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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: chen on November 08, 2011, 09:14:56 PM
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I am a rookie fooser only been playing about 2 years. I play on a Tornado table with American rules; however, I recently whent to Italy and I played Foosball with my Italian friend. And they got some weird Foosball rules where you can only score by banking and you can't do passes not the mention the table we played on was terrible.
My friend and I were arguing on which are the official world rules and which table is more recognized around the world and he kept insisting Italian Foosball rules are more recognized around the world. I don't think that's the case. American Foosball seems more technical like real soccer to me, where as Italian Foosball is too fast and seems like it's all luck since the ball is flying all over the place. I know there is some skill involved in it also but it does not seem that way to me. At least that's my opinion.
So I was wondering what you guys and gals thought about this?
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I think I can help you with this - I lived in North America for many years and now live close to Italy and I play. In North America, Tornado tables are obviously very popular. In Canada, where I lived, before the intoduction of Tornado tables (around 1987-1988) bars and pubs were mostly populated with the Italian made FABI or Garlando tables. Sons of Italian immigrants in Canada played mostly Italian style rules - 'no passing or dragging' (no push/pull kicks), no dinks, no pinning, no snaking, etc. In Italy they still play by these rules. Italians will SWEAR that those are the proper rules. In fact you can go on youtube and finds clips of Collignon matches with comments by Italians (in Italian) saying what a bad player he is because of all the passing and stopping of the ball (go figure).
They are obviously wrong. The international rules are those set out by the ITSF (you can view them on the ITSF's website). Only Italians (and sons of Italian immigrants) play with Italian rules. Everywhere else in Europe players play with ITSF rules (or for the less initiated, something very close).
Now, that's not to say that the Italian style rules don't require skill. They just require a different set of skills. In fact, there is a set of videos on Youtube where a top Italian player plays both Collignon and Pappas (as a team) by himself and beats them in an Italian style rules game. He then goes on to play Collignon with one hand, also in an Italian style rules game, and beats him. But then, of course, they play an ITSF rules game and Collignon smokes him.
What we (my club's players) usually do when we meet Italian players who insist on Italian style rules is agree to play one game their rules, one game ITSF rules. Who gets the most total goals in the two games. Italians, being the proud bunch that they are and wishing to show that they can smoke you in any style, usually agree.
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Also, in Europe, Tornado tables are only recognized by those who are SERIOUS about the game. They are pretty much nowhere to be found in bars, pubs, universities, etc. You might find a couple in the UK where the BFA are known to play on them. Otherwise, due to the cost of them and the high shipping costs, they don't exist. I had to buy mine from the BFA and it took a while to find it.
In Europe, there are many table manufacturers and depending on where in Europe you live, you'll find a different type of table. In Italy - Garlando or FABI. Germany - Tecball or Lechmacher, Czech Republic - Garlando or Rosengart, UK - Garlando, FABI, maybe a fireball or two, France - Bonzini, etc. No Tornados.
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Thanks for that info.
Now I know what to tell my friend.
I often tell him that Foosball should be like real soccer with passing techniques and having different striking strategies in mind. I usually joke with him that in soccer you just don't see soccer players kicking the ball like mad men all over the field and praying to God that the ball lands on the goal.
I'm gonna check out those videos on YouTube.
Thanks again ....
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The greater the number of restrictions you place on any activity, the more you limit the abilities of the participant. I use to play Italian style rules when I first started playing in my formative teen years. I wish I didn't. I lost the chance to acquire, early on, the skills I am now trying to develop.
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Oh...and you're welcome.
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There's no way Italian rules are used more than tournament style foosball rules... Outside of Italy and Canada, I don't know where they actually play Italian style Tournaments. Even in other European countries where Italian style tables are used, they have been modified to facilitate pinning and passing as opposed to one touch play. As a side note, most Italians will tell you foosball originated in Italy too; I think it started in Germany but am not 100% sure.
There's actually two different sets of Italian style rules... One where if you stop the ball or hit two men on the same rod, you need to hit the wall before scoring, and one where if you stop of hit two men on the same rod, you need to reserve. In Canada, they have tournaments using both sets of Italian rules, on Montreal they play these on the old style Garlando tables with blocky feet, in Toronto Fabi tables are used. In Italy, Roberto Sport tables are the tournament standard. The majority of foosers in Montreal and Toronto will play regular rules on these tables, however, so even here on Italian tables, Italian rules are used less than not.
Italian rules are really good for developing reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and defence; don't be thinking that there's no strategy, there are quite a few advanced techniques that appear to be smash and pray.
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Italian rules are really good for developing reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and defence;
Exactly my feelings. I used to play against some Italians who were military training here in the USA. I would prefer rookie players start this way. It helps develop their natural reactions.
It won't help you win in a tournament setting though unless you're playing on the Corona table.
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Italian rules are really good for developing reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and defence;
Exactly my feelings. I used to play against some Italians who were military training here in the USA. I would prefer rookie players start this way. It helps develop their natural reactions.
It won't help you win in a tournament setting though unless you're playing on the Corona table.
I truly believe that one can greatly improve their skills by trying, experimenting with, a variety of different tables, styles, and even changing the ball on a given surface, not to learn how to master a game that will never exist, i.e. cork ball on Tornado, or Bonzini rod on a Fireball surface(both of which I've done), but rather to understand more the mechanics of the ball, surface, and man, and about the little differences. I will soon be purchasing a Garlando rod for my Fireball, although I've been having trouble finding where I can buy a Garlando ball in the US. I even hope to create a rod with the Spanish men with split feet in order to just understand how the game is quite different and to enjoy a little bit more history of foosball. I believe that Italian rules can greatly improve certain skills, specifically just being able to find the ball. I sometimes will lose a match, not because the opposing player was that much better than me in terms of three man skills or five man skills, but because of his ability to pick up a loose ball and my inability to do the same.
It's unfortunate that there are so many players who look at foosball as this table is the way and all others suck. I find such players rather uneducated about foosball, not all of them, but many. Those who investigate those differences might at least appreciate the differences and the varying skills and are welcome to remain biased toward the table that they excel at. The others might still excel in their own niche, and even be able to play their own style on other tables(often with a grimace), but I think they'd get even better if they'd at least try something different and learn from it.
Never played Italian rules, but I hope to learn some day.
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Anderson, I would go with a Barenherz magic ball on a Garlando rod. It takes a few hours of play for the top coating to wear off, but then they grip nicely. Garlando balls (any of the three they offer) are not really designed well to get the most of the Garlando rod. Just me opinion.
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the table you played on was prolly a robertosport.... hands down the worst table we ran into when we first went over. it has made vast improvements however since. it's one of their official tables of choice. I was there when those vids where shot. it was in Prague. the guy rico plays is the number three rated player al volo style. and yes although it looks reckless the top players are very skilled. I watched him beat rico one handed and then billy and fred one on two for cash. truly remarkable. I also watched Massimo, the president of the Italian Federation beat tony and ryan one on two in al volo play.
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Garlando was my first table which I learned on in a bar in Hampton, Va. around 1972-73. Rene Pierre tables were all over the place at that time, but there were a few Garlandos here and there, and the playing styles of these two different tables were radically different. The Garlando tables were FAST and us Garlando players played that way with no passing, lots of 5man shots, and push, pullkick and on-the-move shooting on the 3rod. When Rene Pierre players would come into our bar and try to play with us we always smoked them. On the other hand, when us Garlando players played our rocketball style on the Rene Piere tables, we did quite well and also drove the Rene Pierre aficianados crazy with our 5man shots and take-no-prisoners style of fast play. It was obvious to the most casual observer that Garlando players were able to adapt much better to the other guy's table that they were to ours, across the board. Later, when I discovered Tournament Soccer in 1975, I was able to learn passing & control without losing anything on my 5man shot. Trust me on this, 5man shots are legal, ethical and quite effective. They will also make you lots of enemies! As some other people on this thread commented above, playing different styles with different rules on very different tables will make you better. Rocketball style play is also a lot of fun.
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The Italian Foos Job!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czh0T_oIdMY&NR=1
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Hi Buckshot, I played RP '70-71-72. Yes, lots of them throughout Tidewater area (now referred to as Hampton Rhoads I hear). One Virginia Beach bar, "The Shack" had a Garlando. Very fast & fun. RP players were sort of rocketball Alvolo in the beginning 'cause we didn't know any better(but it was fun). As we caught that grippy light weight white cork ball, accidently at first, then intentionally things changed radically. I can see things being just as you describe at the time/place. When I moved from the beach, RP 5bars shots were the bomb as were 3 bar front pin pushes & pulls (which we called "curl" shots), & banks & cuts) against a race D that was just starting to move/bait. Keep on foosin, John
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Hi John, Back then the Hampton Rhodes Bridge Tunnel still had a toll so I hardly ever went to Va Beach, but I remember that some of the best local RP players came from that area.
I never could get that front-pin down. It's funny how certain shots evade us and other shots are natural. I find the pull shot and front-pin virtually impossible to do, yet for many people these shots are almost automatic. Some of the Rene Pierre players could really finess that front-pin push/pull, always moving, and then PING!
There were move foosball tables in the Tidewater area in the early 70's than any other time&place I've ever heard of. They were in little country stores and gas stations, bars, and great big foosball rooms. Best name ever for a foosball emporium: Windup! Little place in Hampton with about 6-8 tables owned by a friend of mine, cool young dude named Ronnie Mays. Ah, to be young again.
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Buckshot, I believe you are so correct: Tidewater had a greater # of tables than anywhere, back then or since. Likewise in reverse, I rarely went north of the Chesapeake because of bay-bridge tunnel. A friend & I did sell some RPs in Buckroe Beach, wonder if any ended up in your friend Ronnie's WINDUP. Actually, RPs were knock offs of Bonzini, but who knew? I stopped playing mainly '72 to '08. 5 bar is my biggest challenge + AGE. :-\ My biggest foos thrill was winning a car in '72 at RP tourny in VB Dome singles- My friend Tom Baker & I also won doubles. I regret that I have lost track of him-great friend & goalie. Get this, "Seniors" was 17 & older-I was 24, so we were seasoned & experienced. The old Dome existed 58-93, another memory was to see Jimi Hendrix there while I was inlisted in the Navy in 1968. Great music & foos go together. These days,win or lose, just plan to play the game I love as much & as long as possible.
PS-Bonzini is great for backpin, & ofcourse Fireball is easier than Tornado (which is popular table here in Chicagoland) have a friend with a Garlando. To each his/her own.
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You won a CAR in a foosball tournament?! IN 1972!?! Holly cow! Dude, that's got to be some kind of record, cause foosball tournaments were rare in those early days before Tournament Soccer. And considering the high level of talent in that area at that time, you must have been quite a player. As I recall, most people were much better with the 3rod than the 5 and passing wasn't as sophisticated as it is now, so you probably had a truly awesome shot. Good for you.
I've been to the Dome. I saw Frank Zappa there, also Black Sabbath. I understand some people in attendance were doing drugs, but NOT ME!
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The Dome actually existed 58-94. Was only in Hampton colliseum once to see Dr. J play as a ABA VA Squire. Only lived 2 blocks from Dome so walked to footsball tournaments & concerts. Foos entrys were free & concerts in our time about $5! When you were inside with Ozzy & Black Sabbath I was on the lawn='71. Besides Jimi (with Archie Bell & the Drells) saw Alice Cooper James Gang,Fleetwood Mac,Yes,Johnny OR Edgar Winter, & some I forgot ;). Heard about the drugs but NOT ME! either...Yep,It was the first car ever awarded (atleast in U.S.) for foos out of around 11or 13 I counted once in Johnny Lott's/Kathy Brainard's Almanac. They got better:Corvettes, Porches during TS. I think Furry got 2,Wiswell at least 1.
Anyway, back to RP, in Dec. 71 at Dome, I won a Honda 125SL,1st place singles. Paul Nipper & I won doubles. I kept the newspaper articles,later submitted them & other stuff which my friends Alan Cribbs (president BonziniUSA) & Bruce Nardoci (THE legend of French style foosball) put onto the history section.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/foosball/tournament/history/VintageFoos.html & via Johnny into Table Soccer Almanac. I wish i had 1/10 of the speed & skills of back in the day. In my short undefeated run all I did was sleep,eat,drink (abits)...FOOS,repeat. About 4 years ago I realized I've gone from can't lose to can't play, the only fooser who owns a table to the only one who doesn't, from having groupies to being one.(I'm a BIG fan of Tony Spredeman & all our world cup team). Thankful to get to VB via Navy-right place/time. Chen,sorry to divert thread. Saw Italians play in Naples=awesome, & I do agree with most of the above comments, that varied experience is helpful. Just my 2 cents but my favorite style of table & play is French & in this century, Bonzini John Hayes