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Title: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: VRViperII on September 27, 2006, 05:57:49 PM
I've always shot using the wrist method.  By wrist method I mean that you hold the rod such that your thumb is at 9 oclock.  When you shoot, you twist your wrist clockwise then counter clockwise fast to shoot.  But lately my shot power doesn't seem to be improving anymore and someone taught me an alternative way of shooting, which I call the palm method.

In the palm method, you hold the rod such that your thumb is at 12 o'clock (top of the rod handle).  When you shoot, you slide your hand/palm down and quickly run it back up (something like the end part of a snake).

After a few tests, I find that the palm method SEEMS to be faster.  Since I just knew about this a while ago, it's going to take me a while to learn this new method.  Most of the better foosball players here that I see hold it using the palm method.  So the question is, is the palm method really better, or is it just personal preference?
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: snake eyes on September 28, 2006, 09:58:44 AM
I prefer the wrist style, my shot is faster and alot more accurate. occasionally i will toss in a palm roll pull kick (aka) Chris Dube.

Snake
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Daniel on October 03, 2006, 01:49:48 AM
You can see a poll on this here

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=502.0
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: invisiblesmoke on January 14, 2008, 02:03:38 AM
Know how to do both.  If you are asking a question like this, you should also ask questions about stance to go along with it.
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 14, 2008, 07:12:22 PM
Both have their advantages...and depend on what shot you are using. If your shooting a pull shot it is more consistant to shoot closed handed, because as soon as the foot of the man comes off the ball you cannot possibly hit it in the same spot every single time!!! One time you may shoot it on an angle the next it may be squared off,..you never know..You also allow the goalie to see(telegraphing) what you are doing because of the wind you have to do. That gives them a split second more time to block you. Shooting the push ...it is much better to use the open handed method...but it still is inconsistant!!! if you must use it try practicing not coming up off the ball as much. That is what I had to do with my shot and found I am much much more consistant than ever.  Still not enough... And yes your stance is everything!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: chance37 on January 15, 2008, 09:01:25 AM
the wrist shot doesn't wear on your wrist as bad.......the palm is more accurate.for most
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 15, 2008, 10:50:08 AM
the palm roll is not more accurate than a wrist shot for 99% of the things you would use it for

every good player can do both
when you use one or the other is based on the shot you choose
it is basic knowlege that the palm is used on certain shots and the wrist others
As with the push shot, you may find an exception to the rule but as I stated in that post, the rule is there for a reason and it is not wise to build key elements of your game around the exception when you have a choice

SHOTS AND CIRCUMSTANCE TO USE THE WRIST OR PALM ROLL (OPEN HANDED)

WRITST SHOTS

Pull shot - nearly 100%...out of the top 100 pull shot shooters (proven tournament history not local legend) none have ever used a palm roll to shoot their pull...this is true on the 3 and 2 bars
Pushkick - same as pull
Backpin - well, it doesn't have the history and despite someone on here saying they shoot a backpin succesfully using a palm roll, if you want to have a competition level backpin you will use your wrist
Sling shot - wrist only or you will launch the ball right off the table
Push from goal - the only time knowing players might use the open hand is if they are wanting to do a long and they want to square it off but if you are going to do that, you might as well shoot the pushkick.

PALM ROLL

Euro Pin -   nearly 100% just like pull only palm roll...I have seen people try and do this without using a palm roll, especially when trying to shoot the push side using the palm roll since that is so hard to do, but of the many proven Euro Pins from Europe (strangly enough eh ;)) they are all palm rolls
Rollover - Well, not really a palm roll but it is definately not a wrist shot except that it starts on your wrist...100% roll  :D
Bank Shots from the 2 rod - you can hit a bank with your wrist but it isn't as crsip or accurate and it is very hard on your wrist
Pull Kick from 3 rod - many more people who shoot this as a competition shot use the palm roll for all the options which move the ball from 3rd man to the 2 man and wrist for all the inside 3rd man pull options with the exception of a standing angle these are a little more mixed but I think it leans toward the wrist.  Some people will use the wrist with pick up shots and tic tac shots but for those who use it as a primary competition shot, I think you will find the largest group doing a palm roll...very natural feel, very hard, very fast, and can go very deep...I think this is the most accurate palm roll especially on Tornado...some other tables I would rank the bank shot from goal equally accurate but given the shape of the front foot on the Tornado man, the bank is not as accurate
Pull Kick from the 2 rod - now this is a complete mixed bag...I think you will see many of both and even from the same players.  as an example Todd Loffredo uses both...I think a lot of this depends on two things...if you are wanting to cut your pullkick back (the "7") then you will get the best results from your wrist because it is more accurate and allows you to preform the brush motion needed to preform the "7"...if you want straight on goal power you go open hand/palm roll...however, this can be dependent somewhat on the table and ball conditions because if the ball is fying off the table easily, then the wrist shot is probably the better option assuming you don't want to be launching the ball off the table every time you attempt the thing
Tic Tac from 3 bar - you will find both, more likely palm rolls on pull kick side than pushkick side but you will see many tic tacs done using the wrist in all circumstances
Push from 3 bar - now this is a totally mixed bag..plenty of both...open handed allows you to hit it harder, longer, and more square (all things being equal) the wrist will give you more accuracy inside and can still be powerful but there is nothing quite like a violent opened handed long push (unless you see me shoot one with my wrist >:()

the palm roll takes a little longer to do and so for things where you need a quicker response or more accurate strike you will use the wrist (pull, Pushkick, "7")...for those things where time isn't so much of an issue (pullkicks and banks) and/or you want more power (banks or showy tic tacs) then the palm roll is the way to go
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 15, 2008, 10:56:00 AM
oh, by the way...it is called a "palm" roll because you are only supposed to roll it to your palm...if you are wearing your wrist down then your roll is too long and needs to be shortened
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 15, 2008, 06:35:25 PM
I use both methods VERY successfully depending on what is given to me at the time. Other people know a thing or two about this game too you know??????????? I just want to help anywhere I can just like the next guy!!!!! Everyone isn't the same.. so different advice is ok.???   If you seen my backpin you would understand why I shoot it.    Even most of the pro-masters I know suggest staying with it. I also do other shots pretty good if I may say so, and for the record I did say that the "palm roll" is NOT as accurate.
I am an exception to the rule though... lol

Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 15, 2008, 10:37:50 PM
chance 37 said the palm roll was more accurate

i would love to see your 3 bar palm roll backpin

like I said, there is an exception to every rule but if I am coaching people starting out I am going to give them the more tried and true higher percentage advice and not start them down a road of trying to be the exception

they can develop their own unique styles, approaches, stategies after they understnad the basics

this may not be the best way but I think it is the smartest way which is why I approach it the way that I do

I mean, this is coming from a guy who shoots a backpin as my primary shot and I think the backpin has the most potential of any shot on the 3 bar but it takes a very very significant committment to make it a consistent threat against all kinds of defenses like the proven shots in the game today

i love diversity and would love to play your palm roll backpin some day and maybe we will get that chance, you never know
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: chance37 on January 16, 2008, 09:48:41 AM
bb....wish i could even shoot a backpin...but I can't Im just a rook....I actually had a brain fart and was thinking a wrist shot compared to a close handed shot...but I would think that the palm roll on a pull shot would be easier at first to learn and control due to the distance down your hand the handle goes and the more you have to time....?????  Ive read about every post on this site...and love getting all the info you guys give....I am ocd and watch every video often getting laughed at...But to be a master I realize its gonna take all of my focus and hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of hours and years of dedication.  I just wish i had a coach that could work with my game technically.  There are guys here that give pointers...but what I've learned thus far is what I see on the internet and instructioal DVDs.  But won't be long and Ill be moving to Austin..plenty of great players there...I'd pay for training and coaching, but i feel that once I meet a great coach he'll see my dedication and ability to learn really fast and help...hopefully
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on January 16, 2008, 11:35:02 AM
look at the top players in the world... how many of them shoot open handed shots??? ZERO!!!!  Fredrico shoots a Euro-Pin which is open handed by nature, but for the most part he is wrist.

Open handed shots are for hacks!!!   ;o)

the only advantage is that they offer more power. Wrist shots are more accurate, faster, and can have equal power after a bit of practice.

when you are shooting your wrist style, put the ball back just behind the rod so it kind of pinches between the man and table surface, and you will see that your shot will have more velocity
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 16, 2008, 12:24:43 PM
Rios,

have you ever seen Chris Dube play...I ask because he shoots an open-handed/palm roll pullkick and I don't think anyone is going to call Chris a hack and if you did, I think he might break your knee caps :P

Chance,
finding a coach in foosball is very very hard...the sport doesn't seem to attrack very many people with this kind of personality...try to not get disappointed if you can't find someone who will personally dedicate themselves to your growth...just keep asking questions and talking to people

you may find a situation where you get someone dedicated but in the mean time you can make a lot of progress the other way...Todd Loffredo has always had the questioning personality and he says he learns from people at every level...he just loves talking and learning and sharing...(side note, I wish he would make himself more available because I think he is the best communicator in the sport)

TL had the chance to room with a current great when he could dedicate full time to the sport...many of the best players have had a situation like that at some time or another

you are welcome to contact me any time, i will always answer...I may not know what you need but if I don't think I can help I will say so...if you can contact me on here or via email anytime

backpinrules@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on January 17, 2008, 02:30:43 AM
haha
naw I have never met him, but I have heard of him. I am sure that he is a good player. But like I said... how many of the top players in the world shoot open handed shots? I dont know what Chris is rated, but I would venture to guess that he is not above SemiPro... and if he is then he would be an exception to the open handed players... cause I have yet to see a Pro player and above consistantly use open handed shots as their main way of hitting the ball.

Dont get me wrong they do have their place.
Ex. Tony Spredeman uses an open handed pull kick right out of his stick lane, but then again Tony could probably use his feet to play and beat most people...

but as far as being consistant and high percentage shots.... wrist is the way to go
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: snake eyes on January 17, 2008, 10:07:25 AM
Actually Chris Dube is a Pro.....
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 17, 2008, 12:49:09 PM
Rios,

what is your point?  are you trying to bolster your arguement that no top players use a palm roll?  except of course Rico and all the top Euro players who shoot Euro Pins...you can't dismiss this like it isn't a palm roll, it is a perfect example of a palm roll

now, on tornado, outside of Rico or other Euro's you don't see many palm rolls...just a few pull kicks from the 2 bar

but the reason you don't see them isn't because they are hack shots...it is because the rollover and pull are just better competition shots on Tornado...

i do agree that it seems that the lower the level player the more likely they are to use a palm roll in a wild uncontrolled fashion...i.e. hack  :o but that doesn't mean open handed stuff is for hacks  :D

Do you know who Chris Dube is?  Apparently not or you wouldn't take a shot at him like that...Chris Dube is still listed as a PM with USTSA points -  he only plays occasionally now days but he was a feared top pro-master from 1994-1998 and still commands a lot of respect from top PM's...Chris is one of the last great pullkicks and until you see him shoot, it is too hard to explain how good a palm roll can be

on a side note, it is really sad we don't get to see great pullkicks, pushkicks, and backpins...or even Euro pins (I mean American Tornado foosball)...

Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: PatRyan on January 17, 2008, 12:51:17 PM
Actually Chris Dube is a Pro.....

Chris is rated Master, and a Former National Doubles Champ.  He is a phenomenal player and a pleasure to watch play.  And his pullkick is a thing of beauty.

Pat Ryan
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Billings Semi-pro on January 17, 2008, 12:53:13 PM
I use both the palm roll and wrist for the front pin.  For me, it depends on what I am trying to do.  Palm rolls work fine as long as you can square to ball off on the white lines (deadman areas).  If running a series of front pin shots against a good defense, I would suggest using them both.  I use both the palm roll and wrist for different reasons.  Open hand bank shots are cool.  Wrist shots are awesome to make.  Tic-tac closed handed brushes are nasty.  Pull shots are be better if shot by the wrist.  However, be careful shooting with the wrist from the goal.  If your shot is to slow it will get stuffed.  I can't count how many shots I stuffed from goalies shooting with the wrist and visa versa with the open hand.  Just make sure your wrist shot is as fast as possible and do not telegraph it.  Overall, I say learn them both as you may find them both useful in their own ways.
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 17, 2008, 01:12:41 PM
Rios,
Actually Rico does use a open handed europin not wrist.  He doesn't go as far up in the air as most people do with the palm roll but if you look at his shot it is open.  I used to use the same method

 bbtuna,

 I hear you!!! I wasn't trying to start somthing as i was defending myself when you said "despite someone on here saying...." I have had the opportunity to teach many of the players in my area for a long time now and I understand the game as well as anyone in the game and enjoy it to it's fullest. That's all. My passion for this game is ...undying if you will and the more advice we all can give to those who would like to learn this game the better. I like reading what you have to say . It'sobvious you know about the game I just want to put in what I may feel and know as well!!        

As far as playing each other that would be great!! I'd love to see your backpin as well. Spree told me he had not seen someone shoot it as fast as I did or the way I did either, and said I shouldn't shoot anything else. So I have definatly put practice in to perfect it the way I have,  and when it does not work (yes it happens..lol) I shoot my pull.


Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: bbtuna on January 18, 2008, 12:16:17 AM
foosaround,

i didn't feel you started anything and i wasn't trying to either...I didn't remember who it was that said they shot the palm roll pin so i definately wasn't taking shots at anyone in particular

as a matter of fact, i wasn't taking a shot at all...this is a perfect example of the exception vs the rule...I say if you can do it than more power to you, it is exciting, i love diversity in the game

my point is only that when trying to give advice to a beginner or fairly new player, I am not going to teach exceptions...that is why you don't see me telling any of these people to shoot a backpin...I think it is a great shot with great potential but it takes a giant commitment for someone to develop it to tournament level...I think it is the best shot on the table and I think it is the hardest shot to learn

so, i always tell people starting and wondering what to shoot to choose a pull or rollover and probably the rollover because in the big picture, it is the easiest shot to learn, has the least wear on a person physically, and is very rewarding when it goes in (fast, loud, and fancy) and it has a wow factor for the spectator

my philosophy is to teach basics, fundementals, standards, "rules", and then as the base of tried and tested stuff grows, then add in the fancy stuff, the lower percentage stuff, the "exception" stuff

as they get a feel for the basics, I believe it is then that a person can make decisions in developing their own unique style

if I could train someone and really influence their growth I would make them forget talk of choosing "the" shot and "the" pass series...we would have some basic stuff in mind but I would, as the trainer, have the player practice ball control at a minimum of 75% of the time...the best players in the world, today and yesterday, are the players with the best ball control...ball control will teach you all kinds of things you can use when learning shots and passes...the better your ball control the shorter your learning curve is for other things...a significant part of this game is possesion and ball control is one of the keys to getting and keeping possesions

I won't say any more on that for now but one of these days I will do a data dump on ball control

by the way, I really hope we get to play some time, I would love to see your shot and I bet wiht that shot you have other creative things in your game...Tony Spree would know about backpins, his dad is a backpin shooter I have been told...I bet Tony has a wicked backpin...after you said that i realized i was at a Tourny with Tony and it never dawned on me to ask him about it or to play him and get some feedback...hmm, maybe next time

any way, cheers and fooson foosaround
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: gcp on January 22, 2008, 06:44:30 AM
"And yes your stance is everything!!!!!!!"

Please explain, what the "proper" stance is. I've often thought about it but have always played instinctively. No one ever taught me so I am sure I do many things wrong but some time analysis, paralysis....

Thanks,
gcp
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 22, 2008, 08:14:13 AM
Bbtuna, what is your back pin series? I'm curious because a lot of my game was off the back pin and wonder if the same shots are still used today.
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: EDGEER on January 22, 2008, 11:19:50 AM
Fred is a freak at is not a valid example.  Nobody else in the world shoots like him, period.  If you are playing on Tornado only, I would stick to rollovers and pull shots.  They are easier to learn and as you get more experienced then venture of into others.

By the way Tuna failed to mention Dube is a Midg.....  little person with a cannon for a right arm.  An he like Fred is unique.  Now if you are 36" tall and built like a brick house you might be able to shoot like Dube.  ;)
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on January 23, 2008, 12:14:17 AM
BBTuna, when did I take a shot at Chris? And more importantly why would I take a shot at him???  I already said that I dont know him and that I have only heard of him.  All that I said is that I have never known a Pro level player or above to shoot an open hand shot. I also said that Rico uses a Euro-Pin which is open handed by nature.
Now if you said that Chris is a Pro or Promaster, then he is an exception to the rule. But, like I said the "Best" players in the world do not shoot open handed shots as their main shot!!!
Now you mentioned Chris as a Pro level player that shoots an open handed shot... do you know of another one???

And as far as seeing a good pull kick.... I just played against Thor Donovan a couple of weeks ago. SO I would say I know what a good pull kick looks like and he shoots his wrist style.

I am sorry, but I guess in this day and age a strictly open handed shooter just isnt going to win. Minus, Fredrico who shoots the Euro...
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 23, 2008, 08:03:18 AM
You know, I keep seeing you guys touting this idea that you have to play like this pro or that pro and how this guy is the exception to the rule and so on and so forth. Each of these top pro's got there by playing to their strengths. If it works, use it, if it don't, then don't. The difference in speed and look between the palm and wrist is again up to the individual. According to some here a palm push shot is dead on arrival,,,,
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: chance37 on January 23, 2008, 08:53:23 AM
the one guy ive played against that shoots a good palm euro shot is also short and like ed said built like a brick house......thats funny.....
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: snake eyes on January 23, 2008, 09:55:05 AM
Yes there is Thor Donovan from South Dakota. Open Handed pull kick...
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on January 23, 2008, 10:40:34 AM
Thor is from Des Moines, Iowa
and he shoots his pull kick closed handed...

My whole argument was that if you look at the top players in the world NOBODY shoots an open handed shot! With the exception of the Euro-pin. Now... I totally understand that if you are good at an open handed shot then good, go with it.
But, is it a coincidence that NOBODY in the top 50 shoots an open handed shot????  I dont think so, there has to be something to it...

It is the same reason why NOBODY in the top 50 shoot a back-pin, push, push kick, or pull kick!!!  There has to be some kind of reasoning behind it... it is simply because those shots DO NOT WIN.

Believe me I love shooting those other shots! I think they are fun and different. But if I go to KY or Worlds or whatever.... I am shooting eaither a snake or a pull or if I was Fredrico... a Euro-pin
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: chance37 on January 23, 2008, 11:29:01 AM
i think the problem is it is hard to communicate thoughts and actually having people understand what you are tryig to say....most communication is nonverbal....in this case just sript....people love to prove points wrong and always love the opportunity....I am no exception...but rios you hit the nail on the head...how many pros do you see shooting free throws underhanded....I saw some guy set a world reord shooting underhanded....the variables for error on a pull kick are greater than a snake or pull...NOT SAYING IT CANT BE MASTERED AND USED....so for a learning and up-n-comer why not learn the shots that give you less trouble....whats funny is my first shot was a pull kick open handed and worked great against my buddies...but when i took it to a tournament it worked not so good....so I learned a snake...with better results....I love the puulkick shot, think its great, and would love to see those guys listed shoot it....but If teaching someone the game I would advise against it if seriously thinking to compete at the highest level...I just hope to get to another level sometime this year
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: gcp on January 23, 2008, 07:47:32 PM
And now the the mutual posturing BS is over can we go back to the basics and talk about stance please? I did ask the question..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on January 23, 2008, 09:20:49 PM
I actually talked to Tony Spredeman about this once. He explained it pretty good.

Step up to the table like you are going to throw a punch, or get into a boxers stance. That way your hips are out of the way when you bring your arm through for a pull snake or a pull

that is the best way to explain it without physically being there...
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: wildcard on January 24, 2008, 01:06:23 AM
Tony Vogel from St Louis has a wicked blistering openhanded palm roll pullkick. You may know him from playing at Tulsa events with Brian Shell.
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 25, 2008, 01:28:49 AM
There's is a guy Tim miller  who does the fastest and hardest open hand pull kick I have ever seen... and accurate...wow!!!! Mike Stahl does too..
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 25, 2008, 01:49:17 AM
gcp

Stance?? Good question!!! Personally again it is about what is comfortable to you and what shot you shoot. Not standing toostraight up and not too far down. Keep on adjusting your stance with different shots to see what works for you,then stick to it. There is no exact science because everyone is different. Tall, short and so on...Just get a good base keep your arms loose and get the feel you need for your shot. If I suggest my stance it might not work for you or anyone else for that matter. So do what is good for you. But if something isn't working, switch it up until you find it. That is how I did it. And when I switch it now I can't shoot right...lol...Good luck!!!! 8)
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: chance37 on January 25, 2008, 11:25:58 AM
ive read that you want to be in a position that is stable.....If i were to tie a rope around your waist and pull from the side it wouldn't pull you over or throw you off......so much of the power comes from your hips....As in any other sport balance is key.....
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 25, 2008, 09:59:57 PM
Let's not forget finesse. That palm shot feels good when you hammer it and you might imagine the place going quiet at the sound of it slamming the goal, but how sweet to follow it with a 'touch' back angle wrist shot that completely throws the goalie for a loop. Stay flexible,,,,
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: B,inSA on January 26, 2008, 04:19:37 AM
great thread
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: gcp on January 26, 2008, 07:02:34 AM
foosinaround and chance, thank you.

Truth is when I learned this game in Greece, 35 years ago, no one told us how to do what and why. Hours over the tables made us instinctive players. But as an engineer I like to analyze things for possible improvement. Now I'm afraid I'm too old to learn new foos tricks so I'll probably continue to be nothing more than an instinctive player. Truth is my stance question had more to do with eventual back pain then anything else. But I guess I should be discussing my pains with my doctor... :D
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 26, 2008, 12:53:19 PM
OM

   You r so right !!!! I love nothing more to have a goalie who starts to leave me a middle thinking I'm going to do another lightning fast pull side or push and I finesse it in the middle.(with wrist) The last state championship, I did just that most of the day. It was a thing to see goalies get so frustrated with not knowing what I was going to do!
It's like football, the run opens the pass and the pass opens the run!



Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 27, 2008, 08:52:27 AM
F69, It sounds like we play a similar game. When you make that back cut through the middle, nothing is sweeter than to see the furrowed eyebrows of the goalie, lol. Then you get to hit him hard with something again just to drive the point home. ;D
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 28, 2008, 10:02:42 PM
oh yah!!! :D  Did it against a pro-master team that was supposed to beat us and they were stunned from the sweet dink middle brush...man that was sweeeeet...and we won. :o I must of done that shot about 7-8 times in that match. Course the deadman pull side did open it up >:( 8)  It happens to angle alot too!!  :-\
Om, where r u from?? do you  go to local regionals??
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 29, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
F69, I grew up in northern Wisconsin but have lived in Oregon since '79. As far as where I play, that is a problem in that I haven't been into the bar scene for quite a while so my play is limited to home for now. I watch the styles and shots on Youtube and  work on those things that these Tornado tables have changed from the FS tables. When a decent tournament comes around I want to be ready. I've heard of a few locations around and one within 40 miles so maybe I'll drop in and test the waters on the local talent. My wife has surprised me by getting her game back much more easily than I. When we first moved to Oregon we went to  the local tournament and we skunked the first team we played. They were fast to react to my pins and reversals but she plays the off speed game and picked them apart from in back, every point! It turns out that they had won every tournament in the area for the past few months and were also bad sports about it. We never did make friends with those guys. ;D Right now I'm working on the snake. Oh how I hate following the crowd but this is neccesary I guess. Foos is different nowadays, to be sure, but a person has to grow. I quit playing in '82 and bought a table a few months ago, so that's where I'm at. I feel my game is around 80%. I have good days but still need some time just getting used to how touchy the handling is. I want to pin too hard on catches and that is really frustrating as the ball squirts away and I did alot of shots that I circled the ball with touches but these men seem longer and that makes that move hard and dangerous. But I've noticed that tic tac shots and passing is alot easier. My 5 bar is almost as good as it ever was. Where you from F69?
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on January 31, 2008, 02:42:24 AM
OM

   I'm from Michigan. Funny thing is last night I used my backpin dink brush to perfection. I'm slammin em home all night, no dinks, and match point came...they switched after I called time out...he left me the middle so wide I couldn't resist...game over. :'( >:( Afterward a few people said they certainly weren't expecting that...but hey the guy who switched to goalie was blocking me all night, so I had to do something different..huh? Too much fun.  I love this game :D
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on January 31, 2008, 08:02:15 AM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: snake eyes on February 01, 2008, 02:17:52 PM
My mistake. I am guessing Merlin Armot is from Iowa also...Frank Belachea shoot a push kick but not sure if it's open or closed.
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Old Meister on February 02, 2008, 11:11:04 PM
I use a front pin pull kick open palm that I go all three lanes if that is where I have to go. It's funny but in reading defense it seems they are either strong on push or strong on pull but then they are weak on pull or weak on push.  So then the game is execution, having the shots to take advantage, having the passing game to get the ball to then take advantage. This game is about breaking it down to the basic elements and deciding for yourself where you attack the most efficiently. You build your arsenal of shots and make wise use of them, that is the game,,,,
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: foosinaround69 on February 02, 2008, 11:27:46 PM
Very well spoken my friend :) It doesn't get any more simple than that!!
Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist? - bbtuna response to Riso
Post by: bbtuna on February 06, 2008, 05:56:48 PM
Rios,

sorry I didn't respond sooner, I lost the site and kept waiting for it to come back and I accidentaly got back today and low and behold the site was never down

anyway, i got my panties in a bunch because of the "hack" comment - I missed your smilely wink face and didn't get that as sarcastic humor so my bad, sorry

on Chris Dube, I know him personally and have played him and thought he was a good example (exception for sure but still proof the open hand is alive) and you suggested him not even a semi-pro which curddled my milk a little...no worries though, Chris can defend himself if he wants to, maybe you will get the privelege of playing him some day and you will see the art of the open-handed pullkick

and finally on the Euro Pin...you can not dismiss this by saying the Euro Pin, "is open handed by nature" well the rollover flips over by nature but that doesn't make any less a rollover...I am just trying to be funny...the Euro Pin is one of the great open-handed shots and saying the open-handed part of the shot (which is the entrie shot) is "natural" and so it can't be counted is at the very least faulty logic

the Open-handed shot is 90% of the Euro shots because of the Euro tables which are heavy into control...this makes shooting "inline" set shots (pulls, pushkicks, pullkicks, pushes) so hard the vast majority won't use them and now they have years of culture with the front toe and the best player in the world, possiblly ever, shoots their shot...only countries switching to Tornado (like Britian) are going to develop an American style game

in the US, we are primarily Tornado and it has the least amount of control of all the ITSF tables and doesn't lend itself to the Euro Pin (palm roll) although it can be done as Fred and other Euros have proven

one of the main reasons you don't see more pull/pushkicks is because the front face of the man is curved and it makes hitting accurate consistent angles very very difficult (not because a palm roll doesn't work)...a couple of exceptions but only one or two and all second level right now (Jeep's pushkick was the last at the top and Chris Dubes' pullkick the last of the those [well and Thor I hear is great but he was never at the top])

you are right though, as a general rule on Tornado, there are NO  players in the top 80  (I just looked at the list) who shoot open-handed with their primary shot (exception already noted in Fred)

sorry I think I was having a bad couple of days...you make a good point, not many palm rolls but it isn't because the palm roll isn't any good, it is because the table doesn't lend itself to people shooting it and there are other shots that are easier to do on this table and which have a long varied history of success (on our table)

Title: Re: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?
Post by: Rios on February 06, 2008, 10:56:56 PM
bb-
Not a problem, I just think things were misunderstood or taken the wrong way.

Again, I totally believe you that Chris is a great player and I would love to play him someday, I always love playing good players. Shoot, he has to be good if he is ranked a pro-master!  And like I said he must be an exception to the rule, which apparantly he is. I obviously did not know who he was if I assumed that he was a semi-pro. 

long live the foos!