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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: wayupnorth on November 26, 2010, 07:48:41 AM
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You guys seem pretty hard-core, so I'm a little nervous about even asking this question...
So, just for a moment, pretend that you have only a cursory interest in foosball and that you're not 100% certain how much you'd actually end up using a table because, well, because you've never really owned a table...
Now pretend that your family consists, at present, of mommy, daddy and two little kids...and that this table would be primarily for hanging out and diversifying our family fun nights.
Now pretend those little kids might maintain at least a passing interest in the game and that, one day, their buddies might hang out at our house instead of being out somewhere looking for trouble.
Oh, and also pretend that, a couple of times a month, you might have some couple friends stop by and, occasionally, those friends might be interested in kicking a tiny little foosball around the table.
Now, without telling me that the only table worth having is a new or used Tornado coin-op, could you tell me what type of table you'd recommend? Pretty please? This table would be near our nice family room, so I prefer that it not look like it came from Chuck E Cheese. (I know, I know, but I'm a girl and looks matter to me.) I'd prefer not to have to get a 15 year mortgage to purchase said table, so cost does matter.
Oh, and to complicate things, we live on a small island in Alaska, so, if we invest in a ridiculously expensive table and decide we don't want it anymore, finding a new home for it would not be an easy task. Same goes for shipping things here, which is one of the reasons I'd rather buy new than deal with an individual trying to cope with shipping to our little corner of the world, which can get expensive and complicated with an assembled table.
Part of me wonders if I shouldn't just buy something inexpensive for now to see if a table is going to be right for us, but I know that a crappy table can make it not so fun to play. However, as I said, I would also be horrified to buy a high-end table and find that it ends up gathering dust.
So what would you do? Buy a cheap table for a trial run? Are there any decent cheap tables out there that would serve the purpose of a "starter" table that won't be absolutely awful to play on? Then, if we end up loving it, we could invest in a really good table later... Or, for our purposes, should we just buy a upper-middle-of-the-road table (<$800) that will be decent enough to keep for the long haul? If this option, can you advise on this level of table? I had been looking at one called the Sportcraft AMF Torino, which fits my "must not look like it belongs in a bar" criteria, but I'm not sure how durable it is going to be.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me!
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It sounds like you are against the cost of a Tornado or Bonzini although the Bonzini would be safer for little ones to be around due to the telescopic rods. I would look for an older, but in good shape, Tournament Soccer table. They are a lot of fun to play on and are probably a lot better than these Walmart specials offered today in the chain stores.
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It sounds like you are against the cost of a Tornado or Bonzini although the Bonzini would be safer for little ones to be around due to the telescopic rods. I would look for an older, but in good shape, Tournament Soccer table. They are a lot of fun to play on and are probably a lot better than these Walmart specials offered today in the chain stores.
Thank you for your quick reply. As I mentioned, however, living on a small island in Alaska, finding and shipping a used, assembled table is just not an option.
I would like to buy new. I saw several tables on this website (www.justfoosballtables.com) in the <800 price range. I guess I'm wondering if any of them are any good. I'm not above investing in this sport, but having never owned a table (and living in remote Alaska where selling a quality table would be challenging at best), I am leary of spending $2,000 on a table if I'm not even certain it would be a good fit for our family.
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Buy Tornado, just Tornado, blah blah blah.
Seriously, I checked the website you mentioned and found that you can get better pricing on the Tornado models they offer by contacting www.tornadofoosball.com directly. Charles MacIntosh runs that firm and ships anywhere.
All the tables on the website had full rods that extend out the other side of the table. If you consider this a risk to small children, contact Alan Cribbs http://bonziniusa.com/ about a Bonzini table.
In both cases, buy new, keep it well maintained and lubricated. Don't spill drinks on it, and in 6 months or 20 years depending on how much you've enjoyed it, you'll be able to resell the table, even with shipping from Alaska, for at least half the price you paid. Used TOP END foosball tables hold their value.
Once you make your selection, there are many posts up here about maintenance, about tips for playing better, etc......and not everyone on this site is a lunatic.
Enjoy...
P.S. Start an Alaska foosball site. You'll be amazed to learn how many folks play and how far they'd travel to find others that love the game.
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http://anchorage.craigslist.org/spo/2071669952.html
If you buy something like that and end up playing a lot then consider buying a Tornado.
If you want to buy new as you mentioned, then look into "performance games". They make tables that are similar to Tornado/Fireball and are really well built.
A place called Pathmark Games here in Edmonton, Canada sells tables with custom designs on them, and they are not as expensive as new Tornado tables at all. You might be able to find a Performance Games distributor closer to you. If you are going to buy a table that is not Tornado/Bonzini/Fireball, then Performance Games or Shelti are the best two brands IMO.
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=244658178&ImageIndex=1
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Wayupnorth,
I am familiar with about every table known to man.
For your specific needs I would suggest a telescopic Rocket-It table.
Inexpensive and has the telescopic option. I think it is available through foosball.com also.
For longevity, I would have to go with Bonzini mainly because they do not change their design every year and they hold value.
For popularity, there is always Tornado in multiple price ranges and models.
And Fireball seems to be balancing cost and quality for that style of table.
Good luck!
AC
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Wow, you have all been incredibly helpful. Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer such specific information. Looks like I have plenty to keep me busy researching in the very near future. I really appreciate it.
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Okay, so I've been researching. Another question. In the Tornado line, is the "Sport" level table a decent table? Do you get quality at all levels or do you have to buy higher end to get quality? I can get the "Sport" for about $740. Or, the next step up in the Tornado line is the "Classic" for $950. There are other recommended brands in this price range, as well. Just wondering what your thoughts were...?
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If you can find someone that has one and someone to ship it to you, Fireball will be the biggest bang for your buck in my opinion. I have played most every table in the world, no doubt my favorite is the Tornado and normally I would advise someone to buy any model Tornado, BUT...... there have been so many quality control issues in the past , don't know if I can still do it. I would hate to see you get a brand new table with a warped surface or rods that bend easily.
If the Tornado has any more issues, I will no longer recommend it. The home model Fireball, although a little light, is possibly the most solid table built right now. Legs that extend up into the cabinet make the table super solid and rods that flex like crazy but retain their shape and are super fast " without " silicone make this table hard to beat for the price.
Bonzini, the safest out their but has a super crazy price in the 3000 dollar range, and style of play is limited on this table. Warrior..... cheap, but you get what you pay for, not user friendly. The Tornado is a great table just be careful, even buying a new one will be like buying a used car, buyer beware.
i would recommend Fireball. A solid table, at a good price , that is very playable. You might research where the last Fireball tourneys were held, they may even still have some for sell.
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to be honest any table you get would be good, behind the reason u wanna play, if you wanna play competitive any world type table would be good, from a champion world roberto sport table, or a world european garlando, to even tornado, lemacher or even bonzini,
now if u just wanna have fun with friends, having it when anyone comes over to play, then i think u might wanna consider european type tables like a roberto sport or garlando, btw no home version should be bought, they are a waste of money feel and everything goes out the door, and they get ruin pretty quickly...
it all depends on what u are looking for, everyone here has a biased opinion in some way or another, even myself i have a biased opinion, i like all tables if its a table i wanna play regardless of make or model, but i have some preference good example my favorite table is a tornado, but its not my best table... ;)
if you understand what i mean... so if you are interested sorry if u posted this b4 tell us what u are looking to do for with the table if its for fun or hobby
btw if i did have to choose if it was just for fun, i would get the champion world roberto sport table, u can play fast or slow ball, the glass floor can flip so u can play for fast or slow, thats 2 surfaces for the price of 1, plus it comes with bicycle grip handles so u never have to worry about buying grip, its the Italian world table, that they play fastball and slowball, but more fastball like azurri 1 touch :) the men are good for pining good for passing,
but the ball and men are smaller than tornado and the ball smaller than tornado, the bar's can bend, b/c there not as strong i think they have tescopic rods thats why they dont bend, even though the bars are flimsy and the biggest thing that most people like about them is, u dont have bars coming out of the other side to accidently hurt any kids or people bending there head down....
it came down here to toronto canada briefly but didnt take b/c the promoter did a poor job, put out maybe 4 tables in no name places all over ontario...
when we have over 4 mill people here LOL
ps do not ever buy a college or home version of this table, it has to be a champion world edition if they try to sell u a lower level brand keep moving...;)
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hello I know what your saying, my name is tony and i live in anchorage, their is a web site alaska foosball.com but the board doesnt get that much activity. Anyway on craigslist for anchorage their was a almost new t2000 for sale I think its a former player of ours named guy selling it. also theirs AAA billiards in anch that sells tables. Also you could try mountain coins in seattle wa. and ask for steve levy, tell him tony sent you. They should still sell home models. I am originally from sitka where in the bar at the sitka hotel is a home model tornado on free play you could check out and see what you think. theirs also the boys and girls clubs that might sell old tables they get a lot donated to them. I tell freinds that any good table should have 2 qualitys a least, 1 you should not be able to push the surface of the table down at all when you push your hand down in the center of the table , next ask if you can buy all the replacement parts you might need? This will eliminate 98% of all costco sears etc tables. People in the lower 48 dont know that shipping can run up to 300- 600 dollars in alaska, depending on where it has to go. Seatlle is a good option freinds have had home model tornados shipped on the ferry boat from seatlle to anc for 125$ All my freinds who have bought tornados are now happy with them and they lots or only when they can talk freinds into a game. But now that they have them they wouldnt buy cheap. At first they were really reluctant because the cheaper costco etc were stareing them in the face for 200-500 dollars cheaper, the ones who bought cheap are now wondering where to get parts although half of them dont admit it. The remoteness of alaska and the long winter nights make have a good game to play more vauble then the states. Also a good table can take really rough play which will become imporant when your kids become teenageers. Even adults take agression out on foosball, so kids can to like a karate class. I will be going home to sitka dec 10-19 if thats where you live maybe i can show a little about foosball. tony
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Thanks again for all the amazing follow-up and information.
Tony from AK, I know you understand my concerns with our remoteness and shipping up here. Shipping Southern Alaska Forwarding out of Seattle is typically the most reasonable way of shipping up from the lower 48 and something we have done often. As you know, dealing with a table that has "issues" of any kind is so much more complicated up here. This is part of why I had hoped to buy new...if the table arrived with issues, a manufacturer or store is much more likely to resolve the problems than an individual. We are in Kodiak, btw.
There were several brands here that were recommended and I have been looking into them all. I have been unable to find where to even try to buy (or find a price for) a Fireball - seems they maybe just take orders for them at tournaments, plus (and don't laugh at me) the field looks to be a bright blue color, which I'm not crazy about. The Bonzini is definitely out of our price range. Several others only seemed to come in bright "sporty" colors or aluminum, which is just not an option for the room this will be going into (I know, I know...) The Performance Tables appeared solid from what I could tell online, but seemed to be priced similar to what I could get a Tornado for. The Rock-it build just looks like it might not stand the test of time and is a little too contemporary in styling with the metallic cabinets for me.
On several of the others, what is truly confusing for the foosball newbie is that there are so many different levels of tables within the brands. It's overwhelming! If I could narrow down to a brand with wood(like) cabinets, then maybe I could continue to narrow down based on price and quality.
Someone asked what my purpose was for the table. This will definitely be a "for fun only" type of table with casual use by us and friends, however, one of you made a point that, one day, we'll have teenagers beating on this thing and we all know they are "gifted" at wear and tear. With that in mind, you are correct, a good quality table is going to be worth its investment in the long run.
I am struggling a little with several comments that were made:
First) One of you said not to even think about buying a "home use" table. Is this *any* home use table? Are all of the non-commercial tables really going to be that lacking??
Looking at Tornado as one example, there seem to be four levels. Tournament 3000 (coin op AND non-coin op), Elite, Classic, and Sport. Are you saying that the Elite, Classic, and Sport shouldn't even be considered? Also, is the Tournament 3000 coin op a different quality than the Tournament 3000 non-coin op or simply the same machine without the coin op mech? Personally, I would prefer not to deal with a coin op mech simply because is it unnecessary and would become one more moving part to maintain and worry about jamming or breaking.
As an aside, the darn T-3000 is an aluminum-style cabinet and that just won't work for me. I did get an e-mail that listed a used 2002 T-2000 Mahogany coin op. in very good condition (whatever that means). But, again, I'm worried about a used table appearing dirty or worn, concerned about the coin-op mech and, being in Alaska, I'm worried that, if there is an issue or a problem with this 10-year old table, any issues might quite difficult to resolve.
Second) The Tornado brand name is thrown around here a lot as top-end, however one of you mentioned some quality-control issues that have me concerned. Are the quality control issues on the lower-end tables or on all of them? If there were problems, how is Tornado customer service for handling issues?
Third) To make things more complicated, it seems there is another line (???) of Tornado tables by Valley-Dynamo like the Cyclone ii and the Storm? WTH? Are these Tornado tables also, or is this a subsidiary??? If a subsidiary, are they as good as the "regular" Tornado models. <sigh>
PGA_Fooser turned me onto tornadofoosball.com for better Tornado pricing. I just heard back from them and the prices seem very competitive, but I'm really struggling with what to do based on the questions I listed above.
I'm sorry to continue to ask questions, but, as I am learning more from your posts, I'm finding my questions are getting more specific. You've been incredibly helpful and I really appreciate your continued patience with me. It's clear you must love the sport to put up with a newbie like me. :)
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I know of many people who have home model older tornado tables that are very happy with them , in your exact situation and requierments. But they all live in anchorage or fairbanks. I think any thing above the storm will be perfect for you, if you want forever. You must not let any foosball table get wet, they will warp and be ruined. Kodiak is rain country, although i think tornado made a outside table once. Try calling parkwood inn and ask for randy comer , ask him if he knows if Matt littledog is still trying to sell his table? Its a tp 2000 probaly 1998 the top comes off but no coin op. This used to be my home table. It was in really good shape when I sold it to him. I think he wants 500-700$ for it. It would have cost 1200 back then without shipping, so your looking at a 1400-1500$ table. If you buy this one then when you get it order online a parts kit of new style balls, pins, lube, 4 men black and yellow a couple of bearings and go off the serial number on the tag of the table. When I would vend tables in anchorage, the tables in bars would get really dirty and grimey. But a good cleaning with half rubbing achol and half 409, and the bars would think I put in a new table. AAA billards sells alll the parts you will need in anchorage. Talk to who ever vends pool tables and darts they will know AAA and proably know about tornado.
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if i was you i would consider the cyclone II tornado table or the world champion roberto sport table...
the levels of tornado you are talking about is the weight of the table,
thats the only difference,when u goto home version... of tornado like storm or whirlwind they dont have the dual bearing that gives the tornado table the proper feel..
1 of the biggest differences you are gonna find if you buy a used table is the handle will be wood... the new t3k tornado has new plastic handle alot better than the wood that u would need to put grip on all the time except to louis cartwright who never uses a grip or did that change LOL
but if u want to get a tornado... cyclone II would probably be your best bet for your bite... or a coin up model t2k that u can buy used... i have a friend in buffalo that wants to get rid of his...he won his at a tourney and rarely ever uses it... he has sold many tables to alot of peeps in ontario soo.. i know he gives good quality tables
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G'day mate! Greetings from Tasmania - island off the bottom of Australia. Read this post with interest... A group of mates and I started with some kids foosball tables - kind you buy for $100 in the shops here - made for kids and play like it... But we got the bug, and when two tables broke we custom built our own.... Then we got more serious and shipped in... At huge cost... A French garlando world cup level table.... We're Now affiliating with itsf and aim to put a team into the world cup in 2012- australias first .... So moral of the story...
Whatever you choose - get a table... Anything is better than nothing... Get into it - big time- and move up as the need takes you!
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Shipped a table to Australia 2 weeks ago.
Foosball is gathering up speed downunder and it's summetime. :D
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a table is a table is a table...if all you want to do is play casually with your family until your kids leave home, any table is fine...why pay for a Tornado coin opp or a brand new Fireball when you can go to walmart and get a table for $200 brand new?
yea, and the $100 ???? pool table I got when I was a teen with the plywood surface is the same as a competition pool table and would last just as long and of course the play would be the same even for a novice...a $14.86 tennis racket from Walmart or the pros $300 racket or the $120 Walmart set of golf clubs and a $2000+ for pro clubs
the people on this site are not over zealous crazy foos nerds who don't understand those who want to play casual
I will speak now for me...I give advice because I love the game and still remember the first time I played and want to help people who want to play....doesn't matter to me if a person is a occasional player or someone who has caught the tournament bug...I am excited to find people who enjoy the game at whatever level and I want to help them any way I can…I have spent many hours off line helping people evaluate their situation and finding a table that fits their situation
Also, I have played on all kinds of tables from $100 ???? to $3000 Bonzini – I have played on the home model Tornado’s up to and including the Cyclone
you buy a USED Tornado coin op (or T2000/T3000 split top non-coin op)…you can find them from $300-$700 if you shop smart…its easy to evaluate them and to ensure you don’t get one of the tables that had warped surfaces (only made at the end of the T2000 “fridge” run when transitioning to the T3000 – about a year) outside of that, any coin op, any year from mid 1980’s on
why this and not a cyclone…
• because you will pay the same for a cyclone as you do for a used coin op…even a used cyclone
• the coin op plays better
• the coin op is built better…WAY better
a coin op will literally last a life time and if you decide you or one or more of your kids are interested in being more serious, they will already have a table everyone plays on
the bar we play in regularly, bought a Brown Marble brand new and it was in this bar for 15 years before they pulled it for a newer table to try and keep the foosers business…that table was abused by casual bar hacks and after 15 years still played as good as any table I play on…I would for sure own that table at home and would expect it, with minor TLC, to last 30 more years
there have been upgrades to the table since then but a casual player would find it hard to notice the differences so nothing driving you to spend $200 for a full upgrade but all changes are backward compatible going back to the brown marble…this means if you decide someday to get more serious, you can convert your table and get all the playing characteristics that the “serious” player gets
the only other table I would consider or recommend is the new Fireball…great playing characteristics and super good results from players on the build quality and you should be able to pick up a tournament used for around $700 so your budget will have to be at least that high
you said you couldn’t find where to buy one….contact info below and their website to see details about the table….if you decide u want to pursue FB the contacts below should be able to get you in contact with someone who has the model you want and hopefully in a tournament used (tournament used because they are a couple hundred cheaper usually and are like new)
Dennis
In any case, I can be reached at 1-800 770-4263 or
foosball_site@yahoo.com
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As the owner of a Storm II (like new) i got used I can say with certainty the quality is top notch. The cabinet is very solid and sturdy at 225lbs. Had I come across a coin op for 400 or less that would have been great....but I am not complaining. In a home setting this table will last indefinitely.
Storm II Features:
* 1-1/2" Gray marble laminate cabinet with rounded corners
* Friction grip wooden handle
* Centerless ground, chrome plated, hollow steel rods
* Three-man goalie
* Patented man and cushion system
* Side ball return
* Adjustable leg levelers
* Solid legs that will not warp or split
* Patented centerless ground urethane balls
* .125 Thick wall rods
* Laminated play field
* Counter balanced men
Dimensions:
* Length: 56"
* Width: 30"
* Height: 36"
* Weight: 225 lbs.
The Cyclone II is even a step up(split bearings and thicker rods):
* 1-1/2" Teak laminate cabinet with rounded corners
* Friction grip wooden handle
* Center less ground, chrome plated, hollow steel rods
* Three-man goalie
* Patented man and cushion system
* Foosball Table Tornado Side ball return
* Adjustable leg levelers
* Solid legs that will not warp or split
* Patented center less ground urethane balls
* .156 thick wall rods
* Laminated play field
* Counter balanced men
* Split bearings
Tornado Professional Foosball Table Dimensions:
* Length: 56"
* Width: 30"
* Height: 36"
* Weight: 225 lbs.
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Hey Shift, that's pretty cool you guys are doing that. You "down under's" are a fun bunch. It will be interesting to see the style that comes from there. Maybe you should contact Dennis from Fireball an see if you can get some help in promoting the game.
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of course it is a matter of opinion but I can give you plenty of testimonials saying the Storm is a piece of junk...I have played on it and the Cyclone many times...
the storm may say it weighs 225 but that is only one factor...the bearing on that table are a joke and the rods with the bearings are terrible...i suppose to some degree it is what you are used to but my church has one of these and it has a very hard time handling my game and it limits what I can do....ironically the church has 2 other tables, Camaron both I think but both very different styles and they are sturdier but at the same time the design and men make playing a joke and yet the Tornado is the last table the kids will choose on their own to play on
I have played for years on the Cyclone, 2 very good friends bought Cyclones when they started out thinking there was no difference, same rods, split bearings etc and both of them after playing on coin ops for several years finally saw the difference and both ended up selling their Cyclones when they could and buying coin ops....both tables after a fair amount of play were showing wear but my coin op after 7 years of 2-4 hours a day hard practice, is like new
there is no way a Storm or Cyclone will hold up anything near like the coin op does...now with that said, and I am not talking out both sides of my mouth, to be fair, you can get world class good playing on a Cyclone…the 2008 Worlds Semi Singles got to his level practicing on a Cyclone
even with that said, he will tell you the coin op is a much better table – still, if you want to provide a great time of play, and have one that will work for the most casual player or provide the basis for more serious growth if anyone becomes interested….the playing experience, assuming you have Tornado foosballs, is so much better
your family of course won’t see the difference or have a point of reference but it will allow for them the greatest chance of enjoying the game and playing for years to come
I am 53 and can still play at a very high level, I am even still getting better, so foosball can be a game to play for a lifetime and there is no reason not to pay smart money for the right table right away
I have found dozens of tables for people on this board and have tracked the sale, or non sale, of all Tornado coin ops on eBay for more than 4 years now, and I still do, and I know what tables sell for and how much you can get them for…you can find early coin op Brown Marbles for $300-$400 and that table is better than any home model Tornado ever made…within the last 7 months I have seen at least 6 Grey Marbles sell for $500 which is an absolute steal…you can get any model ever made except for the most recent, for $700 or less (I don’t think they are all worth $700, I am just saying you can get a great table for a great deal if you take your time….if you have bucks to spend you can buy the current model for about $1250 delivered
And if you want the latest greatest you can buy a FB home model and get the best of both worlds for about $700 or a coin op for about $900
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Calling the Tornado home tables junk(at least Storm II or Cyclone II as i am not familiar with other tables) is down right mis- leading. To imply they are like a walmart table...come on. I had not played in 10 years... I came across my inferior table and once again I am hooked on the game. I am able to practice on the Storm II and see improvement when I head to the pub and play on a T3000. To not be completely combative... I will agree the coin op for the same price is a better deal and given the option that is the way to go.
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Bolt, don't take it the wrong way. Keep in mind, most of the people on the board who give advice are hard core players and sometimes forget that not everyone else is. Probably all the tournament players prefer the coin ops and sometimes they come off in a bad way to less hard core players.
I'm a coin op Tornado player myself. I learned to play on an old German clone that I don't really care to play on anymore. Even though I started playing Tornado in the 70's, it didn't become my favorite table until the early 80's. I've played the Fireball and I have to admit, it plays really well. I'm hesitant to recommend it though because they don't have a track record. That comes after a few years and not something that happens overnight. I do think they're on the right track though.
If you get enjoyment out of your table, that's great. Have fun and when you get the chance come out and join the party. You'll find a lot of new friends with a passion for foosball.
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Wow, I continue to get great information out of this thread. I am truly grateful for those of you who take the time to discuss this issue. I read somewhere that most of the new posters on here come looking for information on what table to buy. So, for them, as well, I hope this thread will prove helpful in the future and you will have to do at least a *little* less rehashing of the same info over and over again. (I am on a photography forum and we spend quite a bit of time helping newbies through the same issues over and over again. I don't mind, though, because I remember starting myself and how difficult the learning curve can be.) So, again, thanks.
I want to make the right decision, which is why I came here after sifting through every bit of info I could find on the net.
I spoke with the lady at the Tornado manufacturer in Texas (on a different issue) and ended up discussing the home tables with her. Her take was that either the Classic or Elite would work well for my needs. Both weigh 225lbs. Both have the same counterbalanced men (unlike the Sport, which does not have counterbalanced men). The bearings are 1pc snap in on the Classic vs. 2 pc slip bearing on the Elite (which she said meant that, if you have to replace a man or clean bearings, the 2 pc slip is easier). Both have hollow rods, although the rod wall thickness is slightly thicker on the Elite than on the Classic.
After speaking to her, I had just about settled on the Classic before returning here to this site again to re-read this thread, finding more information.
One thing I have realized, in bantering about the different options is that, with a coin-op, there is a wider market available if we needed to get rid of it someday. While a high-end home model will most likely only appeal to other families looking for a high-end table (fewer and farther between in a state with only 600,000 people and an island city of only about 14,000), a coin op would have the benefit of appealing to businesses, as well as families looking for a high-end table (provided it is in excellent condition). Additionally, if we really wanted to hassle with it, there would always be the option of placing the table somewhere and letting it earn its keep.
As I mentioned, the biggest problems for me in acquiring a used table at a "bargain" price are that I can't see the table in person and, most importantly, the table has to be shipped...a LONG way and, most likely, through two different shippers...one to Seattle and another up to our location. Someone who doesn't know what they are doing when packaging could easily end up allowing the table to be damaged through the shipping process.
So, all that said, I found a brand new Elite or a 2002 mahogany at a reputable dealer for about the same price after shipping (since the mahogany is 100lbs. heavier). After reading through here, though, it seems that the mahogany might not be as good of a price as I should try to look for, but, like I said, my options for shipping a used table with someone who knows what they are doing are limited. Maybe it's worth the extra dollars to know that it's been reconditioned, is in great shape, and will be shipped well.
The question ends up ultimately with, should I buy the used table for more than it's worth (according to my research) or get the Elite at what would appear be a really good price?
(or, of course, forget the whole thing because I am so overwhelmed with choices and options........<sigh>)
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papafoos-no need to apologize for me because I am a stilted "tournament" player who, unlike you the rational balanced tournament player, have lost touch with Mr Average Joe Casual Player
I have not lost touch, I understand what these people are looking for and how they plan to use a table and it is still my professional opinion that this is the right way to go taking into consideration ALL the variables and options
people have been coming on here for years asking for help buying tables, I have provided this help and am contacted regularly as I was yesterday again...I have helped probably more than 2 dozen people find the right table...
I know plenty of them who were very excited and thankful that they got a coin op instead of the many other options they considered...I have many people say they bought a less expensive version and later moved up to a coin op and after getting it, they felt they wasted time and money on the lesser model. I have never heard of someone saying it the other way around
I work hard to not judge and to accommodate people's wants, needs, and budgets but in the end, everyone who comes on here wants the best they can get for the least amount of money
There is no better dollar/value ratio than buying a used coin op…it’s a no-brainer really…someone is thinking of spending $900-$1200 on a new “Classic” or “Elite” but they can get a Grey Marble coin op for $500-$700…that is a “no-brainer”
If someone said they could get a Cyclone II for $450 (which for a Cyclone would be a really good price) but they could pick up a Brown Marble for $350-$450, a blond or Cherry for $400-$500, a Grey Marble for $500-$700….NO-BRAINER
The difference in quality between the home models, even the best of them like the Cyclone, is very very great…heaven forbid you compare the tables under the Cyclone with one piece bearings…I don’t care if they weight 225 lbs, there is more to quality than weight
Most people come on here wanting to spend $300-$600…you can find good used coin ops in that price range, so it is my responsibility as a UNBIASED student of the game, to influence these people to buy a coin op which they can get for $300-$600
And if one out of 10 people who come on here have a more “flexible” budget, then I still say coin op….as a matter of fact, the higher the budget the more sense it makes
The only person I can’t help is the one who can’t spend at least $350…if they want a $200 table, I say hold up there bucko, save your money for a couple of months and get a larger budget
there are other reasons for buying a coin op besides it’s a great value but those have been talked about many times and I won’t repeat them on this post
no way to justify buying something else…its simple math and it doesn’t take much to see the quality that is available
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BOLT...sorry to used such a harsh term and get you on the defensive..the Cyclone is not junk...its not nearly as good a table as a coin op...rods are different and the overall construction is better which is why the coin op weighs 125 lbs more than those other tables
I can't candy coat any table Tornado makes that has fixed bearings...its really not good or in one word, junk....of course that is relative...not junk like Walmart junk, junk compared to what they can buy for the same or nearly the same money...Walmart tables are "complete crap"...see the difference :P
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wayupnorth-
well you are right, it would be good not to rehash all this which is why I wrote this thread a year and a half ago
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=2704.msg12904
how much do you have to spend and how much is the freight on both these tables....I am asking because I am wondering if we could find another coin op for less (asking price)...shipping is a given variable right? so its about getting the best price you can
if those were the only two options for sure then I would go Cherry of course
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Hi, thanks again for the info.
I did read through the thread you wrote, but I had other more specific questions that weren't addressed. Of course, there's no way to address every iteration of every question, thus another thread is born to continue the debate. :)
I'll send you a PM about the table I am looking at.
Thanks!
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*sigh*
bbtuna,
If by defensive you mean my own opinion, guilty. I had hoped I could just let it go but alas I have not yet reached that level of maturity. Split bearings are better than one piece(a point we agree on). A coin-op tornado is top of the line(again like minded). I own a table with one piece bearings. Another table i play on regularly is a t-3000 coin-op(I originally learned to play on a brown marble coin-op). In no way am I implying the light home tables are the same as a coin-op.
With a little silicone the rods move smooth on the table I own. The playing surface is 3/4 inch and the men are the same as an older coin-op. The table dimensions are identical.The table I bought was 20 miles away and in excellent condition($400) with no shipping cost, comparable to Tornado Classic. I believe a used Coin-op in the same condition would have been ~$800 not that there have been any for sale in my area(VT).
You have yet to offer a specific reason you consider a snap in bearing junk as opposed to a cheaper alternative for home table. Your main argument appears to be "because I say so.." in a perfect world everyone would have a t-3000.
P.S. the cyclone does have the heavier rods.
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bolt, you said
"In no way am I implying the light home tables are the same as a coin-op." Okay, that is my point so the discussion is over...thanks for finally agreeing with me :P
one piece bearings the rod moves around too much and between that and the differnce in the rod itself, thinner walls and not heat treated, it impacts play...they also do not stop in the same place on the table surface...the rod/bearing doesn't handle a palm roll as well and with all these things and the relative flimsy build quality, the goal box make up, it makes that table junk...oh, and overall, a storm will NOT hold up to the same wear, or anything even close, that a coin op will...if a storm is worth $1 a pound, and coin op is worth $3 a pound...and in real life, I can get a coin op near $1 for $1 or worst case maybe $1 for $1.25...well worth the difference
as I said, we had a brown marble at our favorite bar that was purchased and placed in there brand new ... this table was in this bar for 15 years and suffered serious abuse by bar hacks that entire time...we came in once a week and cleaned it before we played and when it was switched out a year or so ago, it was still a good table...I storm wouldn't last a year in that bar...end of discussion
lets move on
if you like playing on the table, then more power to you but if I can get a coin op for the same or a little more, there should be no discussion...
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"... storm(II) wouldn't last a year in that bar..." a home is not a bar. My dining room table would probably not last too long in a bar but will last a lifetime at my home. As for the goal make up... you lost me on that one, the playing surface is absolutely solid. Flimsy is flat out mis-representation plain and simple. Should the need arise all wear parts are replaceable. I think maybe the home table you have used had been abused? My experience with this table is a bit more extensive.
Search for a coin-op in your price range......should that not look promising take a look at a home version and make up your own mind.
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the point is how much better a coin op is than a home model...there are two things to consider, one is playability and the other is durability
on durability a coin op is a 10, a Cyclone is a 7, and a Storm is a 4.5 and the cheapest tables you can get at Sears or Walmart are something like .5 ...so, if a person can get a 10 for the price of a 7 or 3.5 its simple math
on playability there are two parts-
Part 1 is what can be done on a table and in the case of Tornado, coin/Cyclone/Storm all shots and passes you can do on one table you can do on the other
Part 2 is how well can you do them or how easy can you do them...coin op is a 10, Cyclone is an 8, Storm is a 5, Twister is 3...its like buying a guitar...any guitar will allow you to play every note but they don't all play the same or sound the same...the reaction and tone are different...now a novice player may not see, feel, or understand all the differences but the differences are still there and it is factual to say one guitar is better than the other
so, regardless of how you are going to use the table, your plans or motives, it would ALWAYS be better to buy a better guitar for the same as you could buy a lesser guitar
see, you buy the table for home use but what if things change and you decide to play tournaments or someone in your family catches the fever…if you have the coin op, no change is needed…if you stay casual its no problem, you have a table that will literally last your entire lifetime with minimal care and if you decide to sell the table, the table will hold its value better and will have a wider audience to sell to…casual player, tournament player, bar owner/promoter…if you have a home model you have only the casual player
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bolt 115
...it seems like you know foosball tables!...considering this, you dont have to defend the storm vs a coin-op just because you own the storm. The players that are expierenced know the quality difference between the storm and coin-op and I think you do as well.
I think tuna is trying to illustrate "the best bang for your buck" for the new players that are looking for some help here in choosing the best table they can....which is a used coin-op!
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wayupnorth has two concerns that recieve very little attention in this discussion.
For reference I have a gray marble Tornado Coin op.
Concern 1 is if the table is beat up or not. Buying used anything can be a problem, particularly if you can't inspect it yourself. Speaking of Tornado or other quality coin-op any problem with rods or men or bearings can be fixed for a price. The cabinets hold up extrmely well unless abused. But they can be abused. I'm not talking about hard play, I'm talking about cigarette burns or kicked out coin slots. And it sounds like wayupnorth wants something that is boing to look really nice in the game room or wherever. Most later model used at home will qualify and many bar tables will to with just a little cleanup, but unless you can get someone independent to have a look I don't know how you can be assured.
It sounds like if wayupnorth avoids the metallic or "refridgerator" look in a Tornado which she does not want anyway, the "warped" playfield problem will be avoided.
Concern 2 is proper packing for shipping. Most used sellers just want you to pick it up. Finding the right table, good deal, good quality, AND good packing seems highly unlikely to me.
The only idea I have for wayupnorth in this vein is someone like Mary Moore selling a older model tournament table that she either has laying around or sells it for someone she knows that wants newer. She has boxes from new tables and some idea of proper packing. Her contact info from the other board is:
Mary Moore
IFP Pro Tour
ifpprotour@gmail.com
Web Site: www.ifptour.com
Course I have no idea if she has any time for this.
Any other ideas to combat these to issues?
Bill
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UNCLE!
patronizing, patronising [ˈpætrəˌnaɪzɪŋ]
adj
having a superior manner; condescending
patronizingly , patronisingly adv
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Tony from AK, I know you understand my concerns with our remoteness and shipping up here. Shipping Southern Alaska Forwarding out of Seattle is typically the most reasonable way of shipping up from the lower 48 and something we have done often. As you know, dealing with a table that has "issues" of any kind is so much more complicated up here. This is part of why I had hoped to buy new...if the table arrived with issues, a manufacturer or store is much more likely to resolve the problems than an individual. We are in Kodiak, btw.
Look at this eBay listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Valleys-Tornado-Coin-Operated-Foosball-Arcade-Game-/330504227847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf3964c07#shId
Do you think that $275 would include shipping to Alaska? It says shipping to the United States, but does that typically exclude Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and other US Territories? Depending on how much this table sells for, and if the seller is willing to ship wayupnorth then I would think this table could be had for a bargain! Those are a lot of assumptions though...
UNCLE!
patronizing, patronising [ˈpætrəˌnaɪzɪŋ]
adj
having a superior manner; condescending
patronizingly , patronisingly adv
In the most non-patronising/non-condenscending way...and having owned both a higher end home model and currently owning multiple coin-ops the more financially sound purchase would be a used coin-op over a new or used home model Tornado. This logic holds true even if the home model played EXACTLY like the coin-op, which in my opinion the coin-op has various levels of superior play depending on the home model version you are comparing it to. Then again, consider the source, this is coming from a newbie/hack like myself. If you have a table and like to play, then that's cool enough for me. Foos-On!
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What prompted me to respond here initialy was the premise that you can't play serious foosball on anything but a coin-op. I was sitting there thinking....I have a home table and I play pretty hard, both at home and on the t3000 in the pub. Now like everyone else an opinion based on personel experience is going to be pretty strong.
Now I can only speak about the foosball void I live in(VT) and I can't recall seeing a coin -op(tornado) even for sale. If I had read some post here at foosball.com prior to seeing my table on craigslist.com in all likelyhood I would have passed on it and foosball would still just be something I played 10 years ago.
Now if you can find a coin-op in the same condition and same price as a high end home model(i.e. in your budget) great. I tend to think that might not be the case in every location.
Happy Foosing
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bbtuna and John M, I see what you are saying. It helps to have the tables listed in a ranking from 1-10 based on their durability and quality. This is a nice way to illustrate the differences.
Thank you for addressing these issues for me BillV. I have sent a message to Mary Moore as you suggested.
jinhopark, I missed that listing. Typically, shipping prices would only go as far as Seattle. From there, it would be around $200 extra to get to us via barge from there.
bolt115, you make a valid point. A decent non-coin op table would be better than no table at all. Seeing that it is quite difficult to find a used coin-op in my location to my specifications (i.e. wood-grained, excellent condition, well-packaged for shipping, etc.), I could certainly see how I might be still looking for that mythical coin-op table years from now and missing out on many years of Fun Family Foosball with my kids. Definitely something to think about.
This is such a difficult decision. What it comes down to is: how long am I willing to wait for the "right" used coin-op table? And how much more effort do I want to put into stalking Craigslist and eBay and various other locations waiting for the "right" table to materialize? As bolt115 mentioned, if he had waited, it might have been years before he finally got a table - or maybe never if he finally got frustrated enough to give up on the hunt.
I was mulling this over with a friend this weekend. After much discussion, she made a point considering the following ifs/ands:
1) IF I couldn't find the "right" coin-op in a reasonable amount of time (which, in reality, may take a long time to locate in our location)
2) and IF I just went out and bought that higher end home model (which I could potentially order tomorrow)
3) and IF, after 10 or 15 years, we discovered that the home table simply was not holding up and, worst case, we couldn't resell it at all and just scrapped it
---> 4) then maybe we would decide that, if we'd gotten even just 10 or 15 years of fun and entertainment with our family out of the table, then we probably wouldn't care what we spent on it and that we couldn't recover any of our investment
Many of you have made very valid points on all the sides of this discussion. As so many of things in life are, this decision will end up being a compromise of some sort. Basically I have to decide if I'd rather have a decent table sooner and start enjoying foosball with my family now or wait for the "perfect" excellent table and risk missing out on some quality fun with my family while I wait.
I plan to give the "perfect" table a little more time to materialize, but, if it doesn't, I may just get that home model because it's available when I want it and A table is probably better than NO table.
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Just make sure you get a table that is worth replacing parts and the parts are readily available.
Shipping for parts would be $14.50 in a Priority flat rate box 12" x 12" x 5-1/2"
You could fit a lot of men, balls, pins, etc in a box that size.
For replacement bars, I used a 48" x 4" x 4" box as an example at 25 pounds (not sure how many bars that would be)
Priority Mail 3 Days $56.95
Parcel Post 12 Days $29.88
Really not bad prices (at least until they privatize)
The larger items would have to go freight. Can you get a bank loan? :)
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jinhopark, I missed that listing. Typically, shipping prices would only go as far as Seattle. From there, it would be around $200 extra to get to us via barge from there.
Well if you were the winner of that table for $360, and you would have paid the $275 to have it packaged and shipped...and even if you had to pay the $200 to barge it from Seattle to Alaski for $200...
That would have been $360 + $275 + $200 = $735...which isn't too bad considering your location. Heck what if you found out the guy would have shipped it to Alaska for the $275...there isn't anything in the listing that said it excludes Alaska and Hawaii (although I'm sure it probably is implied).
I say keep trolling eBay and Craigslist and find someone that will work with you on the shipping...BTW, do any coin-ops ever come up in Seattle or Portland that you can have barged up to where you live?
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Well, in about 2 weeks (when the shipment arrives) I will be the proud new owner of...<insert drum roll here> a used coin-op.
I had a line on a table that would work for me (given all my particular requirements) and finally broke down and just made the decision. It's in great condition from a reputable dealer already had new rods put on it; I paid a little extra to upgrade everything else, too (men, handles, etc.)
Crossing fingers. I'll update when it gets here! Thanks for all the help!
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Wayupnorth- YAY!! What cabinet color did you get??
Snake
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Wayupnorth- YAY!! What cabinet color did you get??
Snake
It's the mahogany with all the current upgrades. Just couldn't bring myself to do any of the marbled or fridge colored cabinets in my home. :)
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Way- Sweet!! I think you will like that table, You better have some strong fellas around to move it around!! That table goes about 355 lbs.
Snake
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wayupnorth super super good and within her limits (Alaska) and needs (wood siding)
she got a prime cherry, fully upgraded to T3000, 12 balls, spare men, bearing wrench, spare pins, pin driver, bumper, a couple wraps, and a brand new FoosLight shipped from east coast south to west coast north for $995 -
$995 Total Delivered
- $175 ish for upgrades
=$820
- $175 ish for shipping
=$645
- $140 FoosLight
=$505 Bottom Line for the table
WAYUP-please take pictures when you get it and let us all see the table you got, it will be fun
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Hope you have fun, be careful not to bend the hinges when you slide the top on the bottom cabinet. The top should close easliy when you lower it to the surface. So the first time you lower the top set it down gently, if it doesnt go flush something might not be lined up like the triangle shaped ball return ramps, that fit into 2 screw holes, they sit there they dont screw in. It will feel like your packing out Kodiak brown bear when you haul it into your house ha ha . The round feet on each leg will level the table. Put them all the way in and if your floor level your good to go. Otherwise 3 of them will have to be srewed out till level. Alaska has very few tornado,s up here, now your in a very elite group, probaly for decades to come!!