all weaned on the monkey wristshot?
Think there's hope for dem der fellers?
Happy New 09!
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I thought the Warrior played very similar to the Tornado, just slower. My snakes worked fine, tic-tac passes were slower, and brush passes stubbed more if I tried a deep brush. I didn't try any pullshots. They need to forget painting the handles on the Warrior, they should use a bare wood handle for those times when you feel like playing bareback. My perfect table would be a compromise between the two--more ball control than the Tornado, but more lively tic-tac action off the men than the Warrior because I like tic-tacs, they are the funnest shot for me even though my snake is more consistent. In funzie games I shoot staggered tic-tacs 3 to 1. I did NOT like the 1 man goalie. Although I started on TS, I've been on a 3-goalie system for too long now. My goalie game, especially in singles, suffered from the lack of wingers due to less options with shooting and passing. Flatten the surface, restore the wingers, I wouldn't have a problem with the Warrior.
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..... My goalie game, especially in singles, suffered from the lack of wingers due to less options with shooting and passing. Flatten the surface, restore the wingers, I wouldn't have a problem with the Warrior.
That would make a perfect Warrior! Or closer to it, at least.
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handles are a no win situation for someone
wood you can go bare back but they don't work well with gloves and so most people require wraps - no cleaning for dirt and germs
hard plastic mean you can go glove or wrap but if you sweat just a little no bare back - easier to clean for dirt and germs
if you go a softer more poris plastic you can go bare back or glove and wraps are optional only issue is they will wear out quckly and they will hold dirt/germs more
my main concern for Warrior is build quality and them developing a coin-op
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My main concern with the Warrior is the Solid rods. Get rid of those damn things! It really messes up my game going back and forth between the two...
I am not really a big fan of the single man goalie, but I can learn to live with it... I just think that the rods are too heavy for the men and the ball... if you put the lighter rods on the table it would play ALOT more like a Tornado with added control
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warrior tables are probably one the best tables all around but especially for the price and parts...christine at warrior is so cool she'll get youre parts to you with no problems. i got 2 tables one with yellow and red and the new blue and red men..both play tops!...go warrior and youll never have problems in replacing parts..plus the rods dont bend like the tornados.
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warrior tables are probably one the best tables all around but especially for the price and parts...christine at warrior is so cool she'll get youre parts to you with no problems. i got 2 tables one with yellow and red and the new blue and red men..both play tops!...go warrior and youll never have problems in replacing parts..plus the rods dont bend like the tornados.
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Really? Wait till you play with your first Fireball table, if you haven't yet.
Extend the rods out, stand on em (yes even your heavy friends) to change the lighting, etc..
I don't mind Warriors either... including those heavy rods which bring me back to the ole TS days... but.. Warrior's day may have come and gone, when Dennis J decided to broach the US and Asian markets.
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and I believe part of Brendan's original vision was a mostly family gameroom environment for Warriors.. another reason their coin-op versions still haven't shown up.. Prolly be rare to see, if ever, a coin-op Warrior in a college bar or a pool room or other locations besides family gamerooms, and those bars and halls are where most new foosers will get indoctrinated. That'll be more for those that started with coin-ops.. any of a half-dozen versions of coin-ops Tornados, coin-op Fireballs, and coin-op Bonzinis...
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probably right about Warrior ever being on tour again, since Mary moved to Tornado. but i really believe you can practice on a Warrior and still go to a tournament and play on a Tornado and win. my 2 tables are from the Big island back in 09, this year in nov. is another tournament but with Tornado. what do you think the biggest difference i should be looking for on the Tornado?
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probably right about Warrior ever being on tour again, since Mary moved to Tornado. but i really believe you can practice on a Warrior and still go to a tournament and play on a Tornado and win. my 2 tables are from the Big island back in 09, this year in nov. is another tournament but with Tornado. what do you think the biggest difference i should be looking for on the Tornado?
Whatever you do... warm up your passing and dribbling and overall ball control on the Tornados before playing matches.. at least the first day.. I believe shooting shots aren't as affected by the "feel" and different roll, bounce and rebound characteristics of the ball.. but passing and control like trapping the ball will be different enough.
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And yeah, I won't be one to disagree or naysay that one can practice on other tables including the Harvard and other low low low end tables that many purists seem to detest, and still improve tremendously with discipline and commitment. But the more different the table from the one in tournament, the more one simply has to take time to warmup and get accustomed to the tourney table, is all.
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never played on hollow rods...so i dont really know the difference. just by hearing reviews i would have to say thats probably the biggest difference in a Tornado and Warrior. hey foozkillah, tell me whats the biggest difference between the two...besides the 1 man goalie..which i prefer...is there really any big thing?..is it worth trying to get a Tornado from the Big Island tournament in Nov.
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never played on hollow rods...so i dont really know the difference. just by hearing reviews i would have to say thats probably the biggest difference in a Tornado and Warrior. hey foozkillah, tell me whats the biggest difference between the two...besides the 1 man goalie..which i prefer...is there really any big thing?..is it worth trying to get a Tornado from the Big Island tournament in Nov.
If you plan on playing more and more tourneys.. Tornado, either a newer or an updated older one would be a wise investment, at least on this continent. Keeping the Warrior wouldn't hurt either... it turns into weight training.. but just remember to give time to adjust to a Tornado or Fireball on those tables, as in a day or weekend before. Solid rodders would have less problems with energy or weariness or even speed going to hollows. Versus the consensus of foosers used to Tornados going to the solid... they had aches, pains, tired out faster.. so you wouldn't have to worry bout that.
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real good advice...let me know what i need to expect come nov. when i play in my first real tournament...give me some real professional advice.