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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: Anderson on April 24, 2011, 04:38:36 PM
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This is exciting. Fireball is no longer a Tornado wannabe, which is great since I'm not a big Tornado fan. Congrats to Brad Laurine and the rest of the Fireball crew on this. This is a HUGE step forward in my opinion. Can't wait to get my hands on the new ball. I had been experimenting with every ball imaginable. I was told Warrior's ball might be best and was just looking around for one yesterday. Now I get this news. Take it from a Fireball owner. This is a great table. The ball was the only missing piece. Very excited and can't wait to play on the tour with this new ball.
http://www.fireballtablesoccer.com/joomla15/team-blog.html?start=1 (http://www.fireballtablesoccer.com/joomla15/team-blog.html?start=1)
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all i play with is the Warrior and Tornado balls..but mostly Warrior since thats the only table i got. but i did see the web site on the new Fireballs..kind of curios of how they will play..so i emailed debbie at the foosball shop, she said they will be in soon. when they do i know ill order me some. i can tell you this the Warrior balls are excellent in control..especially when brush passing, and stopping on the drop of the dime.....i keep hearing talk about the Fireball tables, tell me how good are they when compared to a Tornado. also how hard is it to get parts.
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As far as parts go, I guess at some point parts will be available at most foosball stores online. I've noticed a few things are now available here at foosball.com. I'm not going to blow any smoke and tell you that this table is better in quality than the new Tornado. The iceboxes are pretty sweet, if you play Tornado. Being a Bonzini player at heart, I enjoy the new Fireball because it's not a Tornado. It especially allows a backpin, but also a euro front pin if this ball really is what it says it is. I do hope the new ball still allows for the pulls and rollovers that all Tornado players love, since I'd like to see a melting pot of styles. Let me know where we can get the new ball when you find out. The only complaint I have about the table is the sides are curved to slightly to keep the ball from getting trapped on the side, something that the side strips on Tornado take care of. My understanding is that Fireball removed this. It effects passing if your trying to brush pass close to the wall. I'll order some warrior balls too when I order my "Fireballs", just to test and see. I really love the ITSF B-ball on Bonzini, but it has no grip on Fireball and is just too light, the rods having so much more momentum beyond Bonzini. Fireball is a quality table. I have the ITSF model. The table weight a ton so is very sturdy. The 4 way ball exchange is pretty cool for practice, assuming of course that Fireball has fixed the earlier issues of the ball sometimes getting stuck inside the goal mechanism. Keep in mind that I got my table during the try-and-see phase, used after one tournament in Atlanta.
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the only way ill get my hands on one is if they ever have a Fireball tournament here in the pacific on the Big island of Hawaii..thats where the last tournament was in 09 that was with Warrior. the next is in nov. with Tornado. i guess the only thing i dont care for just by looking at the table is the goofy looking men they could have been more creative..ahh.. but what can you do. if your looking to get Warrior balls email Christine at c.fuchs@warriorcustomgolf.com tell her Big Al sent you from Hawaii..also Debbie at debbie@foosball.com said that they might be getting some Fireballs sometime in june. she also got wraps, and other goodies.
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Hey Big Al, c'mon over to the Washington State Open the last week of May. That tournament is on Fireball and it is a good one! Check it out on nwfoosball.com .
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thanks for the invite!! i would fly up in a heartbeat!..but when you got 4 kids and a wife......well need i say more?..maybe i might see you and your buddys in nov. for the Tonado tournament at Waikaloa on the Big island...
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"Balls" said the Queen, "If I had a pair I would be King".
Now, that I have your attention.
Fireball indeed has a new ball.
http://www.fireballtablesoccer.com/joomla15/team-blog.html?start=1
This link contains the pictures and the explanation of what the ball is like.
Debbie :-* at Foosball.com will have these new balls available in early June.
Parts for the Fireball are also available. What Debbie doesn't have, I will have.
I will explain one thing about the parts. The parts business on a Fireball table suck. The men don't break. The Fireball men are setting a new standard for durability. Jim at Foosball . com gave me hell because I couldn't get a man replaced that finally broke on a 8 to 9 year old table.
That kind of lasting power is unheard of by T standards.
So, lets see... Rods don't bend, fastest rods on the planet, men don't break, bearings don't wear down, rods, men and handles can go in and out super easy, steady as a rock leg design and the feet on those legs are vastly superior.
Granted the T table is the leader. The T table is built like a tank and it plays well, but it does play as well as the Fireball.
Looking forward to more comments.
Thanks, Brad
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Well Brad, now that we've got a ball coming to us, I want to add that the NUMBER ONE REASON I bought a Fireball was the three piece bearing and the ability to exchange a rod without removing the men. I literally can change from a Fireball rod to a Tornado rod in LESS than 30 seconds, so if I want to practice for a Tornado tourny, I can do so without having to own one. Don't get me wrong, can't wait to get my game ready for a Fireball tourny, but I've been playing Bonzini(Rene Pierre) for 15 years, yet I wanted a table where I could work on different styles of play, and at a price I could afford. I still want a Bonzini, and I will have one someday, but I found and posted a picture here a while back of a Fireball with rods from different tables installed, including a Bonzini rod. HOW DO I GET MY HANDS ON THAT SET OF BEARINGS? I realize I'd have to get the rod and men through Bonzini, but to have a Bonzini 3-rod to practice would be amazing, although you couldn't ever get the same feel of table surface. Still, as a hobbyist, I think it's amazing to have friends come over and have a choice of rod to play with. It gives new meaning to the word multitable. This is one thing that NO OTHER TABLE HAS!!!! I hope that Fireball can find a way to market this further. Good luck to all of you at Fireball. I cannot thank you enough for providing new blood, strong new blood, into the foosball arena. For the record, I currently have, aside from my Fireball rods, a Tornado 3-rod, a TS 5-rod and 3-rod, all cut to length for my fireball. I also have a telescoping Garlando goalie rod(meant to order a 3-rod but it was my error so I kept it) and I found a way to fit it on the table. It would be nice to have appropriate bearings. PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN. Thanks!
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...Rods don't bend, fastest rods on the planet...
Looking forward to more comments.
Thanks, Brad
Brad:
Can you tell me if the Fireball rods have the same dimensions and specifications as Tornado rods? I bet all those guys that are on the hunt for the elusive "Merkel rods" would be interested in knowing there is a better alternative out there for them.
I also am a fan of the Fireball handles, so I'd be curious to know of these handles will fit on a Tornado rod.
Thanks!
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The Fireball rods are the same diameter(essentially) since I have a Tornado 3-rod for my Fireball, but I had to cut it to length which means the Tornado rods are longer. Fireball rods are designed so that the lengths are just that when you remove the three-piece bearing, the bumper fits in the hole so that the rod will clear(come out) from the far side. After that, the rod can be completely removed because the hole is big enough to fit the handle through. It's genius really.
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Anderson:
Crud so it sounds like the Fireball rods are shorter than the Tornado rods, so they probably won't fit the Tornado tables then...
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im in the business of breaking men...i swear i must order new men every other month..if the Fireball men are that strong then who gives a monkeys uncle how ugly they look!..guess i could get use to it.
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Fireball rod is slightly shorter about a 1/4 inch. I have never tried to put one on the Tornado table. However, I just happen to be going over to China on Friday and I will bet I can have a bunch of rods made to fit the T table. I don't have to have them made in black. They will weight about the same and have the holes drilled to match the T rod (they might already be correct).
The Handle for the Fireball will fit the T rod and vice-a-verse.
Tonight, I will look at this as a real option for T rod replacements.
Brad
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Jinho, actually they might fit, but most likely the edge of the rod actually disappears into the hole, but not all the way through and out, when fully extended to deadbar pull.
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With the ball being "t-sip orange" color I will be eager to beat the hell out of it. Gig'em.
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Fireball rod is slightly shorter about a 1/4 inch. I have never tried to put one on the Tornado table. However, I just happen to be going over to China on Friday and I will bet I can have a bunch of rods made to fit the T table. I don't have to have them made in black. They will weight about the same and have the holes drilled to match the T rod (they might already be correct).
The Handle for the Fireball will fit the T rod and vice-a-verse.
Tonight, I will look at this as a real option for T rod replacements.
Brad
Brad:
If all you did was make Tornado 2-rod replacements I'm sure you can sell quite a bit. I'd replace all my rods on both my tables with your "undestructable" Fireball rods, provided they were reasonably priced. Not sure how many Tornado tables are out there, but I'm sure 1/2 the tables in service have a bent 2-rod or 3-rod or...although far more infrequent, I've seen Merkel rods with a nice curve to them.
You could market these as rod "upgrades" and offer them in black and chrome... I definitely see a potential to sell these rods and the handles to all the Tornado fans out there.
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I just happen to be going over to China on Friday and I will bet I can have a bunch of rods made to fit the T table.
Brad:
I would be very interested in getting new rods. I'm a special case, because I'm located in Wellington, New Zealand and the shipping costs of new rods from the U.S. is a killer for me. Could you find out if there is an economical way to ship these Fireball type T rods from China to Wellington? You can contact me directly if needed on alex[dot]koudrin[at]gmail[dot]com
Also, how indestructable are these rods exactly? Are they supposed to be better than Merkel everyone dreams about?
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Also, how indestructable are these rods exactly? Are they supposed to be better than Merkel everyone dreams about?
AK, have you done the minimum on your part... to go to fireball's website and check the promo video?
That may help a lot, just from that...
; Just a suggezt... unless they've taken all these promo pics and vids off...
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AK, have you done the minimum on your part... to go to fireball's website and check the promo video?
You're right. I'll take a look at the videos at home. However, self promotional statements and videos may not always provide an unbiased comparison. I was just interested if someone tested this independently here?
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Akoudrin,
Alex...
Check out the you tube video that Ron Olson did last year (low quality video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161Ja6Q7zEY
At the 1:30 sec mark, Ron and Dennis goes over the rods and the strength. I would only guess that a current Tornado rod would bend like a noodle and stay bent if you were to hang off the three rod like Dennis does. 80 kilos is near 175. Tony stood on this very same table and it's rods a few months before at 87 Kilos.
I spoke 2 nights ago to Dennis about selling replacement rods. Right now the Fireball rod would work except they are slightly larger in diameter. The length and holes are correct (1/4 shorter) but with the diameter too large it won't work. That is not completely true, you have to ream the T men to fit by 0.009". I have a OEM mic and that is the difference.
When I go to China on Friday, Dennis and I will make plans on setting up the rods.
Sorry, I am not a good source for unbiased information. Ron Olsen is unbiased and gravity hasn't changed in the last 2 years. LOL
Merkel rods are awesome. They don't stay bent either unless you put sustained weight to them over 65 kilos and at the end of the bar. Again, self promoting bias information but I know because I am a PRO player that just happens to be involved with manufacturing Foosball tables.
Understand my statements come from two places. First, I am a player of the game, I play on Tornado and Fireball. Second, I was involved for many years behind the scenes with Tornado. Dennis needed help and I jumped at the chance to be involve with the team. I know it is a better playing table for all skill level of players.
Thanks, Brad Laurine
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AK..
Uhhh... yeah..... what he said... ↑
;P
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Cool. I took at the video and the rods look promising.
As a general wondering/suggestion/nice to have....
It would be nice to get several types of rods in a more scientific experiment, recording all the measurements. For example, if you get the original T rod, Merkel rod, current heat-treated T rod, and the Fireball rod (probably looking at the longest - 2 men rod) and put them between two stacks of bricks. You then start putting 20 kgs, 30 kgs, etc on each rod recording precisely how much each rod bends and whether it bends back or stays that way. This way you can precisely show measurement of how much better each rod compared to others in a clear and scientific way!
Also, rod surface/coating tests would be nice. For example, you could set up a test where the rods are severely scratched and have some measure to say they are still playable after a certain amount of scratches.
Without these facts, people tend to discuss vague terms such as a Merkel rod not being bent after 2 years in a bar. This could mean many things. Granted, it generally indicates that Merkels are stronger, but it doesn't indicate by how much. Also people talk about a tougher rod surface, but it isn't backed up by solid facts or experiment results.
The same thing could be done about any component of each table including the table frame itself. In general it would be nice to have a website or study that compared all major ITSF approved tables in an unbiased scientific way in terms of dimensions and quality of each component as well as playability, of course! Just as you read comparisons of computer components on say, tomshardware, before you buy those components, the same could be done for foosball!
Please not that I'm definitely not criticizing or disputing any claims above. But I think many would agree that comparing and discussing facts is much fairer avoiding many arguments and questions. This would make decision making about tables and parts many fold easier.
Heh, if I was located in US I could probably embark on something like that, but as it stands it took me over a year to get an old Brown Marble with all its rods rusted and replaced by stainless steel non-hollow ones.
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Cool. I took at the video and the rods look promising.
As a general wondering/suggestion/nice to have....
It would be nice to get several types of rods in a more scientific experiment, recording all the measurements. For example, if you get the original T rod, Merkel rod, current heat-treated T rod, and the Fireball rod (probably looking at the longest - 2 men rod) and put them between two stacks of bricks. You then start putting 20 kgs, 30 kgs, etc on each rod recording precisely how much each rod bends and whether it bends back or stays that way. This way you can precisely show measurement of how much better each rod compared to others in a clear and scientific way!
Also, rod surface/coating tests would be nice. For example, you could set up a test where the rods are severely scratched and have some measure to say they are still playable after a certain amount of scratches.
Without these facts, people tend to discuss vague terms such as a Merkel rod not being bent after 2 years in a bar. This could mean many things. Granted, it generally indicates that Merkels are stronger, but it doesn't indicate by how much. Also people talk about a tougher rod surface, but it isn't backed up by solid facts or experiment results.
The same thing could be done about any component of each table including the table frame itself. In general it would be nice to have a website or study that compared all major ITSF approved tables in an unbiased scientific way in terms of dimensions and quality of each component as well as playability, of course! Just as you read comparisons of computer components on say, tomshardware, before you buy those components, the same could be done for foosball!
Please not that I'm definitely not criticizing or disputing any claims above. But I think many would agree that comparing and discussing facts is much fairer avoiding many arguments and questions. This would make decision making about tables and parts many fold easier.
Heh, if I was located in US I could probably embark on something like that, but as it stands it took me over a year to get an old Brown Marble with all its rods rusted and replaced by stainless steel non-hollow ones.
"...the rods look promising" is an understatement.
No one is going to do that type of testing, especially when it can just be summed up as:
Fireball rods > Merkel rods > heat treated rods > and then every other rod out there.
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Ak,
Well written letter.
Nicely thought out.
Even if the test were done and met certain scientific parameters, I have the feeling it could be met with skepticism. Any Company would be viewed with a bias, that preformed the test. I would also think a Company would be the only one that would want to release the information if it showed that they were superior. Independent analysis is nice.
I will give to anyone that wants to do this test, a 2 bar. You pay for the freight and I will cough up the 2 bar for testing.
I will be gone to China and I can't get on this board (China rules, not mine) to see what is happening after Friday.
Later, Brad
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Ak,
Well written letter.
Nicely thought out.
Even if the test were done and met certain scientific parameters, I have the feeling it could be met with skepticism. Any Company would be viewed with a bias, that preformed the test. I would also think a Company would be the only one that would want to release the information if it showed that they were superior. Independent analysis is nice.
I will give to anyone that wants to do this test, a 2 bar. You pay for the freight and I will cough up the 2 bar for testing.
I will be gone to China and I can't get on this board (China rules, not mine) to see what is happening after Friday.
Later, Brad
Brad:
I call dibbs on the first batch of Fireball rod with Tornado rod specs...lol!
Have a prosperous/fun/safe trip out to China!
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JI:
No one is going to do that type of testing, especially when it can just be summed up as:
Fireball rods > Merkel rods > heat treated rods > and then every other rod out there.
One, how do I know what you've written is true. Two, as I said, exactly the same thing is being done computer parts on tomshardware and many other sites. Three, yes, you're probably right about the summary of it, but my point is that it's haresay. Also, better (">") could mean 1% stronger or 50% stronger. So what I'm saying is it could turn out that current heat-treated rods are only 15% weaker than Fireball rods. In that case it immediately becomes less vital in obtaining them. However, if they are 50%+ stronger that makes an extremely appealing case for getting Fireball rods! See what I mean?
Anyone can compare these three rods only (Fireball, Merkel & Heat-treated). Set them up so you can put weights on them easilty. One way is to hang a bucket with a load of bricks and make measurements on how the rod bends in the middle and whether it remains bent. Record measurements and photos. Then post here on the forum. Easy!
Of course, the biggest obstacle to performing this experiment is sourcing and sacrificing these rods. It could be difficult with Merkels as they are not manufactured anymore. At the very least heat-treated vs Fireball should be done. If anyone sends me those two rods to Wellington, New Zealand, I'd be more than happy to perform the experiment for us :)
In the general sense of comparing parts/tables etc. It could be done either by an enthusiast of which I'm sure there are many out there. It could also be done as a business, but a good business model needs to be thought out and I can't immediately think of a good one right now.
BRAD:
Independent analysis is nice.
Yep, it has to be independent, of course!
Good luck in China. Let us know what the outcome is.
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You don't have to trust/believe anything I say as these are just my personal observations. I will say I have replaced my fair share of 2 man rods (heat treated and not heat treated), and I have a bent 2 man Merkel rod. I've never seen a bent Fireball rod, no matter what abuse it has seen.
Donated rods can be looked upon as being biased as well...thus the reason why a popular magazine here in the US, Consumer Reports, does not accept advertising dollars nor do they accept donated items for testing. They make it a point to say they purchase all their items "off the shelf" just as any consumer would Vs. being given a test version, which unscrupulous manufacturers may make slightly more robust for favorable testing results.
There are also other things to test...smoothness of rod for less bearing friction and scratch/corrosion resistance...no sense in having a table that can last 20 years and then have the rods rust out and to become useless in 10.
Again, as far as I know Merkel is not making any more of his rods so it really may be a choice between a Fireball rod or a Tornado Chinese heat-treated rod...again, this is just my opinion...but I would take the Fireball rod over the current Tornado Chinese heat-treated rod.
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BTW, a good way to keep your bars straight is to keep Ryan Moore off your table:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Foosball-Master-Tour/93081882609?ref=ts#!/photo.php?fbid=1113066261155&set=a.1020526267713.4153.1061873646&type=1&theater
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Yeah, fair enough. I think the general consensus is that Fireball has the best current rods by a mile. We'll just have to wait and see when/if they start making them for Tornado. If they make the cost below T-rods then it will be a no brainer! I'm certainly in and keen :)