Topic: Advising new players ... Stickler for official rules .or. Encourage house rules!

[JimWaterman]

When asked about "what the rules are"... how would you answer a question like this...

Name: Jack
City: Dallas
State: TX

Comments:
Hi. We have a table at our house, we play every day, and our roommates have
gotten into quite a squabble. First, can you use two hands on one rod to
shoot a shot? And second, do goalie shots count as two points? I tried
searching but couldn't find anything. Thanks! Happy Foos'ing.

[foozkillah]

When asked about "what the rules are"... how would you answer a question like this...

Name: Jack
City: Dallas
State: TX

Comments:
Hi. We have a table at our house, we play every day, and our roommates have
gotten into quite a squabble. First, can you use two hands on one rod to
shoot a shot? And second, do goalie shots count as two points? I tried
searching but couldn't find anything. Thanks! Happy Foos'ing.

That's actually pretty easy...

Two hands holding the same rod and shooting is completely legal, especially if the player holding the same rod starts with both hands on the handle, ie, both hands are already on the same handle before the ball gets in that particular rod's area, which means no transfer of hands occurred.

If, however, the player transfers a hand from another handle to the rod where the ball is in possession, the player must do the transfer in an unobstrusive manner so as NOT TO CREATE A DISTRACTION, and should wait a full second before firing or passing from that rod with two hands on the handle.  This is actually the most common situation where the player PURPOSELY transfers the hand immediately before shooting IN ORDER TO DISTRACT the defense.  A very cheap and low-brow way to get initiative by distracting the defense, similar to banging the other rod and then immediately shooting the ball from the other rod.  This can be prevented by following the 1-second "one-thousand-and-one.." wait before shooting, after any hands transfer to any rods.  I recommend stabbing the offender in either eye with an icepick or a broomhandle, decapitating that offender and placing his/her head in the microwave oven.

Two points for a goal shot from the goal bar is not legal in field soccer, field hockey, or FOOSBALL.  What's hard about answering that question?  If the home had a house rule awarding 2 points for a shot from the goalrod, then they wouldn't have been having that conversation at his house!  The only argument is because one of the idiots arguing had that house rule at His/Her house, not the current location.  So obviously no current house rule was in vogue.  Why should we or ANYBODY give two craps about specific roulette rules in Monte Carlo or Soho or elsewhere, when playing roulette (OR ANY OTHER HOUSE GAME) in Vegas or Reno?  A heated squabble proves that that individual believes his or her house rule overrules anyone's house rules or lack thereof, exhibiting a complete disregard and disrespect for other peoples homes and hospitality.  The same punishment as shown above should apply.

[bbtuna]

I would say...many people create their own rules not really knowing the "official" rules which has been done in pool, ping pong, darts, and so forth as long as those games have been in people's basements

many of these people don't care about the "real" rules...bars are like this all accross the US...just got into a hugh scabble this last weekend when a bar player got mad that we were inforcing official rules when he thought his bar rules were enough

it is simplier with foosball than many games/sports because right now there is only 1 set of "official" rules and they are the same all over the world...pretty unique really

if you don't want to play by the official rules or tournament rules, there is nothing anyone can say to argue one rule is better than another but the players just need to agree on how they will do it...nothing wrong with this if you are just playing for fun but don't take that made up set of rules to someeone else and try and make them believe they are the "right" rules...the only right rules are the "Official" rules

here is the link if you want to search for a specific rule, print them off, and/or learn them

International Table Soccer Federation (ITSF)
http://www.table-soccer.org/rules/documents/ITSFRulesEnglish.pdf

the specific answers to your questions are below taken directly from the ITSF rules

this is all that is said about two hands
23.4 It is legal to have just one hand on the rods when playing defense (example: right hand on defensive five-man). It is also legal to use two hands to move one rod (example: defensive five-man). Excessive switching of the hand between the handles may be judged a distraction.

here are several other statements about hands on the rods
14.3.1 In any doubles event any player placing their hand on any rod normally designated as one played by their partner while the ball is in play shall be judged as a distraction violations.

20.4 It is considered a distraction, after setting up a shot, to remove a hand from the handle and then immediately shoot the ball. The ball may only be shot after both hands (and/or wrist) have been on both handles for one full second.

20.4.1 In singles, rule 20.4 only applies to a set shot on the three-rod.

and last here is what are the rules on Scoring

12. Point Scored
A ball entering the goal shall count as a point, as long as it was legally scored. A ball which enters the goal but returns to the playing surface and/or leaves the table still counts as a goal.

12.1 If a point is not counted on the scoring markers and both teams agree that it was previously scored and inadvertently not marked up, the point shall count. If both teams do not agree that a point was scored and not marked up that point shall not be counted. Once the next game (or match) has begun no appeal can be made and the point shall not count.

12.2 If there is a controversy over whether or not the ball entered the goal, an official should be called to make a ruling. The official may make a ruling based on information received by the players and/or spectators. If the information gathered is inconclusive the point shall not count.

12.3 Any team intentionally marking up a point not scored shall not get credit for the point illegally marked up and shall be charged with a technical foul. Further violations of this rule will be grounds for forfeiture of game or match (to be determined by the Head Official).

[JimWaterman]

I expected the top players who have so much time/experience invested in the "sport" or elite "game" of foosball to go all "official rules" on folks.    My personal opinion over time has been to encourage folks wanting to play at the entry level to not be such a stickler for the rules!!!  If it means it's NOT fun and you don't temper things with a bit of common sense and end up scaring away potential new players.

A personal pet peeve of mind is the elite player who is upset about "official only calls" like time violations, distractions & resets... but doesn't mind cussing because it's "okay in the bar".    In this sense, i see "house rules" all the time... and YES, but the elite players.

Why not encourage new folks to "READ THE FINE PRINT and BE AWARE of the legalistic rules"... but still encourage them to keep things fun/flexible & inclusive at the local level.

Anyone for 2-ball rollerball with 5-0 skunked players have to take a shot or go streaking around the quad! 

Jim

[foozkillah]

I play nightly at Lost Weekend in South Florida, a very very popular arts retro games bar, where, depending on season, spring break, winter break, whathaveyou, the patrons' skill and familiarity with tournament rules varies quite widely.   The other regulars and I make it a point to explain to players that start arguing about rules that it is an informal venue, with table rules only as the players agree.

Most that are unfamiliar are kind enough to ask, and we have both rulebooks and online rulebooks at the bar if necessary, because we have them for dart, pool, skeeball, air hockey and even Golden Tee events.  If the opponents both agree to whatever they discuss, which is typically spinning or no spinning, and passing only from the 5bar, etc... then we tell them that it holds.  If they wish to use USTSA, USTSF, or even ITSF rules in French or German, we also accomodate them.  We have quite a few Euros and South American tourists or students who love the games.  They invariably ask, discuss and definitely mention our Tornado's 3figure goalies.  If they complain, then we tase them, of course! 

By the way, I and one other are certified to ref and/or arbiter for almost all the games, including USTSA foosball, National Skeeball, Air Hockey, bubble hockey, steeltip darts (no plastic yet) and APA/BCA/Camel9ball/McDermott pool.  Thanks to our distributors and the Miller Lite, El Presidente beer, Grolsch, Red Stripe, etc. organizations that we do tourneys for.

What pisses us off is when someone insists on bringing over his or her "house" rules and cites them very rudely when a call comes up, without prior knowledge given to the opponents.  But we are on the 2nd flloor, immediately above the #1 rock dance club in the world, Dr. Feelgood, and we ARE IN THE STATE OF Cape Kennedy, y'knowww.  We have the same hardcore security bouncers for our entertainment complex, along with Monarchy dance club and Reef Road Rum Bar, all in our building, under the same owners.  So we can easily launch them, with or without staged rocket boosters.  And when the phrase, "do you know who I am?" comes up, then we make use of our 3rd floor, in the rear alleyway so they can have some Rubbermaid can salad on landing.  We've had very few extended arguments of any kind since a couple of months after our places opened, years ago.   

[Old Meister]

I live over an hour away from the "players" in my area. After over a year and a half I found a group of good players that are south of me, not north and play really good. But they didn't serve on the table but rather through the serving hole and didn't observe the nit picking rules of jarring and such like most do. But these guys can play! I talked a couple of them into playing the Oregon State Championships and was pleased that they held their own against some of our top players. The thing I really liked about these guys is how much fun they make the game and that is precious, to have fun,,. So the game can be played without strict adherence to the rules as long as it is not done in a manner to gain advantage by not following the rules that some use about borderline jarring calls and time.

[Tyler Foos]

Although I agree to some degree that "When in Rome, do as the Romans do", it makes more sense to me to learn the game correctly from the start rather than incorrectly. Since the question was asked about 'new' players, I don't see the drawback to teaching and encouraging the way the game should be played, especially since the rules were designed to increase enjoyment of the game. Ignorance may be bliss to some but I think it is very limiting to a player that would ultimately like to play somewhere other than his friends house. Of course, if that group never plans on playing anywhere else it is more like the tree falling in the woods - it's moot anyway!

Tyler

[papafoos]

I discovered a group of guys about 100 miles south of me who were not tournament players.  They're just a bunch of guys that get together almost every Friday night at a guys house.  Most are in their forties and never even knew there were organized tournaments.  A couple of the younger ones seem really interested in learning.

They have a bunch of rules that would really be strange to tournament players.

They play to ten.  Two points for a "clean shot".  A clean shot is one that doesn't touch anything on the way in.  A shot that touches something (i.e. the goalie gets a piece of it but still goes in) only counts one.  A bank shot is one unless you called it.

They also use the earthquake defense.  They use mostly a race defense and jar the hell out of the table.

We explain what the "real" rules but let them decide which ones they want to implement.  We've introduced them to the two man pass and gotten them to jar a little less.  We also got them using the new serve.( I prefer the old way myself.)  I think eventually, we'll convert them to something a little more tournament style.  But for now, we play by their rules.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is, don't force the rules on players who aren't familiar with them.  Let them have their fun and don't make it to complicated.  When they're ready for tournament play, then you can teach them the rules.  Educate them in a way that doesn't make them feel foolish.  Don't force them.

Some of them have gone to tournaments now.  So they have a reason to try to learn the rules.  Two of them showed up at Runaway Bay and a couple of them from Denton have gone to JJ Dakotas in Ft Worth and asked me for locations in the area.  They're not ready to make an impact at the tournaments, but at least they seem interested.

Make them feel welcome, not embarrassed.

[BillV]

When I learned it was with a group that played to 10. I really miss that, even if it has been 20 years, 5 point games are over in the blink of an eye. Before anyone accuses me of being too old school I think the rules are great as they are! Would not change a thing! 

[foozkillah]

The advantage of having played for decades, having pin palm rolls and rollovers, is that playing with jarring, spinning and "earthquake" locals does not in any way prevent the regulars or myself from annihilating them.  A few games of annihilation and several start trying to figure out how to play like we do.  This is something that probably irritates less-experienced rookies and amateurs who try to play within the rules, and foolishly try to shoot a sitting pull or other underrod shots.  Not us.  We know that spinning doesn't really help in ballcontrol, and if they get a lucky shot in or two, we just encourage them.   We play a lot of 52(near) or 54(farwall) brushback spin click wallpasses, which are pretty much unstoppable by spinners, as well as safer against an accidental stuffback.  Even experienced duffers like those described have no zone, never mind a defense against long 2bar pulls past the big dot.  And it's a great time to practice 2bar scorpions or slingshots.

The fact that even with spinning and jarring defenses, any decent wall or brushdown pass is pretty much above the ken of unknowing jarheads, IF YOU ADJUST AND NOT WORRY ABOUT RULES AND SUCH, as well as the fact that they have zero concept of defending any half-decent rollover, makes for a fun evening and these guys are always welcome.  The extra "half-skip" timing of a typical rollover versus the oldschool pin palmrolls that several are familiar with really leaves them defenseless.  And they really look bad in front of their friends that they lord over.

"Earthquake" goal & 2bar shakes are worthless against a decent dink from either outside 3bar.  Knowing and practicing a rolling pull or push also overwhelms even good duffers. The trick is to practice these, which makes us better, rules or no rules, and really develops one's hacking and counter-hacking skills for later use in tournaments, local or bigger.  Perhaps that is one gift from having to have learned a decent rollover/snake.  It annihilates any duffer, loudly, with no ifs ands or buts.