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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: Old Meister on February 14, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
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I played a big tourney recently and opted for one of the DYP's. My partner was a skilled player that I had never met, I thought we were going to make a statement. I played back and was totally surprised at the fact that he didn't like my defense and decided to coach me during our matches. I'm 57 years old, started playing in '74. Well you get the picture,,, needless to say it didn't go well. When I partner with someone I try to build them up not tear them down and try to rebuild them on the spot. I like to be cerebral in the duration of the match and might play "light defense" in some areas that I'm totally aware of. The time to clamp down is towards the latter part of the match so as to confuse the offense. I've done this a lot of times and try to get control of the game because of it. I expect my partner to leave me to my task and he does his, SCORE! I'm bringing this up just to open this topic up for scrutiny and hopefully positive feedback so others realize, RESPECT YOUR PARTNER! Accept that he has his vision and live with it and hope he will do the same on his end. 8)
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Man, I play 'light defense' all the time, even when I'm trying hard not to! :)
Tyler
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I like to be cerebral in the duration of the match and might play "light defense" in some areas that I'm totally aware of. The time to clamp down is towards the latter part of the match so as to confuse the offense.
So its ok to play light defense as long as you are aware of it? If you clamped down on the first ball all the way to the last, don't you think you would block more? and confuse the defense even more? I cant say i understand your logic..... If I was your partner I wouldn't say anything to you because I don't like coaching mid game, but I would feel a lot more pressure to score when you are playing "light" and getting scored on....I would either try to switch serves so I can play nets on their serve, or play just as light as you do and kinda give up...... you cant have 1 player playing light and expect your partner to play hard.
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Gotta agree with Rob on this one. As a forward, it gets much harder to score when your partner is playing "light". Now I understand giving the other team a few different looks to figure out weaknesses but I would also start coaching my goalie if he was not playing hard every ball. Also, the fact that you have been playing since '74 would not deter me from giving you advice (I was born in '82). I play with lots of players that are much older than me and have been playing for decades before I was born. If they are doing something bad/wrong I am going to tell them. I am not an ass about it, but I'm not afraid to tell them. If he is a good player maybe you should listen to his advice. All that said, there does need to be a certain level of respect between partners or it just won't work.
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I'd really have to see how this went down, since if you were getting scored on consistently, coughing up rebounds, and not adapting then I could see why you were getting coached. Noone should ever consider themselves above getting tips from another player. However, the delivery when giving tips from a lot of players also leaves a lot to be desired. There's a difference to "Your defence sucks, stop playing so light," and "That forward has a much harder time against fast moving D than slow ones." I can definitely see both sides to this story.
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I play defense the most. Every ball is the last ball to me but it doesn't mean I will block it every time. I hear my coach (for lack of better word) voice in my head when I play telling me "if you being scored on try something different". I don't understand this "light defense".
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Before being to harsh on Old Meister a better definition of his "light defense" is needed. As for coaching someone you just met in a DYP- if they are not receptive stop trying to coach, it may help vent your frustration but it will not help the match and more than likely have the opposite effect.
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getting scored on consistently, coughing up rebounds, and not adapting then I could see why you were getting coached. Noone should ever consider themselves above getting tips from another player.
I took from this that being coached is the same thing as getting tips....
I agree with giving tips. Things such as: telling your partner information that you know that he may not know. Ex. "John Doe loves to go pull side on his snake, short or long, but he never moves the ball more than an inch on his push side." That is information that the goalie can use to defend your opponent. But if you tell your partner "You should play a reverse defense and force him to shoot a long push" I find a problem with that. Maybe hes not comfortable with a reverse D. Maybe he does what you say but then gets scored on anyway. Then what defense is he supposed to use? No one likes a backseat driver, and when your "coaching" during a match that is what you are doing IMHO.
All this really depends on your opinion of coaching and light playing...
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Thank you Bolt 115, and Rob, you nailed it with your last statement. Perhaps the term,"light defense" was an unfortunate choice of words. I've watched a lot of matches of the PM's playing on Youtube and they do the same thing as what I'm talking about. You identify their strengths and take them away one by one so as to make them be guessing and uncertain. Is that a worse way than having them figure you out and leave you guessing towards the end? Anyway, my point is that none of what my partner did was helpful to me or our cause and it left me bummed that it had to be that way. I've shut down some really good pro's and PM's when I got it working, I just have to be able to think and respond rather than deal with a misguided partner who's in my ear.
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OM,
You are correct that input from a partner can range from constructive to destructive, with a lot of room between those extremes. So many times it's not what you say, but how you say it and that element of individuality can easily come into play on a foos table. When giving advice during a match, it would seem correct to pay attention to whether your words are being welcomed or not, then act accordingly.
I think the 'light defense' comment raised a few eyebrows because of your follow up comment about the time to clamp down being in the latter parts of the match. If a DYP partner sees a 'not clamping down' level of effort at the beginning of a match I think I would expect to hear something! It's a great topic for conversation because effective communication with a partner can have a big effect on results.
Take care......................................Tyler
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^^Good post Tyler. Hit the nail on the head.
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I agree, after reading my original post I could see how it was interpreted that way. The scenario was we were playing the #2 guy in the tournament, #1 being Ryan Moore. I was surprised to see him go to the front pin offense as the last time I played him I shut that down and made him switch from it. It was clear that he was on his game as he made good on his first two possessions going both pull side and push side. He's hitting both sides so I spread a bit more while doing a switching defense, dang, he hits a back cut middle! About this time my forward, who hasn't scored, tells me not to use the reverse defense anymore. I can hear a bit of angst in his voice, not at all what I need from him. I need strategy not limiting restrictions. I'm taking mental notes the whole game and certainly will switch things up both in defense positions and also timing and baits and spread. Our opponent was hitting on all cylinders and the only way to have a chance to win was to block a percentage that was higher than the opposing goalie. That didn't happen. My partner made a couple other statements that were less than supportive all the while not doing any better himself on his end. Before the match ended we switched and he didn't come close to blocking anything and my 5 bar was no match for our opponent, he ate me up. It was the old, "Don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes." I try to be supportive and respectful to my partner regardless of his skill set, that's where the most fun is had and the best results happen. I don't blame my partner for us losing, I will always put that on myself. But I do know what it takes to win and a obvious show of disrespect for your partner early in the match is not the way to do it.
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Hey, I'm relatively new to the game but I thought I'd add my two cents.
When I'm playing goalie and someone is lighting me up with thier 3 bar I feel you have two questions to ask:
"What could I be doing better, like an adjustment of timing or zone?"
AND
"What is my foward doing to prevent the ball from going to the other players 3 bar so damn often?"
Yeah, in doubles it's obviously a team effort but I feel that it's 99% the forwards fault for losing. Other player smoking shots past you? Hey, why doesn't the forward help you out and have a better 5 bar defense? Why doesn't he stop worrying about MY game when what he should be doing is getting the ball and scoring some? I think that it's a goalies job to make a couple stops, shoot or clear the ball and the rest should really be about the forward. Which is why I don't feel comfortable playing forward yet; if we lose I feel mostly responsible.
I understand I got off topic a little bit but when it comes to your front guy trying to "coach" his goalie in the middle of a match my response in my head is , "Hey, why don't you stop talking, make it easier on me by shutting down his 5 bar, get with it and f----ing score some? You're the reason he's getting all the opportunities to shoot, not me."
I agree with OM that when I lose in doubles I'll usually always take the blame UNLESS my partner keeps turning to me after they score and puts all the weight on me first. I KNOW I let a shot in but what are YOU doing to make sure that doesn't keep happening?
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When I'm playing goalie and someone is lighting me up with thier 3 bar I feel you have two questions to ask:
"What could I be doing better, like an adjustment of timing or zone?"
AND
"What is my foward doing to prevent the ball from going to the other players 3 bar so damn often?"
"Hey, why doesn't the forward help you out and have a better 5 bar defense? Why doesn't he stop worrying about MY game when what he should be doing is getting the ball and scoring some? "
Why would you feel the need to worry about your partners 5 bar defense? That doesn't help you in anyway to prevent being scored on after being lit up. You can't you expect your partner to stop worrying about your game if you are worrying about his at the same time?
You should only concern yourself with things that you can control. You cant control your partner so you should not worry about his defense or 5 bar defense. All you can do is be a good team mate and help motivate your partner to play hard and hopefully he will do the same for you. Too many people get caught up worrying about their partners weakness' when they should really focus on their opponents weakness' and then exploit them.
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Here's another nightmare, writing a reply for 15 minutes on this forum and suddenly it just disappears before you can post it! This has happened to me several times here and it's very frustrating.
Playing goalie is a mental game that takes focus and concentration. Forwards who hassle their goalie are hurting their team by distracting their partner.
There. My first comment was better and full of thoughtful commentary but it disappeared into the ether, so I'll just post what I wrote and run away before this one vanishes, too.
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Ha Ha thats some funny sh**! I am with you guys on this one, goalies that feel less pressured normally play better. I will say I have been guilty of this in the past as I started out playing nets for my buddy and teacher of the game. He was pretty rough on me although I idolized his amazing skills. When I switched to playing forward I caught myself more than once fragging my novice goalkeeper. I have found that explaining standard zone defense eliminates alot of early problems, experience talks in this game/sport and the ones that won't listen to any of your advice are most likely going to be forever stuck with weak game. Snake
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Don't worry about it OM, I doubt that your partner could do much better or he would have been smart enough to make a strategic switch when he realized that the combination of you getting lit up and he getting blanked and allowing your opponent a disastrous amount of possessions isn't going to win the match. A good forward is like a good quarterback, he has to know when to try a TD pass, and when to hand off. A good forward would realize that something needed to be done to break the opponents' momentum, and that something isn't letting the opposing forward have the satisfaction of seeing a meltdown and knowing that he is in your forwards' head. To me one facet of being a great forward is to know when their own game is on the fritz and try to fix themselves before they start making their goalie the goat. Unfortunately there are many out there whose egos won't let them do anything but go down in flames and play the blame game rather than swallowing their pride and mixing things up a bit. They may find if they would play more as a TEAM and less as the designated "boss" then more wins would result with goalies that they don't often play with. One of my biggest pet peeves is when my forward self-destructs and instead of taking a deep breath (and allowing me to do the same) after I get scored on, instead just immediately puts the next ball in play without thought, gets his pass stolen and now it is again on the opposing forwards' 3row within 15 seconds of their last score. That puts a lot of pressure on a goalie as well as giving the opposing forwards' muscle memory another quick shot. I don't think there is anyone who won't agree that the less an opposing forward has the ball on their 3row then the higher the chance that they may not convert their next scoring opportunity due to their own frustration and wanting to "quick shoot" or even just a product of their arm "cooling off".
I know you are good at keeping stats, so next time keep a mental record of how many blocks, clears, successful passes and scores you make versus how many easy rebounds, poor passes, or poor shots you coughed up to the opposing forward in a given match. If your percentages are on the plus side, then your forward needs to put up, or STFU. If you are making it easy on the opposing forward through poor decisions in your own play, then you are indeed putting a lot of pressure on your forward's mental game, which may not be as good as he thinks. And don't beat yourself up over it, there are many good forwards that can only play at a high level when they have their favorite goalie in the nets, but when they don't get the safety net of having a solid brickwall goalie then that is the true measure of their mental toughness by figuring out how to adjust their OWN game to turn things around. If they can't do that, then maybe THEY shouldn't be playing forward.
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Thanks for the note, Wildcard.
Your comments are intelligent, interesting and true. A forward who is rattled and trying for the quick score rather than taking a deep breath and thinking about how to optimize his play is a lot like a poker player who just took a big hit and goes on tilt. He starts playing weak hands over aggressively and his opponents see this and take advantage of him, i.e., they smell blood and move in for the kill.
When your emotions affect your play, in either poker or foosball, it's time to take a timeout.
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The point or gist of this thread was to show how hard it is to get into a good place mentally when your partner disrespects your game. I don't put any blame on my forward for not blocking better as that WAS on me. The problem I had was how quickly this partner took it upon himself to "train me" thus disrespecting me which really threw me off. The player we were playing is a complete player, really smart, does excellent reads and execution. The only way to beat him is to catch him on a bad day or you really have a good day. He was really really good that day and I was trying to pull something out of my butt to put him off. How can you do that when your forward then decides to take it upon himself to tell you not to do this and to do that? It was a nightmare and that is why I shared it. Playing really good and smart players requires a lot of thought and concentration and strategy. Strategy doesn't happen without thought and concentration and you can't have that without a clear path to operate, which is something a partner has to allow to happen, be on the same side, not against you.