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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: VRViperII on February 26, 2006, 08:05:53 PM
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Hey, right now I can do the basic snake shot at a relatively comfortable level. By standard I mean simply either pushing or pulling it to the far ends then shooting straight.
Now I want to learn how to cut using snake. Is this possible?
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l @ l
l l
l @ l
l_______________________l @ = defending player
For example, when people block like that, I want to pin the ball in the centre, then strafe left and cut the ball right in between the two defenders. Any tips on how to do that? How much pressure do I apply on the ball while moving it sideways, and how much do I have to move compared to straight shots, etc.
Thanks.
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Hey, right now I can do the basic snake shot at a relatively comfortable level. By standard I mean simply either pushing or pulling it to the far ends then shooting straight.
Now I want to learn how to cut using snake. Is this possible?
It's possible but very low-percentage, the top players won't do it except as a gimmick shot in pickup games. You're better off working on the corners and straight, then working on the short holes where you just move halfway out to one side or the other.
To execute the cut, you want to just slightly slow down your lateral motion so that the ball is like a half a ball width behind the man when you hit it. With tons and tons of practice you might get to like 80% execution with it, which still isn't good enough to use seriously unless you're just getting shut down with your other options. You'd be better off spending the time improving the other options and/or learning a new takeoff to use with them (if you normally rock, practice a tap setup or practice throwing in additional fast hitches/fakes on the rock and still shooting your normal options).
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the thing is, I usually play only with the same friends, and they know me quite well. So whenever I shoot, they just block the corners. I've faked strafing then shooting straight before, but I dont want to rely on mind games too much.
Also I seem to get raced when I shoot at the corners. That is when I shoot the defender blocks it. I am sure that they did not move before and they reacted instead of guessing when I'm shooting.
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So whenever I shoot, they just block the corners.
You need to shoot the short holes--in additions to nailing the long push and pull, you should be hitting the short push and pull as well.
That's something the top players _do_ use consistently.
Also I seem to get raced when I shoot at the corners. That is when I shoot the defender blocks it. I am sure that they did not move before and they reacted instead of guessing when I'm shooting.
In all likelihood your takeoff isn't smooth, either you rock faster/farther before the shot or you hitch your motion indicating when the shot is happening. Work on trying to have the smoothest takeoff possible.
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I have to shoot long because their "basic" defence (that is their defence when I have the ball pinned) blocks the short shots on both sides. Unless you mean I shoot short and hope they will move out of the way.
What do you mean by smooth takeoff? Shouldn't I be aiming for a sudden takeoff to catch my opponent by surprise?
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I have to shoot long because their "basic" defence (that is their defence when I have the ball pinned) blocks the short shots on both sides. Unless you mean I shoot short and hope they will move out of the way
If their basic defense isn't on the long, and they're blocking your long shots, then either:
1) Your shot is too slow laterally or;
2) your takeoff isn't smooth (which is more likely).
But smooth, I mean there are no telegraphs that you are about to shoot. If you're sitting rocking the ball reading the goal, and then you "rev up" with a faser rock or a wider rock before you shoot, that's not smooth (and it's a major "tell" that helps the defense). Even worse is if you normally rock on the center of the ball but you "wind up" slightly off-center before shooting (e.g. if you're going to shoot push side, you move you man to be slightly off-center toward you to give you more ball to work with on the shot).
It's especially bad if your rock or other part of your takeoff tips them off as to whether you're about to go push side or pull side--you need to have identical takeoffs for those, and for the straight as well.
These are extremely common tells, and something like this is probably going on. The best way to correct them is to work with a friend and have him explain when you're telling; next best is video.
It can be very hard to recognize yourself that you're doing them because you don't have the defender's viewpoint.
If none of the above is the problem, you're too slow. But that's unlikely to be the main problem.
But you really need to get your shot to the level where there's no way they can sit in the middle and race you out to the corners when you shoot. If you're raceable, good goalies will shut you down. Improving your takeoff makes it a lot harder to race you.
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thanks for the reply.
i think my take off is smooth. I don't actually decide to push or pull myself until a split second before a shoot, i.e. even I don't know where to shoot right after I pin the ball.
the reason why I want to learn snake is because I can't move my men fast, so I can hardly do push kicks or pull kicks effectively. Does snake require even faster hands? I always thought that defending the snake means reacting, unlike defending other shots.
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thanks for the reply.
i think my take off is smooth. I don't actually decide to push or pull myself until a split second before a shoot, i.e. even I don't know where to shoot right after I pin the ball.
The problem is often that when you do go to shoot push side, you'll often "rev it up" unconsciously by rocking slightly faster or farther toward yourself (and vice-versa). Or maybe you just rock faster before the push than the pull (for that one last rock only). You really need someone who is a good goalie and picks up tells well to let you know if it's happening, because it's almost impossible to see it when you're doing it yourself.
the reason why I want to learn snake is because I can't move my men fast, so I can hardly do push kicks or pull kicks effectively. Does snake require even faster hands? I always thought that defending the snake means reacting, unlike defending other shots.
Almost nobody does effective push-kicks or pull-kicks. There are a few, but mainly it's straight pulls. For someone with slow hands, the snake is probably the best shot choice.
Defending the snake is generally less reacting than defending other shots--because it can go either direction, those "really quick handed racers" who can block moderately decent pulls just with reactions are often inept against even a mediocre snake. If you're telegraphing on the takeoff, though, then reactive defenses become more effective.
The other thing that makes reactive defenses more effective is if you're just too slow laterally, in which case you have to work on lateral speed.
Against any _good_ shot (pull, snake, or otherwise) a purely reactive defense becomes low-percentage, you have to play a more forcing defense and then react after you've helped dictate the shot.
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I agree, apparently your shot is slow laterally from what I am reading. I would not practice the cut at all... A variant o fthe rollover that I would practice is a push or pull to the one or three man on the 3 rod, this shot can produce a nice cut if you are aiming for the 1 or 5 hole. My push rollover is unracable and is very smooth ;D Nothin but a "POP!!!"
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I agree, apparently your shot is slow laterally from what I am reading. I would not practice the cut at all... A variant o fthe rollover that I would practice is a push or pull to the one or three man on the 3 rod, this shot can produce a nice cut if you are aiming for the 1 or 5 hole. My push rollover is unracable and is very smooth ;D Nothin but a "POP!!!"
what's the 1 and 5 hole?
so... move the ball laterally to the left, then cut it right using my furthest man?
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Hypothetically there are 5 lanes into the box, or 5 holes you can shoot straight into. Defense can cover only two, almost three of these hole at any given time. Numbered from an offensive standpoint closest to you is hole 1, the furthest hole is hole 5. 1 and 5 are also known as the "deadman holes". If you shoot snake and you pin on the middle dot, you will fire into holes 4 and 5 with the push and holes 2 and 1 with the pull normally. To your reply, yes... move the ball laterally north or south with the middle man, recoil and hit it in with the 1 or 3 man. The recoil and the speed you have to use to execute this shot will cause a cut in the direction of the recoil. it's basically a push or pull kick from the front pin postion. I use it as a change-up and to get some respect on the 1 hole, because my pull is my weak side.
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Hypothetically there are 5 lanes into the box, or 5 holes you can shoot straight into. Defense can cover only two, almost three of these hole at any given time. Numbered from an offensive standpoint closest to you is hole 1, the furthest hole is hole 5.
This is the right idea but backwards from how I've always heard it--1 hole is the far hole, the straight option on the pull shot. 3 is the middle of the goal, straight on a rollover. For a rollover, 1 is long push, 5 is long pull, 2 is short push, 4 is short pull.
I wouldn't recommend the "snake-kick" shot you're talking about (where you hit the ball with the outside men on the 3-rod) except as a funsy gimmick shot or a desperation move if you're getting shut down. Concentrate on good execution of your snake and learning real options for it (square and spray push/pull to the 1/5 holes, and square push/pull to the 2/4 holes, and straight). If you're looking to add more options, try rocking and still setups or walking the ball a la Spredeman, Pappas, etc.
But you're really best off with just the basic (parenthesized) options and trying to make them fast and smooth. Watch Terry Moore, Rob Mares, Trevor Park, Steve Mohs, etc to see how effective it can be--the less gimmicky the shot and the more it all looks alike, the harder it is for the defense to know what you're going to do.
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well my friend right now purposedly bait me now haha. Let's say 1 is the hole closest to me and 5 is the furthest from me. He would place his men at 3 and 4, obviously baiting me to shoot 1. Should I take it? Or should I head for the 5 even though it's much harder to aim it. If I take it purposedly it would be a race then.
When I pinned the ball, I sometimes lift my man above the ball a little bit, strafe left and strafe back mid then shoot. Is that actually useful? When people react, they sometimes get juked by my man and they don't really look at the ball
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i am just a rookie myself...but i think it is best to rock the ball....long, smooth, rocks....move the full length of the ball...i think that it is the best way to learn it, and shoot it... make the shot smooth too....i find it easyer to hit the ball hard when i dont try to hit the ball hard...and work on going both ways equally good...you are much more dangerus if they have to cover the whole goal then just bait you for one side....you dont have to shoot deadbar just choose your wholes well, take your time...(like 10 sec and count it out in your head) this allows you to get a good feel for the ball...not even the PM's (Billy) shoot deadbar.. Have fun and enjoy.....
Chase Pennell
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hello it been a few years what is a snake shot ? is that a push pull our vice versa ???
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not easy to explain... think of a front pin shot (the ball is pinned forward) from the center of the goal..where the ball is shot and moved from the wrist... the rule is that the rod can not spin 360 before or after striking the ball.. so you can "spin"(controlled spin) the rod from your wrist to your hand going push or pull.....
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hello it been a few years what is a snake shot ? is that a push pull our vice versa ???
Pin the ball in front of the man. Now, put your wrist on the handle and lift your arm quickly so that the man spins up around and hits the ball straight in from behind. That's the straight option on the snake (aka rollover, wrist-rocket, monkey, etc).
Now work on moving the ball away from you or toward you while executing the rollover. Top shooters can go around a deadbar in either direction, making it a very fast, hard shot that can be moved in either the push or pull direction from the setup point.
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well my friend right now purposedly bait me now haha. Let's say 1 is the hole closest to me and 5 is the furthest from me. He would place his men at 3 and 4, obviously baiting me to shoot 1. Should I take it? Or should I head for the 5 even though it's much harder to aim it. If I take it purposedly it would be a race then.
You should be able to shoot the 1 if they're leaving it like that. If not, like I said, your shot is too slow laterally and/or you do not have a smooth takeoff (you're telegraphing when/where you're going to shoot). Those problems need to be corrected to get a top tournament-level shot.
When I pinned the ball, I sometimes lift my man above the ball a little bit, strafe left and strafe back mid then shoot. Is that actually useful? When people react, they sometimes get juked by my man and they don't really look at the ball
Anything that puts the ball in the goal is useful in some sense. You won't see this kind of "man fake" much at high levels because it's not too effective against top goalies--you'll see more walking the ball, tapping it quickly to draw reactions from the defense, or extended rocks/ball fakes.
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still working on the snake now. recently one thing that keeps happening to me though is that the ball goes too slow. I am rolling up my arms at full speed already, but the ball goes in the goal quite slow. The ball travels straight into the corners though so I don't think it's a matter of hitting the ball in the centre. The only logical explanation I can think of is that when I strafe the ball sideways, the ball slips further from my man so when my man kicks, it only tips the ball in the centre. How do I correct this?
Also, I can NEVER strafe the ball sideways a little bit and then repin it. I am trying to learn walking the snake very little, but the ball keeps slipping out. Any tips on that?
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Practice a full rock....rock on the ball the full motion of the ball..the lateral speed comes with time and practice...the rock helps with that speed....walking the ball comes later...because you need to becable to move and rock the ball aroundb4 you can walk it...(i think)
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well I can rock the ball easily, assuming by rock you mean you moving sideways with the guy always pinned
just that when I pin the ball it's not at the centre sometimes so I want to "walk" it a little bit to move to the side, it usually fails tho =/
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well my opponents are making it more difficult now to get the snake in, this is how they mainly defend.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6033/jitz6qg.jpg
I'm in red, with the black ball pinned, and they defend the 5 holes with their defenders (shown as blue blocks).
I cannot shoot straight because the gap is not big enough to fit the ball in. If I do strafe the ball left or right to shoot oles 1 or 5, they will have a major distance advantage (almost a full man), making this "race" very hard to win.
The ideal solution to this form of defence I think is probably strafing the ball left to around hole 2 and cutting it right to around hole 4, in between the two guys. Can someone give advice on how to do that? How much should I move the ball? Do I apply less pressure on the ball while strafing? Or maybe I should do another kind of snake instead?
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well my opponents are making it more difficult now to get the snake in, this is how they mainly defend.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6033/jitz6qg.jpg
I'm in red, with the black ball pinned, and they defend the 5 holes with their defenders (shown as blue blocks).
I cannot shoot straight because the gap is not big enough to fit the ball in. If I do strafe the ball left or right to shoot oles 1 or 5, they will have a major distance advantage (almost a full man), making this "race" very hard to win.
The ideal solution to this form of defence I think is probably strafing the ball left to around hole 2 and cutting it right to around hole 4, in between the two guys. Can someone give advice on how to do that? How much should I move the ball? Do I apply less pressure on the ball while strafing? Or maybe I should do another kind of snake instead?
Most tournament players will either spray it to hole 1 or come out around the lead man and square it to hole 5. The only real alternative would be going out long and squaring it to hole 1, which is fine too.
Either should be easy to do if they're playing a stationary race. If not, your shot is too slow or you're telegraphing (or you don't have long enough squares, but you can usually work with that by reading the defense and using the spray/straight options well).
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hmm by spray it, do you mean cutting it left into lane 1 without moving the ball sideways?
hitting the corners just seem hard, since from the diagram I need to move almost 2 full lanes, while the defender only needs to move around half a lane to block my shot (his man doesno't need to totally block the shot, just a small part of his man needs to touch the ball)
i just hate it when they leave ALMOST a ball width in middle, that leaves hitting the corners so hard
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You need more practice... For example set up the ball in front of the hole five and try to shoot hole 1... I would't practice cutting the snake. Once you can move all the way from one side of the goal to another, practice that and try to achieve the smoothest takeoff possible..
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I agree...Practice your shot...with time it gets faster...to the point where they can not "race" you to the hole that you shoot... practice makes perfect...it is a very old saying but it is the truth...
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hmm by spray it, do you mean cutting it left into lane 1 without moving the ball sideways?
A spray is when you don't square the ball off but let it keep moving in the direction of the shot. E.g. move the ball to lane 2 and shoot it without recoil, so you shoot at lane 2 and the ball continues out to lane 1.
It is _not_ a stationary angle shot without moving the ball at all. The simplest way to see spray is to set up a pull shot on the 2-rod, pull it toward yourself and hit the ball medium speed forward. Notice that the ball continues moving toward you as it heads down the field. That's "spray".
hitting the corners just seem hard, since from the diagram I need to move almost 2 full lanes, while the defender only needs to move around half a lane to block my shot (his man doesno't need to totally block the shot, just a small part of his man needs to touch the ball)
But unless you're telegraphing, he doesn't know when you're going to shoot so you have a head start. Lots of people have only medium-long sprays to both sides and a good straight, as long as they're very fast and can read the defense well they can score on good goalies.
If the goalie is actually able to consistently react to your shot (ie see where you're going and move over to block it) then your shot is way too slow. You need at least one option other than straight to be unraceable on the snake, and you need to make sure you aren't telegraphing when you're going to shoot (giving the defense a chance to react before the shot starts).
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Yea I know I'm slow at shooting, that's why I suck at all the other shots (push kick, pull kick, pull shot, etc...) and that's why I am trying to learn snake. It seems that I need to quicken my shot so that my shooting speed is faster than their reaction time I guess.
On the contrary I can move sideways very well. Most of the shots that I shoot and miss the goal, is because I hit the goal posts (i.e. due to moving too much before shooting).
A spray is when you don't square the ball off but let it keep moving in the direction of the shot. E.g. move the ball to lane 2 and shoot it without recoil, so you shoot at lane 2 and the ball continues out to lane 1.
I still don't get what spraying means. What do you mean by "shooting without recoil"? I heard that for snaking there should be a "whip like action". For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting. Is this what you mean? You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?
I've also played some "active" goalies who like to move around a lot. From the diagram, they "shake" the left guy on the borderline of lanes 1 and 2 and shake the right guy on the borderline of lanes 4 and 5. They do this quite randomly, so it's almost impossible to tell when he's gonna go there. They do it without leaving the middle open for more than 0.1 seconds.
It is _not_ a stationary angle shot without moving the ball at all.
Would that shot actually be useful? I've got it in once before (not by fluke, it was a very legit shot). I'm not planning to use this all the time, but some defenders like to put their forward defence man in the "toes back head front" position, and this leaves me a good enough angle to simply cut the opposite way. In the diagram I would cut to lane 1.
I am still trying to figure out the appropriate pressure that I should put on the ball before I strafe it. Too much pressure seems to put the ball away from the goalie when I strafe it and too little seems to give the ball to the defenceman.
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i try not to put alot of pressure on it..i use very little.. and try and "throw" the ball to the hole that i want to shoot
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I still don't get what spraying means. What do you mean by "shooting without recoil"? I heard that for snaking there should be a "whip like action". For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting. Is this what you mean? You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?
Cut and spray are different, but both of them cause the ball to move at an angle. There's also a third common way of controlling angle, called recoil (recoil is essentially the same as the "brush" used in brush passing).
Cut (also called chip, especially in passing--e.g. "chip passing") is when you hit the edge of the ball with the corner of the man. Bank shots are often hit this way. A stationary ball will move at an angle if you cut or chip it, and you can cut a ball in either direction (away from you or toward you) no matter which way the ball is moving.
You can hit a chip/cut shot with a stationary rod that is only swinging at the ball and not moving toward/away from you (just line it up so the corner of the man hits the ball and swing straight).
Recoil or brush is when the face of the man moves across the top of the ball--the corner of the man never hits the ball, it's all about the friction between the man's face and the ball. Like cut/chip, recoil can move the ball in either direction (away from you or toward you).
You cannot hit a recoil or brush shot without moving the rod in the direction of the recoil/brush.
Spray is simply the momentum of the ball--the ball must already be moving laterally before you hit it in order for it to spray. And you can _only_ spray in the direction that the ball is moving. Indeed, since spray is simply the ongoing momentum of the ball you don't have to do anything to make it spray.
In fact, any shot that you move sideways will automatically have spray on it unless you apply brush/recoil to counteract that motion. This is why newbie pull shooters have trouble shooting against a reverse defense, and why most new goalies who shoot a pull only shoot options that angle toward themselves (either sharply or more shallow angles).
For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting
On a snake, the recoil does in fact come by moving the rod back toward (or even past) the center; if you shoot a square shot to the 1-hole, you recoil back to the 2- or 3- hole during the shot to make it square off instead of continuing to angle out. You'll see a similar motion on a good pull shooter, who will move the fod back away from themselves when they're squaring off the shot.
You can also lessen the angle of spray by hitting the ball harder and/or moving it slower laterally. The faster you're moving the ball laterally, the harder it is to square off that lateral motion. The harder you hit it, the less it'll spray.
NOW, mastering recoil is really the key to good square options. But recoil is not always good. A long, square pull is slightly slower to the long hole than a pull that comes 2/3 of the way across and sprays the remaining distance. Many shooters will pick whether to spray or square based on the defense they're facing.
The snake is no different. You certainly need long square shots. But if you're being raced, using spray effectively can speed you up to the corners. IOW, if you're shooting toward the goalie hole (as opposed to the hole the 2-rod is blocking) then you may shoot a spray shot instead of a square to beat him a bit faster.
One final thought on chip/recoil/spray.
Chip shot can get the most extreme angles on shots, but it's nearly impossible to hit consistently. Look at how few pros use chip passing or cut shots up front, or even bank shots--it's not too hard to get to where you can execute it well 80% of the time, but that means you're cutting down your effective possessions by 1/5.
Brush/recoil is perhaps _the_ single most important skill to master to get really good at foosball. It affects passing, shooting, and you need to know about it for defense to be effective.
I've also played some "active" goalies who like to move around a lot. From the diagram, they "shake" the left guy on the borderline of lanes 1 and 2 and shake the right guy on the borderline of lanes 4 and 5. They do this quite randomly, so it's almost impossible to tell when he's gonna go there. They do it without leaving the middle open for more than 0.1 seconds.
This is what good goalies do: they make you have to guess where the hole is and execute to hit it, instead of just taking your time and executing when you're comfortable.
You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?
No, not really. You're hitting the ball straight with the face of the man, not cutting it. But yes, the ball does angle outward.
Would that shot actually be useful?
Not really, at high levels. It's a gimmick that you might use if the goalie falls asleep or something, but it's still not a great percentage in general.
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ah all makes sense now, thanks, i've been spraying my snakes i think, maybe I need to shoot faster to lessen the spraying distance.
If I'm not using the snake, and I see the defender put his front defencement head back toe front and his goalie head front toe back, there's a big gap I could cut in between the two men right? Would a cut or brush be better? Just in general which one would you choose, because I know they both have their good/bad points.
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IMO it's not worth messing around with cuts on the snake. Just get the 3 big options down (long push, long pull, straight) and then add the short push and short pull and spray/square options and you're fine.
Cuts are very inconsistent, none of the top players use them on their snake shots except if they're messing around in pickup games.
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yea maybe I should get the corner straights first.
Is it better to practice both pull and push or practice only my better side (I think it's push). In a game of 9 balls, I'd be happy if I can get 2 in with snake out of two shots. I was thinking I could do two push snakes and get them in, then drop the snake for the rest of the match. I'll only get two in because the defender does not know that I can only do the push side. Does that work?
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Is it better to practice both pull and push or practice only my better side (I think it's push).
Practice both (and the straight--always practice it so you are shooting it from the same setup, rock, etc), but always spend the most time on your weakest option. If your push is better, spend 2/3 of your practice time on the pull side until the pull side is better, then focus on the push until it's better, etc.
And:
1. Don't place the ball by hand on the 3-rod and shoot. Always serve the ball, execute a real pass, set the ball up, and shoot. Getting used to adjusting your stance properly, shooting the shot when you're not doing the same motion over and over and over, etc are all hugely important.
2. Don't spend 5 minutes on the strong side and then 10 minutes on the weak side. Alternate push/pull randomly (with more emphasis on the weak side) so that you aren't fudging the setup for the one option you're doing over and over and over.
and really, I still maintain that practicing the shot much is a waste of time until you're really, really good. You should be focusing on ball control and passing with your practice time, the shot will come in game play.
In a game of 9 balls, I'd be happy if I can get 2 in with snake out of two shots. I was thinking I could do two push snakes and get them in, then drop the snake for the rest of the match. I'll only get two in because the defender does not know that I can only do the push side. Does that work?
Uhh, kind of. But if it's your primary shot, you need to get it to the level where you can shoot both sides.
I shoot a pull shot, and once in a great while if I'm really struggling I'll throw in a snake (once in the match). I only have 2 options on it, but for a one-time throw-in that can be enough to steal a point.
But that's only if I get shut down for 15+ possessions, I'd much rather adjust with my good shot than go to a desperation fallback that I might even misexecute.
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for some reason I always overshoot my long pulls now. The bad thing is that I can't really tell if I'm spraying the ball or if I am pulling my man too much now (probably because I shoot too hard and the ball goes too fast, so I can't tell if it went straight or not).
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put the 2bar out there and see if you can go around it....i would suggest practicing the snake all the time...or even in matches shoot the snake every shot untill you can win with it...the key would be to shoot a snake every time you get the ball on your 3 rod, that is what alot of tourny players do...only becase it is better to have one great shot then a bunch of bad or ok shots...
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I think I'm spraying a lot. I read somewhere that a recoil is useful for a snake. For example, if I do a push snake, then I should do a small pull motion so that the ball does not spray and that the ball will go straight instead. How important is it to recoil? Can a lack of recoil be replaced with more strength when shooting?
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I just started learning the snake a month ago. Fortunately I have my own table so I am able to put a lot of free time into it. I also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and feel overly qualified to answer your question.... ::). I started out doing great with the pull side, and lousy with the push side. Then I practiced the push side so much I lost the timing on the pull for a while. Now I am able to score going both ways. I am not a 100% yet with the shot but I am getting there.
Here is what I learned myself so far. Recoil is key for me on the push side with the spray problem. On the push side I actually have to think recoil everytime I shoot. When you shoot the pull side the recoil happens almost naturally. I believe this is why it is so much easier for most to be better initially with the pull snake. On the push side you have to conciously pull that rod towards you during the spin, after you have moved the ball out to where you want to shoot it. That last sentence is key to the push snake.... What side are you having problems with, or is it both sides?
You don't have to move the ball much to get it around the other guy. If you try and move the ball to far, and then shoot. You will hit the ball late with the outside edge of the man causing spray.
If you move the ball out to the perfect place to shoot it, but put to much recoil into it, you will also come back to the middle to far and hit the edge of the ball, and spray it to the outside of the goal.
Try video taping your shot.... Set the camera up at the end of the table behind the goal you are shooting at. This is a huge help!!!!
I have found when you are actually shooting, it is hard to figure out what you actually did wrong. Most video cameras come with a remote that you can slow down the play or watch frame by frame.... You may not even see the actual spin on the video, because you can spin the rod quicker than the frames per second on most standard cameras, but it is still an awesome tool to pick your shot apart with.
To answer your question. I dont think recoil can be replaced with more strength in your shot.. Think qiuck, and smooth. In my opinion, none of the shots are about strength. Sometimes when I shoot the snake I am surprised at how fast I can sink a shot, and I am not concentrating on how hard I can hit it. I have watched DVD's of the pro's, and they ALL have recoil in EVERY shot they do, unless they are shooting the straight.
Anyways, that will give you a few things to think about. I'm still a beginner, but I have put enough time in at this point to know what works for me, and what I was doing wrong. I'm interested to see what someone else has to say about it.
Keep practicing!
Dave
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I think I'm spraying a lot. I read somewhere that a recoil is useful for a snake. For example, if I do a push snake, then I should do a small pull motion so that the ball does not spray and that the ball will go straight instead. How important is it to recoil? Can a lack of recoil be replaced with more strength when shooting?
He is an excellent video of a push snake and the very evident recoil needed to square up the shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNb18XSxLoc
also notice the postion of the ball in relation to his mans foot and the direction he is going. If I'm on defense and you set with that look and don't dribble. I will know your going to push. At least rock back and forth to keep me guessing.
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Thanks.
I don't have a video camera so I can't tape myself.
You don't have to move the ball much to get it around the other guy. If you try and move the ball to far, and then shoot. You will hit the ball late with the outside edge of the man causing spray.
If I move the ball far and fast, wouldn't my guy be faster than the ball? If I shoot extremely fast, the only possibility I can see is that I will cut back the ball to the middle instead of spraying it outwards. This is what I mean when I say if more strength can reduce the need for recoil.
My stronger side is the push side. I can score once in a while without recoil, and that is why I was doubting the need for recoil. My pull side was ok before, but I stopped a while and now it's total crap. Total crap as in I can't even shoot the ball anymore lol.
How much recoil do you need anyways. Like a cm?
As for that video...damn, the recoil is nice. Is that considered a fast snake though? Even though I can't do a snake at that speed, I've seen some people in my area who can snake faster than that, and there's a whole lot more people who can shoot push kicks or push shots faster than that speed. And when my push snake actually pulls off, I can shoot faster than that video. Maybe the video was slowed down or something.
And from that video I can't really tell if there is a split second that the attacker's middle man is outside the goal range. Do you start spinning once you start the recoil, or do you start spinning once you have set the ball in motion to the push/pull side?
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What's funny about the "roller" is that it is almost different for every single person who shoots it, as far a how you execute the shot. I drew Pro Trad Powell last night in a local bring/draw and watched him shoot it all night, which gave me a totally different perspective as his goalie on how he shoots it. I shoot it totally different than him as far as my posture, my walking etc, etc. Nevertheless the shot is fundamentally the same for every one. Once the ball is "set" in the front pin postion it is ready to "pitch." Push or pull, you will pitch the ball to a predetermined hole. Your middle man WILL accelerate past the ball and will have to wait for the ball to reach it before it is struck. Or you will accelerate past the ball and have to recoil back to the ball. Now let's stop for a minute and go back to the "pitch."When you initiate the "pitch," you will simultaneously start the rollover. This shot is done in one motion with or without recoil. Recoil is not needed if you can shoot it straight in to the far holes, most can't hit the far holes at a very high rate of speed without recoil because of the spray.
I would do like Sumner said and practice your weak and strong sides respectfully. And practice your ball handling skills more (5 to 3 passing and catching). For example, Trad was scoring at about 50% just to be fair cause I know he can shoot better, but his ball handling ability was awe inspiring. He caught every loose ball and pass I sent his way and more or less beat their goalie with the law of averages. He got to shoot 90% more than the opposing forward and absolutely owned them will his 5 to 3 wall and lane pass. I'm glad I got to play with him caus e I learned A LOT about what I need to work on.
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practiced a bit today, the recoil really decreased my spraying times, but the problem now is because I"m trying to apply recoil, my speed has reduced a lot. My shooting power also has reduced a lot. Does this happen to anyone?
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My shot power reduced for a few days myself. When I was doing the shot sometimes, I would get a good takeoff and barely spin far enough to just hit the ball. The ball still went into the goal but had no speed to it. If you don't get a good swing on the ball you end up barely hitting it... Sounds simple but this is what I was doing, and I new it. I just wasn't quite sure how to correct it..... The solution for me was to go back to the basics, and just practice the straight about 50 times. making sure I was holding the handle the exact same way I would if I was going to move the ball left or right. Also, I think it is a good idea to learn the shot without the rocking motion at least in the beginning... I read that in an article on this sight I think... The rocking motion introduces a whole new set of timing variables into the shot. Dont do the rocking just cause other people do it. I can sit the ball perfectly still and score against people now. Rocking can sometimes give away when you are going to shoot...Some people will speed the rocking motion up right before the shot... I think it is a positive thing to add to your shot once you have learned the basic shot itself.
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now that I am learning the recoil, my shots are being raced a lot, and I usually lose the race. Should I practice with my fastest speed all the time, or should I practice with a slow speed with an accurate shot then try to improve on my speed? In other words, do I practice speed or accuracy first?
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Doesn't matter how fast you can go if you can't hit the hole ;D At least that's what she told me :-[
A question I would ask myself is. What was my shot % that went into the hole before I added the recoil? Smoothness and speed will come later as you practice more. Are you actually scoring at all with the recoil?
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I agree with Razor....smoothness, and speed will come. I went back to the beginning of your post though which were in February. It said then you were having no problem hitting the shot, you just wanted to add a cut to it. Your best bet maybe to go to a local bar, or tourney, and let somebody look at your shot. Where are you from?
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With and without recoil so far hasn't made much difference in terms of percentage of goals. When I did not add recoil, I would always hit the post. When I added the recoil, I would usually "swing and miss" the ball and give the ball to the defenders.
I'm from Toronto in Ontario.
Well here's the thing, my area people don't look highly on snake, lol, so I can't find anyone to look at my shot. We have a mall nearby that's quite famous in our area for top-notch players (even though they're not professional) and none of them use snake. They only use push kicks or pull kicks mostly. My friend's friend who used to play there even said that snake is so useless against top players. So yea... hard to find someone to teach me snake =/
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With and without recoil so far hasn't made much difference in terms of percentage of goals. When I did not add recoil, I would always hit the post. When I added the recoil, I would usually "swing and miss" the ball and give the ball to the defenders.
I'm from Toronto in Ontario.
Well here's the thing, my area people don't look highly on snake, lol, so I can't find anyone to look at my shot. We have a mall nearby that's quite famous in our area for top-notch players (even though they're not professional) and none of them use snake. They only use push kicks or pull kicks mostly. My friend's friend who used to play there even said that snake is so useless against top players. So yea... hard to find someone to teach me snake =/
There's only 1 top-notch Tornado player in Canada who uses a push-kick or pull-kick (Eric Dunn shoots a great closed-handed pull-kick, although the snake is his primary shot), unless Mitch Jang has switched to one.
Merv Buske, Olavo Tavares, and Kane Gabriel are all good tournament players in Ontario, but I'm not sure if they're from Toronto or elsewhere. If I were you I'd try to find the local DYP and look up some good tournament players for advice.
None of them would tell you that you can't score a snake against top players, esp. considering that 6 of the top 10 players in the world shoot a snake (one of them alternates between it and a pull). None of them shoot a pull-kick or push-kick; #23 (Gregg "Jeep" Perrie) used to be one of the top push-kickers but he's gone to the snake at a lot of tournaments. #28 Thor Donavan shoots a wicked open-handed pull-kick, and then tied at #60 with a ton of people you have Chris Dube (pull-kick) and Ken Allwell (push-kick). Eric Dunn is #52 but he's a snake shooter in serious compe**ion.
So 3 of the 102 pro-masters shoot a kick shot as their primary these days, unless Jeep goes back to it.
Pretty much the rest of the top 100 are either snake or pull shooters, with a few front-pins (most notably Frederico Collignon) mixed in and John Zoller's crazy tic-tac (very fun to watch but not compe**ive with the top players in scoring percentage).
EDIT: Great censorship filter. I guess I should have said Eric's a snake shooter in serious compeboobion.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdBYQrcsseE
no recoil and the goalie obviously let the attacker shoot the pull side, but amazing ball control
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdBYQrcsseE
no recoil and the goalie obviously let the attacker shoot the pull side, but amazing ball control
That was not a snake shot as it was labeled, it was a pull side front pin with three consecutive fakes. This is also called the "Euro" shot. There is minimal recoil involved if at all, because you have to bring the man from the front around the ball to the back and the ball usually comes to the man. It also appears this person shot it with an open hand, notice the foot of the man going vertical before the ball is struck. This is a great shot to learn as I use it as a quick set and I catch newer players with it while they waiting for me to set up on the Roller. It can be fired extremely fast and is extremely loud and often results in the ball coming back out of the goal. 'Rico uses this shot a lot I believe.
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Ok I've managed to add recoil into almost all my shots now, but now the problem is I always shoot straight and hit the post. I am sure I am shooting straight because a lot of the times, I would shoot, then the ball hits the post and bounced right back to my centre attack man. So what's my problem? Am I not starting to spin early enough? Is my lateral moving speed too much faster than my recoil/spinning speed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNb18XSxLoc
I notice that the snaker in this video has his man a bit to the pull side of the ball before he does a push snake. Theoretically, I think this would increase the lateral speed of the ball since there is more contact with the ball when you're moving it sideways. For a push snake, should I always start the strafing with my guy slightly to the pull side, and likewise slightly to the push side for a pull snake?
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To hit that ball perfectly straight and hit the post you are pulling or pushing it out pretty far. I suspect you are still spraying it. Depending on the spin on the ball it may very well bounce right back to you.
Never setup on the ball with an offsetlike you described. Although it might give you a bit more contact during the lateral movement...
If I were a goallie prepairing to block your shot. If you setup on top of the ball like in that video. I know what side you are going to shoot.
When I shoot I very rarley move the ball laterally very far. Why???? Because I can score without doing it, against a few different people. They guys I play against can beat most people out at a bar but are by no means pro's or anything. When I practiced all I would do is set the goalie up right in the middle of the goal, and set the ball up directly in front of the goallie and practiced pulling or pushing the ball around the goalie.
It is surprising how little you actually have to move the ball left or right to get around the man!! The shorter the distance you have to move the ball the quicker you are going to get the shot off.
Try this. Setup on top of the ball, and just practice laterally moving the ball left or right and see how hard you can hit the sidewall with it. Dont worry about spinning or hitting the ball.... The ball doesnt move very quickly. When the ball hits the wall does it even bounce back to the middle????
Concentrate on just getting around 1 man consistantly with your shot. The rest will fall into place.
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yea I am very good at pushing far, haha, so much better than pulling that I am considering just concentrating on a push snake like how people master the pull shot. For some reason I can start the snake on the furthest pull side of the goal and manage to push snake it to the furthest push goal. I've gotten quite a few "wow nice shots" that way too.
Of course if I intend to start the ball at an offset like that, I won't stop my dribbling then go for it. I will keep rocking the ball and quickly pull a bit (to have my guy off the centre) then do a push snake for example. The quick pull can even be a fake too.
As for the one man part, usually the defence is placed such that I have to get around 1.25 of a man. What I usually do as practice is that have both defencemen block one side (let's say push). Assuming that the furthest push hole is 5 and the furthest pull hole is 1. I set the goalie at 5 and defender at 4. When I practice the push snake, I consider it a goal if I can hit the goalie without hitting the 4, and this makes sure that I did not spray it (or else it would hit the defencemen).
Maybe I really am moving the ball sideways too much (even though I don't feel it). Should I slow down my lateral movement speed or increase my spinning speed to shoot the ball faster?
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That is a heck of a shot if you can snake it from the far pull side to the far push side. Most people would be able to race that shot to block it because of how far the push is. If you tried what I said with moving the ball laterally, and seeing how far it bounces back off the sidewall. Your probably lucky if it gets back to the middle of the table. (At least for me) I give the ball a quick push or pull and get it moving, and I am pretty much already rotating as soon as I come off the edge of the ball. I wouldnt recommend slowing down your side motion. That just makes it easier to block if the goallie has time to react, and see which way you are rolling with the ball. I try to always do the side motion as quickly, and as smoothly as possible. I guess when it comes down to it you would not be spinning the rod faster, just sooner to get a shot around 1 man quickly.
I have only been working with the shot now for just over a month. I would say my overall shot percentage is around 65% against the people I have played against. I can get a shot off now around a single man in the blink of an eye. They can't race me. They'll loose everytime. What works for me may not work for you. I am just trying to give some insight into what I have found. Some pro reading this may say I am totally wrong. It seems to be mostly new people to the game that post here for the most part. I'll take whatever advice someone gives, and see if I can adapt it to my game. Hope it helps!
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just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)? Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?
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just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)? Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?
I would think that they are both as equally deadly in the right hands. Because once you are smooth enough to get around the last man blocking a hole every single time, it's all about hitting the hole. I think the Euro causes less spray. I have a nice camera I should make some videos.
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it takes years to become good at a front pin....a snake you can be good at in a week....
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The reason I chose the snake shot was, I actually read somewhere that it is a fairly easy shot to learn for a beginner, and be good at in a month. (I started learning the pull shot at first, and after two shoulder surgeries, I couldn't do it for very long when I was practicing over, and over again. I can honestly say that I have been working on the snake shot for a month now and I am pretty good at it. I can go pull, push, & middle without to many problems. (Setting up the ball is my biggest hang up) My shot is quick enough that the average person could probably not race me. I have just started learning the walking snake, and that is a bit harder. Tony Spredeman makes it look so freakin easy! I think it adds a whole new dimension to the shot, and forces people to move their defense around, and potentialy screw up!
I have messed around with the euro-pin a little bit as well. I can shoot the pull side pretty well but the push side is harder for me. Nothing like the push snake. I have great control over tapping the ball around, and moving it with the euro-pin, so I can see how it can be a very deadly shot if you know what you are doing with it. I can also see how it can take a year or so to master it, and I honestly want to start winning some games before that! The euro-pin will probably become my back-up shot.
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just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)? Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?
There's only one person in the world who can shoot the front-pin highly effectively on Tornado. The next tier of front-pin shooters have a significantly lower scoring percentage than good semipro snake shooters. It's very hard to learn to square off the push side, hit it quickly, and not telegraph your options with the front-pin. Getting a deep snake to both corners is much easier.
On other tables where the men have smaller feet (so it's easier to get around the ball) and the ball is grippier, the calculus changes; there are many effective front-pin shooters on Bonzini/Eurosoccer/etc tables. (It's also much easier to shoot consistent cutbacks on those tables, and the smaller feet on the defenders make the cutback split a more reasonable option.)
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be good at the snake in a month? how many hours do you have to practice each day to be ok at it in that short period? I don't play often (probably arond 2 hours a week) but I started foosball like 3 years ago. I've reached the point where I don't seem to be improving on the snake anymore.
i'd say the biggest advantage that the euro shot has over the snake is the walking. It's so much easier. Walking the snake with your wrist on the rod is so hard.
To walk the snake/euro, you have to move in fast and small steps right? or fast and big steps?
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I practice a few times a week for probably 2 hours at a time. When I have friends over or parties at the house we play for like 7hrs at a time. I've only had my table since May. Work has been overly busy this week so my walking snake practice has been put to the side the last few days. As far as moving the ball short or long when your trying to walk it, I can only say what I have seen the pro's do. Tony Spree..... Can move that ball a good distance in one move... I would say 1 to 2 inches, with very little lifting of the mans foot off the ball. Almost un-noticeable. (It happens so quick it is very hard to see on the tournament DVD's) Other times he will move the ball in small amounts. But one thing I notice is how loud the tapping is when he comes back down on the ball after moving it. He must come down pretty hard on the ball. I have only practiced it for about an hour total, and the thing that happens to me is that the ball seems to bounce ever so slightly every time I move and come back down on it, and after about 6 moves it pops out from under the man. Usually backwards. Which means I have the ball to far back when I pin it. Maybe I need to try coming down harder on it. I have some work to do on it for sure. Walking it is probably just as hard as learning the shot if not harder.
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be good at the snake in a month? how many hours do you have to practice each day to be ok at it in that short period?
It depends. The most important thing is to do *valuable* practice--get a good shooter to show you how to practice. Practicing usefully for an hour is much more valuable than flailing about doing not-so-useful stuff for weeks.
And you're not going to have a pro-level shot in a month, but it's _much_ easier (and faster) on Tornado to learn an effective snake than an effective front-pin.
i'd say the biggest advantage that the euro shot has over the snake is the walking. It's so much easier. Walking the snake with your wrist on the rod is so hard.
Yes, walking the ball is easier with the front-pin. Scoring points is easier with the snake (again, on Tornado). Pick which one you want.
Almost no top-level snake shooters walk the ball around. Billy Pappas and Tony Spredeman are the only 2 I can think of; Terry Moore, Rob Mares, Tommy Adkisson, Steve Mohs, Louis Cartwright, Trevor Park, Bob Diaz, and other top masters all shoot a normal stationary/rocking snake.
I wouldn't be surprised if Billy and Tony are the only pro-masters (out of over 100) who walk the snake around. You don't have to walk it to score effectively, and it can get a lot harder to read the defense if you're walking the ball around.
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not true.....Rob Mares does walk the snake just not all the time, this year at worlds he shot it on billy ...and there are some more...Ron Olson, is another....
Chase
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not true.....Rob Mares does walk the snake just not all the time, this year at worlds he shot it on billy ...and there are some more...Ron Olson, is another....
Chase
Hmm. I've not seen Mares walk the ball before, probably a recent addition?
At any rate, the basic point remains: learn to shoot the snake effectively from a standing/rocking setup before you try to walk it. Most top pro snake shooters are very effective without ever walking it around.
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yea your point was correct....sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like you were wrong about how to learn the shot.....LOL sorry about that....
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I'll see...I may be giving up on the snake because I don't feel like I am improving on it anymore. In fact, my shot seems to have gotten worse. My push snake is stuck at its leve and my pull snake NEVER scores now. Hell it doesn't even have a chance to score because I keep spraying the ball to the post when I do a pull snake. Weird thing is, I barely move the ball already and I am still spraying. The sound of the ball hitting the post is really loud so it's not the issue of not shooting hard enough causing the ball to spray. My guy is shooting straight when I spin so I am not "brushing" the ball towards the outside of the goal.