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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: Anderson on September 17, 2011, 01:17:32 AM
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You know what I'm doing on my table, and the design is perfect for it. Now that Fireball is part of ITSF, maybe they can push the bounds of foosball a little. If one can exchange a rod so easily, with the three piece bearing, what's wrong with actually allowing this in Fireball tournaments? I was practicing the other night, pounding my backpin where ever I wanted it to go, but my three man bank wasn't doing what I wanted. I put in my Tornado rod and had some success with a bank from the middle man, but my long bank(middle backpin pull to near then bank to far side fast as f*@$) still wasn't clicking. So I thought, let's try something old school. I put in a heavy rod, classic style Tournament soccer men, and I hit that long bank 6 straight times. I'm sure Fireball could market this. Design different men for your own rods. I'd rather play all of these different men on a Fireball rod. You don't need to offer different bearings, although I think it's a possibility, but you can get so much more done with the existing rod and bearing. You talked about having different colors for the men, but take it to the next level. Different designs for the men. Allow a player to have a grippier more rounded toe if it suits there game. It takes ten seconds to change a rod. That would cause ABSOLUTELY NO DELAY IN A TOURNAMENT GAME. Separate yourself from the pack. Show the world what you can do. Patent that three-piece bearing. That bearing is why I bought your table. That bearing is why I worship your table. Get it done.
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This has been my idea for several years.
With interchangeable rods, we could have golf club manufacturer's start making application specific rods where a pull-shooter might get a slightly different stiffness than a snake-shooter.
As long as the men are the same general size (could easily be measured with a cutout template), then there would actually be a market for other manufacturer's to make money in this sport, which would bring in money for tournaments.
Why is there so much money in golf? Because many groups make money.
We could have custom rods and custom men. Imagine having a ultra-light carbon fiber five-man...
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Yeah!
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I'd also like a 3-rod that would have at least the middle (32) figure with a spring-loaded foot (perhaps 3-5 degrees of bend), with adjustable tension so you can pin with a constant pressure and add reliability and precision to rollover and other pin shots... The figures just don't flex enough and in a predictable way...
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Just another idea to make shooting easier... Once you get the hang of this.. your corresponding stroke as you hit the ball would be that much faster, too!
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Dangit 'Killah! SHHH! You're getting too close to my idea of a spring loaded handle and adding weights to the other end of the rod ::)
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Mr. Anderson,
Yes, you are on to something.
I arranged last year with "The Rule Makers" this very thing. They are all good with it.
Here is the problem.
The Manufactures.
Dennis has enough on his plate.
I wish this was going to be possible, but we are limited by production at this stage of the game.
My wish list is short.
Different types of balls. I have three. Softer, middle (current) and harder. All three different colored, of course.
Rods
Different colored men (design is expensive to change out different molds) Coloring is cheap and easy.
Different colored handles and sizes. Smaller would be great too!
Plus, additional accessory items, in terms of marketing, like hats, shirts, gloves and stuff... You know the stuff that the world will want to buy.
Understand, it is not just me at this. I have to have the support of the owner. He is not familiar with accessories and concepts that are "outside of the box". We have to go slow and let him grow into the West. So far, he is doing pretty good just trying to keep us happy.
The good thing is... once I get my hands on the correct rods, we will fit them to the Tornado table. We will be able to supply after market rods for Tornado. We do have the chance to put Tornado men on the best rods and shorten them slightly to fit quickly into the Fireball table. I would love to see this on the world stage at some point for exchange of rods, men and handles. Myself, it is a waste to put Tornado man on the rod EXCEPT to catch the ball. Fireball mans back side is way too short at this point for a perfect catch. Dennis and I have made the drawings, but it has not been realized yet.
We will get there. We will get there together. Anything to make the tables more user friendly is a good idea. More thoughts, the merrier.
Arlie, well... how many do you think I can sell? Make it yourself and I will help you sell them. It is an interesting concept, explain it, make it and market it.
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Brad, the problem with different balls is that the players would have to agree on the ball. Not feasible, even if choice of ball comes to possession. Having different men is feasible, since my choice does not affect the play of an opposing player. Perhaps the men can be manufactured and sold by independent companies, or just individually designed by players and enthusiasts like me. I would only need the ability to buy another rod and tailor the men to the rod. Of course some governing body(ITSF?) would have to rule on what men are legal to the table. Obviously you can't put goalie men that are twice as broad, take up more space, etc. Anyways, it's nice that we can begin the discussion with"The Rule Makers" and that they're good with it.
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Anderson, I look forward to the day when a tournament is announced and the ball also is stipulated. Then the players bring out their own weaponry to go to battle with accordingly to the ball and play of the table. We are a ways away from that, I know, but it is a possibility now that Fireball is a reality.
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Mr. Anderson,
The ball would not be up to the player. It would be "officially announced" what the (by) promoter is using for the event, like what Arlie is mentioning. The men and the rod are player’s opposition. I can hear on the "other" board would say to this entire high brow thinking...
Back to the ball
Again, it is about oppositions for a local, regional promoter getting a ball that fits the players. Fitting the players is what each area of the country/nations should have a choice for the locals. It is not about the NATIONAL events. The local player is coming out each week and playing on tables that don't match their collective game. Balls that don't match their skill levels and tables that are OLD, in many cases 20 to 30 years old. That is not good for our game. Period. Or simple things like balls that are Cherrys, dirty and basically rocks. Sure, if the clients don't care, I am all good with that. However, when a Player has to buy balls and change out the table before a DYP, that is when I say... Players think about who is getting all your effort, you yes, reimbursement? Work on it.
Fireball's is an easier ball to catch and stays cleaner Much, Much longer. Yeah, you will have to wash them and hand sand some of the spots to get them fresh again. 10 mins for 9 balls? Most promoters in the country don't even know about Fireball-balls. It is a better ball for MOST players to play and learn on, no matter which table you play on... except Bonzini. The grippy ball works best.
Buy balls please, my children haven't eaten in three days.
Later, Brad
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While on the way back from an elk bow hunting trip I just had to stop in at Bull Mountain, a bar in Tigard OR, that has some Fireball coin-ops. As I practice with the Fireball ball on a Tornado brown top at home, I again was struck with the sweet play of the Fireball table. It truly is a great interpretation of what a foosball table should play like. We can try to do things to make it play different but it stands on it's own merits quite well. The more I play on it the more I like it. I keep using the word 'sweet' to describe the play, Bbtuna, wouldn't you think that an accurate description?
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Tornado brown top? :o
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Oops, flashbback! Brown marble,,,
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OM, yea, that is a good description...its the rods and bearings and the foot of the man (which is great but could be tweaked I think one more time)
i love stepping up and finessing or powering passes with no effort and cranking on the 3 rod with a fraction of the effort as Tor...the rods are just amazing, they get better and better and better and better every time I get on the table it seems...I think it can't get any better than I adjust a little more and find it can do more IF I LET IT...this is a very important phrase and I don't know how best to describe it until you get some real time on the table
I don't know how a total newbie who had no Tor (or other table) history would respond if this is all they had ever known but I can tell you, for a long time serious Tor player, it takes some time but the revelation, the unfolding, the realization of how different these rods really are and how much they impact what you can do, can not be fully appreciated in a couple of hours of play...I go further and say they can not be fully appreciated even after 40 hours...I have more time than that on the table and I am still discovering the beauty and value of these rods...
I am not throwing out superlatives just to talk big, I am not being paid, I just love the game and have for years now, said it the way it was when it came to tables and this is so significant that it can't be overstated and I am not afraid of anyone getting one and contradicting me or being disappointed (unless they just mess with it for a couple hours and come back like they are experts)
I challenge any serious player, especially Tor playas, to spend at least 40 hours on the table and tell me, whatever level they are, that they still aren't learning what the rod can do for them
I am not saying it takes that long to adjust, although for the serious Tor player you aren't going to get 100% in a couple hours, I am saying that I can't wait to get back tonight to the Fireball sitting in my dinning room so I can marvel at what that rod might do tonight IF I LET IT...last night was unbelievable...who knows what tonight might bring...
don't wait, sell out all you Tor players, a better future awaits...you won't believe how hard Tor has been on your body until you get a couple of months of regular play on Fireball...can't say enough
really foos buds, for real!
bbt
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sounds like your in LOVE!...im really happy for you!.....not jealous..just happy.
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Well put Bb,,,,
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I had a thought, a moment of clarity, which are few and far between these days ;), about what I miss about the feel of the older tables. I've come to the realization that something was lost when they balanced the men. We lost the torque that gave us feed back on our shots. Then the weight would shift from one side of the rod to the other(front and back) as you made your strike. Couple that with the lateral motion and there was a "feel" that you could identify and use. Now the balanced men don't produce that torque feel as both ends of the man cancel that out as they weigh the same. Kind of like the difference of feel between rack and pinion and power steering, feedback vs a disconnected action. I've tried some pencil lead placed in the groves on the Tornado men and then wrapped that with rubber bands. It did help some and the timing seemed better for me but of course it is a whole different ball game and would need time to get use to such a change. I still don't like the Tor foot shape but it was interesting. Maybe that is one area of adjustment that could be explored if one were to make custom men,,, :)
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I had a thought, a moment of clarity, which are few and far between these days ;), about what I miss about the feel of the older tables. I've come to the realization that something was lost when they balanced the men. We lost the torque that gave us feed back on our shots. Then the weight would shift from one side of the rod to the other(front and back) as you made your strike. Couple that with the lateral motion and there was a "feel" that you could identify and use. Now the balanced men don't produce that torque feel as both ends of the man cancel that out as they weigh the same. Kind of like the difference of feel between rack and pinion and power steering, feedback vs a disconnected action. I've tried some pencil lead placed in the groves on the Tornado men and then wrapped that with rubber bands. It did help some and the timing seemed better for me but of course it is a whole different ball game and would need time to get use to such a change. I still don't like the Tor foot shape but it was interesting. Maybe that is one area of adjustment that could be explored if one were to make custom men,,, :)
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Unbalanced men? Then in singles you have to hold the 3 and/or 5 bars up to shoot? Might as well play in Europe then...
We used to use the pencil lead to BALANCE the men so they would stay up and not be susceptible to falling down from any
vibrations or shocks..
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Maybe a time machine back to the 70s and 80s for you? :) This is a rare thing you're bringing up... Almost everyone of thousands of players get that "feel" pretty quickly, especially if they have a table they can practice on... You sure this isn't a harbinger of some nerve damage?
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Hey 'Killa! I know why they did it but I still say something was lost. A little while ago the news talked about a planet that was like Earth. They could tell it was there and the size and distance because it caused the star to wobble a certain amount, a feed back. If it was 2 planets the same distance , same size and opposite from each other in orbit around that star, then they wouldn't have that wobble. I think I miss the wobble 'Killa ;D. Hey, we need to have food for thought don't we? Besides, I think I could be right. :o
The beauty is, with Fireball and the prospect of customizing our own rods we can check all these theories out, how sweet is that?
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Hey 'Killa! I know why they did it but I still say something was lost. A little while ago the news talked about a planet that was like Earth. They could tell it was there and the size and distance because it caused the star to wobble a certain amount, a feed back. If it was 2 planets the same distance , same size and opposite from each other in orbit around that star, then they wouldn't have that wobble. I think I miss the wobble 'Killa ;D. Hey, we need to have food for thought don't we? Besides, I think I could be right. :o
The beauty is, with Fireball and the prospect of customizing our own rods we can check all these theories out, how sweet is that?
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OM,
I'd just say, if you have a table... experiment with grips and stances and takeoffs (pitches)... Do that and you'll find out what players have found out over decades of play... how to shoot with feel. I've played since the greentop TS and Deutscher-Meister days.. Mayhap I've been lucky that the cities and countries I was playing in happened to have one or more amiable pros willing to teach and give tips to save me thousands of man-hours of wasted improper play. I still can't believe you'd need unbalanced men to get back to some sort of "feel" from the feedback, unless you're beginning to suffer some kind of metacarpal effects like some of my foos buddies over the years who didn't get the chance to figure out the correct technical ways... but those same pros... I first met Todd back in 78 in Cleveland, if memory serves.. I was drinking with Tony Gwynn and he happened to sit at our table. His pull has been the same, technically correct (prolly close to perfect) for 3+ decades over so many table variants... no loss of feel ... that should give you the clue.
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I would never feel the need for changing the playing field (and simply cope when it does change)... I'd "figger it out!" A lot of people even today get thrown by, for ex., having to play on old grey or brown marbles without the upgrade kit... wall passes and bounces all get screwed up ... but once they bear down and figure out the difference, they adjust to it (at least most of them do.. there are a few who decide the table was royally screwed up even if they did play those marbles or earlier for decades and use it as the reason they lost)..
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In fact, one of the things I do like about tables changing in characteristic over the years is it gives oneself a reset. Can one adjust back to normal play quickly enough? And it kinda brings me back again and again to when I first started foosing.. it was suddenly new again! I may be unlike many, but I enjoyed it immensely when the browntop cokecan handles appeared, to screw up so many players used to the greentop/bluetop/DM's.. I didn't like the flimsy Dynamo's when they first appeared but I made myself like the new rubberized handles.. and I was thrown by the new Tornado's in 88 when I'd been used to playing the glasstop Tornado's and Hurricanes,,, but IT WAS LIKE STARTING OVER AGAIN! It was and continues to be FUN! Kinda like if a computer guy was a DOS God... why not enjoy throwing all that away and learnign the Mac and Windows? It's your choice, brother... Comfy with your ole Blackberry or other smartphone? Ditch em and go IPhone or Droid.. it's like being a kid again, and again, and again!
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Ouch! Didn't expect to get a lecture for trying to think outside of the box ??? If I wasn't feeling the shot I wouldn't have thought about it and wanted to play around with it. I'll never beat Spree, Pappas, or Freddy in a tournament. I'm 57 and enjoy playing and I have beat pro-masters a few times. Probably more luck than anything. But all in all I post here with a smile, tease a bit and enjoy talking it over. I don't get to play a lot due to my location and the price of gas but do like to stay connected, in some fashion, to the foos community. And since I've never had a smart phone or Blackberry, I do it here.
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Ouch! Didn't expect to get a lecture for trying to think outside of the box ??? If I wasn't feeling the shot I wouldn't have thought about it and wanted to play around with it. I'll never beat Spree, Pappas, or Freddy in a tournament. I'm 57 and enjoy playing and I have beat pro-masters a few times. Probably more luck than anything. But all in all I post here with a smile, tease a bit and enjoy talking it over. I don't get to play a lot due to my location and the price of gas but do like to stay connected, in some fashion, to the foos community. And since I've never had a smart phone or Blackberry, I do it here.
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That's good and clear OM! Thinking outside the box is rarely a bad idea.. I was just worried it could be something else.. like my buds John Grasso and LEon... they started talking in the same vein about the feel.. turned out it was physical nerve damage..
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And I also wanted to make sure for anyone who likes most change in their hobbies or sport of choice... enjoy it.. it's a reset... I'm sure all those superhuman PM's and legends wouldn't have minded no changes from the beginning.. but I like the changes .. just about all of them..
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We're good bro! :)
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Some of you 'Old Schooler's' might want to take a look at this. I think some of that old feel, the 'whip' feel is tied up in what I'm talking about. I tried it and then went back to balanced men and, well, I'd like someone else to try it and see if they notice what I'm talking about. Is it legal to add weight to men thus customizing the play to you?