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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: ryanderson on November 15, 2011, 02:54:07 PM

Title: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ryanderson on November 15, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
Hi everyone,

The playing surface of my cyclone 2 (non coin op) is delaminating in both goal boxes. This is causing  a significant bubble in front of each goaltender. Does anyone have any tips on how to fix it?  Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Thanks!
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: crazy8 on November 15, 2011, 03:22:16 PM
I have tried two 'tips':

1)  Use a heat-gun to re-melt the glue beneath the surface.  Use a really heavy, flat object to press the surface into place.
2)  Use a hypodermic needle to squirt new glue under the surface.  Use a really heavy, flat object to press the surface into place.

Neither works for any length of time.

New surfaces are available ($250 at foosball.com).  If you choose this route, please post your results; I would be interrested in hearing about the steps you went through.  Looking at the table it doesn't seem as though it would be too difficult.

Best of luck...
Paul
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ryanderson on November 17, 2011, 11:13:41 AM
I tried the heat/weight process out.  I used a blow drier to get the surface good and hot then put a large book and thirty pounds of dumbbell weights on top of it for 24 hours.  I took them off last night and it was quite a bit better.  It was clear that some parts didn't get hot enough but most of it was stuck back to the surface below.

But I checked again this morning and now it's back to delaminated just like it was before, so that didn't last long. 

I think the only option is to replace the surface.  Doh!  At least then it will be like a brand new table.  My friend called Tornado and they recommended contact cement.  I hope it works better than what's on there now...

I'll take pictures and document the playing surface replacement process on this forum.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: deadbarfoos on November 17, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
But I checked again this morning and now it's back to delaminated just like it was before, so that didn't last long

must have not shot enough glue under there ,could add more??? no ?

Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: foozkillah on November 17, 2011, 08:48:18 PM
But I checked again this morning and now it's back to delaminated just like it was before, so that didn't last long

must have not shot enough glue under there ,could add more??? no ?
;
Yeah... what glue were you using?  Liquid Nails like they have at Lowe's or Home Depot?
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: SilentSam on November 17, 2011, 09:10:23 PM
It looks like he didn't add any glue, he just reheated the surface to reuse the glue already present.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ryanderson on November 18, 2011, 03:56:04 PM
That's right, I didn't inject glue. I was thinking about trying that but I was a bit wary of making any kind of hole in the playing surface.  Still deciding what to do next.  Did some research and found that replacing the surface is quite a task, but if done correctly I'd have a practically new table.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ryanderson on November 18, 2011, 04:14:39 PM
Now that I'm thinking about it, i might as well inject some glue. What do I have to loose anyway? 
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: foozkillah on November 19, 2011, 08:11:14 PM
Now that I'm thinking about it, i might as well inject some glue. What do I have to loose anyway? 
;
Yeah, you said it... So ... go get a grip ! LOLOLOL!
;
and stick to it!
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: deadbarfoos on November 21, 2011, 02:44:30 PM
i wonder if heating up the end where the goal is and carefully lifting up the laminate and inject glue under it ,then put the bricks on top ,etc
or something heavy enough to press it down to dry ,but i'd rather an expert weigh in on what type of glue to use
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: jhole on December 04, 2011, 12:35:59 PM
Hi I am new to the forums and I saw this thread.  I am experiencing the same problem with my Cyclone II.  My problem seems to have extended beyond the goal box and across pretty much 1/4 of the table.  Most of the table's surface is fine but the one end has delaminated enough to cause the ball to not roll true or straight. this makes the table virtually unplayable.

I was thinking of trying the heat gun method and the glue injection method here but I am looking for a more permanent fix.  Let me add the playing surface itself is in perfect condition as is the table overall.  its just this delaminating problem I
m dealing with.  Does anyone know if the playing surface can be re-used and the entire thing be re-glued down?  And if so, does anyone have tips or instructions on how to do it?

Any help is greatly appreciated. I just got the table and I'm dying to play on it!

Jason
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ryanderson on December 06, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
I never tried the glue injection process because the bubble suddenly got real bad.  I figured it was fubar, but now since we've had very low relative humidity lately the bubble caused by the delamination has decreased to the point where my table is actually playable again.  The problem will no doubt return after the weather changes though.

I looked into a complete playing surface replacement and found a place (http://www.tornadofoosball.com/) that sells them with the playing surface and particle board pre-assembled, made to order from the Tornado factory.  They cost $150 plus shipping (quite heavy).  The guy I talked to said it's quite a project to change it out, but doable and he's done it many times.  The non coin op tables are harder because you have to remove the entire ball return system and there's a lot of staples down there. 
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: jhole on December 07, 2011, 01:36:28 AM
Hey Ryanderson,

Thanks for your input.  I doubt I will have have the same luck you did as I am in Arizona where the humidity is generally low year round.  I also placed a call to the factory today and left a message for a couple of people.  I assume I will get the same response you did.  I looked under the table and sure enough there are quite a few staples but otherwise the construction is relatively simple with maybe a dozen or so screws to remove in order to lift the playing surface out.

I think I will remove the playing surface and attempt to make a permanent repair by seeing if I can remove the laminate completely from the particle board cleaning all of the existing adhesive off and re-gluing it down.  I'm hoping that purchasing a new playing surface will be my last resort. And if my attempt at repair goes awry and renders my surface fubar then at least the old surface is out of the table and the new one can just be installed. I figure what have I got to lose if I mess it up I'll already have half the work done of replacing it. 

I plan to video or photo document my attempt at this repair and if successful I can share it with you and anyone else that may run into this problem.  Hopefully yours remains self-healed.

Thanks again.

J
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: crazy8 on December 14, 2011, 09:34:06 AM
Just saw this...
Quote
Playfield
$150.00
Playfield - only. (This is just the playfield, the flat playing surface only.)
**2 Field Strips Required, not included.
Specify table model in ordering instructions.
Playfields are ordered directly from the factory; production time is 1-4 weeks.
Additional freight charges apply due to weight (70 pounds, specially crated.) IMPORTANT NOTE: The factory is not able to make the playfields for ANY foosball table, EXCEPT for coin-operated models, manufactured in 1999 or before.

I didn't know the Coin-op and Cyclone II tables had different surfaces.  Can anyone add to this.  As posted earlier - I'm also considering changing the surface on a Cyclone II.

Paul
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: SilentSam on December 14, 2011, 03:24:29 PM
Even between the different versions of the coinops, the playfields were different. I can't comment on this precisely, but they were manufactured by different companies, using different materials.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: aaronfay on December 30, 2012, 06:29:54 PM
Hello,

I realize this is an old thread, I just wanted to chime in on the topic as well.  We have a Twister II that we just purchased for work, and I didn't realize until we started playing on the table that the surface at the goal ends was lifted. We played like this for a couple weeks, but it's become a little annoying.

I have some experience with carpentry (having started my apprenticeship years ago), and looking under the plastic plate on the end (where the score pieces are mounted) showed that the setup should come apart fairly easy.  I've already finished repairing one end of the table, and have the other end curing right now, the first end I finished looks like it's fixed, and turned out really well, so I'll document the process here so it might help someone else down the road.

Note: these instructions are for a (roughly) 2006 Tornado Twister II. Furthermore, I have a bit of handywork experience, if you choose to follow these instructions, you do so at your own risk. I assume no responsibility if you destroy your table.

You're going to need these tools to complete this job:

I chose the PL Premium after looking at all of the adhesives at Rona (canadian hardware store), I've used PL400 for carpentry before, and it's basically liquid nails, you'll destroy whatever you glue together if you try to pry it apart. After completing the first side, I see that PL Premium was a good choice, since it foams and expands a bit when it's curing. Be careful you don't get this glue on anything else, it will glue whatever it touches permanently.

Another note before you start: Even when removing the screws, I found that most of the pieces were stapled in place before they were screwed. Most of the staples can be pushed back into place if you remove the parts with care. Take your time.

Steps (for each end)

Removing the goal board
There are 6 screws (2 black, 4 silver) and a couple staples to pry out to get the goal board off (The goal board is the board with the goal hole in it).

Gluing
The instructions on the PL Premium say to use gloves, put them on now. Also, don't use too much glue as this glue expands as it sets and could potentially cause bubbling on your surface.

That's it. If done carefully, your table should be just like new. I ended up with one little spot beside the goal where there was a bit of a bubble from the glue, but it barely affects gameplay, certainly nothing like the delamination problem.  The second end  turned out perfectly.

Hope that helps someone down the road, pictures to follow shortly.
Aaron
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: aaronfay on December 31, 2012, 01:46:36 AM
As a follow-up to my previous post, here are some photos. I also want to note, without the curing time, the whole process took me approximately 3 hours.

Lifting the plastic end plates reveals staples
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DaTUtJbKmp8/UOEnAYtJjrI/AAAAAAAAByQ/_3wH1vNc6vM/s907/IMG_20121230_220718.jpg)

Outside screws to remove
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oOyt3bb_M_0/UOEqtN1bjTI/AAAAAAAAB1Y/n47FppWufC0/s907/photo.jpg)

Slowly wiggle the end panel off
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rJi7QPhFndE/UOEme-ZcyLI/AAAAAAAABxo/eaWWMmfuHFo/s907/IMG_20121230_220233.jpg)

Remove the 4 silver screws on the goal board
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nVodMfrm4lE/UOEsY4m6PII/AAAAAAAAB3o/YMNVpMFxg0E/s907/photo.jpg)

Separating the ball return
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uEWIBZDbhzQ/UOEmTi6Kg1I/AAAAAAAABxY/OdZno04030M/s907/IMG_20121230_220005.jpg)

Breaking the staples on the goal board
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9wUDZ6lcXec/UOEmH867m6I/AAAAAAAABxI/TIdS9QZ1SrI/s907/IMG_20121230_215733.jpg)

Wiggle the goal board out
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-11K2nTLdKC0/UOEtPyv8lgI/AAAAAAAAB4E/1rXd4HhR5dY/s907/photo.jpg)

Slide the board along into place to squeeze glue toward the end
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KRyLq6IeEHo/UOEl63rx49I/AAAAAAAABww/NPyRVQa1-jI/s907/IMG_20121230_214934.jpg)

Maintain even pressure (as much as possible) on the board
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-l8nn1nLCDpQ/UOEltpb8-bI/AAAAAAAABwY/vcgDyAW9ums/s907/IMG_20121230_214714.jpg)

I'm not bending the bars, but the wedges were hard to put in, there's decent pressure on the surface
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0JNZLC6seII/UOEl2qFaU9I/AAAAAAAABwo/rNfIhAWSpNk/s907/IMG_20121230_214744.jpg)

The glue after about 5 minutes, PL Premium expands (kinda foams)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-91tpensDCyQ/UOElyEY6EQI/AAAAAAAABwg/bK5z-dtY0gA/s907/IMG_20121230_214723.jpg)

Cleanup, after about 8 hours, glue cuts off fairly easily and is quite hard
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Jg0_fD5Wlt0/UOEl-qbrEjI/AAAAAAAABw4/PV4X7QhVMh4/s907/IMG_20121230_215105.jpg)

I put the staples back in, but taped it also to be safe
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nyD_I0TQkhk/UOEmX_2vxdI/AAAAAAAABxg/fvF1WCNsY2o/s907/IMG_20121230_220127.jpg)

Done, and done.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7ms8wiWKrxM/UOEnKpgnPeI/AAAAAAAAByg/SkBajRJplGc/s907/IMG_20121230_220931.jpg)

In the pictures above, you can't see the delamination because I took them after I was finished gluing it, I still wanted to show some of the steps in case it might help someone down the road.

I also uploaded a quick video showing the end result, you can have a look here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyGIs5llVkk) if you're interested.

Regards,
Aaron
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: ponyboy on January 05, 2013, 07:46:10 PM
How did you attach these pic's. having a hard time figuring it out...thanks jeff
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: melster on May 29, 2013, 04:49:05 PM
Thanks a lot for posting your fix, Aaron.  I am getting ready to fix my Cyclone II that has a delamination issue as well.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: melster on June 03, 2013, 12:43:53 PM
FYI, the Cyclone II cabinet is built a lot differently from the Twister II.  >:( 

To remove the end panel, I'd have to take two of the legs off.  It only got progressively more complicated after that, and I wasn't able to get Tornado to send me details on the construction of the cabinet.

I ended up coming up with a slightly different fix.  I got a length of clear plastic tubing and a syringe that fit inside it.  I inserted the tubing as far as I could get it in.  I then connected the syringe to the tubing.  I removed the plunger, and proceeded to fill the syringe from the PL Premium cartridge.  I refilled the syringe about 4 times before I felt confident that I had gotten enough glue into the blister and surrounding area.  I flattened the field from the goal post in, then smoothed it out from the blister back to the goal just to attempt to make sure that I got glue everywhere.

I used a wooden chess board and a couple of stacks of Gourmet magazine to weight down the board.  :-)  I then used the rods to push down the magazines.  Since the magazines were pretty flexible, I just had to rotate the rods until the robot men's heads pushed down the magazines firmly. 

It looks like it has done the job.  The blister is gone, and the surface is nice and flat again.  I'm hoping this is a permanent fix, but only time will tell.
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: wokbelly on June 05, 2013, 10:32:07 PM
This is clearly a factory defect i posted the same problem http://foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=5194.0 with a friend's T3000 doing the same thing obviously poor quality adhesive i have not found out if tornado did anything for him yet >:( when i do i will post it
Title: Re: playing surface delaminating
Post by: statevector on October 29, 2023, 11:53:38 AM
I also have a Cyclone II that had a delamination issue.  Since I'm not a carpenter, I went for a less invasive solution.
I was able to reach into the goal and lift the surface up just enough to insert a surgical tube.  I got a bin of the clear gorilla glue.  It has lower viscosity and does not foam up like the regular version.
I got a syringe set with 13" surgical tubing online.  I started with water because the glue instructions recommended it. I lifted the surface enough to get in there and inject a little water.  I used a hair dryer to heat the surface and massaged it. I then took the syringe and used it to inject the glue.  I did 4 batches to cover the area where it let go.  Next was more heating and massaging the surface to get the glue to spread out as much as possible. Then  I put down heavy books and a heavy bin.  I let it sit for 2 nights.
It now appears to be fixed but time will tell.