Topic: Practicing shots with your eyes closed

[Old Meister]

Does anyone do this? I got to thinking how a random defense defends by percentages (time/space) rather than visually defending the presented offense. So if someone has really got the defense going then wouldn't a random timing in the offense also have a place and thus the visual would have to be overcome. Just a bit of thought candy for the foos professors to chew on. My thought does have basis though as an important part in mastering my other game, archery, did employ learning form by shooting with eyes closed. It is amazing how much better you get in touch with the feel for a shot by doing this. NBA players practice foul shooting this way also. Just feeling the love,,,

[foozkillah]

I've always used the no look practice mode, which I learned from billiards pro Danny Caggiani and 3time 9ball world champion Jimmy Reid, decades ago.  It's basic training for the mind's eye-to-hand coordination and the only true to way to speed up loading up your body memory, and correctly.  That's how they checked, and rather easily, to see if one had a true deadstroke in pool.  Of course, certain Shao-Lin monks knew this over 2000 years ago... duh.....

For ex.  any self-respecting rollover shooter should be able to repeatedly hit either post if they wish to realize an above-rookie snake.  So should any self respecting pull, push, or kick shooter be able to hit at least that post (the 3/4) without looking at it.

Same thing with any real square click wallpass, bounce up, or brush.  That's how I normally rate any newcomer who comes to play and asks to learn: do this shot and these passes while looking backwards at your OWN goal....  Easy to rate....  What's their average for 10 shots and 10 passes?

You ask them what their main pass series is, if any, and what killshot they use...

0-2 is a scrub (beginner to rook, depending on the time of day & the temperature and humidity - certain atmospheric conditions make scrubs have their brain fall out when they lean over too far)

3-5 is usually talent developed enough to be a decent amateur

6-8 is typically at the semipro or an expert level talent ..

8-10 or even better if they also look you in the eye ... the start of "Trooo Evil."

What was really almost shocking when I first used this to rate newcomers the Thursday before a Friday DYP, was how accurate this rating system is (not for anti-sandbagging for unknowns in a tournament, of course) when used during pickups, even if the player hasn't really tried no-look shots or passes before... And getting through a second set of 10 passes or shots usually gets to their real level quite precisely....

[alaskan thunder]

I just like to use that talent in order to stare at the other teams forward while I score on his goalie. Makes for some priceless pickup game *** talking.

[gitablok]

Not a big fan of it.

You will be able to do this anyway because of repetition of practice. It is a byproduct of repetition.

I am currently an A level pool player and yes it commonplace to demonstrate you can make shots with out looking and as with free throw shots can be practiced to make you better because of repetition of stroke.

The reason it is pointless to practice your shot in foos this way is because the defense is constantly changing. In pool and in shooting free throws, the table and balls do not move nor does the basketball goal, so it makes no difference. Now if a shot could be made when a player closed his eyes and I moved the eight ball to the right about an inch, that would impress me. Or if a basketball player could make a freethrow with his eyes closed after I have move the goal up about three inches, that would also impres me.

The point being that you need to practice with your eyes open because you need to be able to process the information in front of you ( the defense )  in order to produce a good result. Practice with you eyes closed and then you open them you won't know what to do. So what, you can hit deadmans with your eyes closed, but in a match, if the goalie has a man sitting there, what good is it?

If this type of practice was good, then teams would just run plays in practice without a defense on the other side, ever. In the pro ranks, that's why the practice squad is the practice squad. They provide visual information for you to see so you can process that info when you reach the game you have an idea of what to do.

You need to practice with your eyes open processing the defense at all times. The "byproduct" of hours of this type of practice is the ability to make shots with your eyes closed.

When I practice, I am constantly moving the men around in several positions. That way when I see it in a game situation, I have an idea of what to do. If I practice with my eyes closed, I would not.

Get it?

[Old Meister]

I hear you Ice. It's kind of a relief as I've gone on to bigger and badder things in my practice. The reason I went there is in archery it was great for establishing form thus getting a positive reinforcement. I think it still has merit for that but a guy has to be honest about what he needs practice on and right now I'm on a groove that I really like.

[foozkillah]

I'm talking lookaway shots by oneself, practicing execution on any set point, like a 3/4 or or a long or a split.  During shot practice by oneself, where no amount of looking at the defensive figures will make them move or train your eyes to search out the D.  I believe one has to be able to hit certain points repeatedly and with confidence, first and foremost, and I see so many aspiring foosers work on their superdeadbar or extreme shots all year, even razor cutbacks on purpose, but don't bother to practice the basic open 3/4's and splits.  In fact, no matter how brilliant one's analysis is of the D to find out where the weakness and the holes are, it's pretty much totally and UTTERLY WORTHLESS IF ONE CAN'T CONSISTENTLY HIT THAT HOLE.  Where you want it, when you want it.  At meatball, one out of the money, you beergoggles are getting heavy, with your goaltender scoring own-goals faster than you can pass, especially against opponents who've consistently bricked you, and when only body memory can help you hit the hole.

In the context of training your memory to shoot without looking at the D, especially any D which is confusing one's view of the open hole, I believe the lookaway is one of the best valid ways to really train, AND check, if you can hit a certain hole, despite game or equipment conditions, no matter how late it is or how tired one is.  No matter what one concludes where the hole/s are in a good D, one still has to execute it, right?

Of course if one's playing pickups, it behooves one to practice, perhaps even memorize certain D's, Random et al, as much as one can.  It definitely is a big big plus if one can limn out a pattern or timing that a Random-looking D has.  It's just that I keep hearing, time and time again, how players figured out where the hole was, but just couldn't execute it right, at the right time.  Which is why I try to convey the importance of making shot placement and timing as automatic as possible.  AND you can still practice hitting that hole with a lookaway, during the pickup games after you've determined (or decided) where the hole really is.  AND, if you can't figure out a really good defender's hole, you have to pick a spot and shoot within you possession time limit, anyway.

But that's just my opinion and observation, which I've tried and tested with so many scrubs and beginners over the decades.  There could be some other magic way to discipline one's shot to hit a certain hole on-call, in a certain way, in an accelerated manner, but I don't know those methods.

[kayko2000]

What's the tip on practicing splits?  To me, it seems more of a timing thing than anything else... no?
If you can pull deadman and hit the straight shot, aren't splits just a variation of the range in between?

[foozkillah]

This is in terms of a backpin, a pull, or a push shot, where the ball is released from behind the 3bar or from directly under the rod... NOT in terms of any frontpin shot, including rollovers.

I encourage newer players down here to learn to aim using the dots...  This is because in the mind's eye, the accompanying optical and timing illusion often prevents reliable feedback for eye-hand coordination to remember when to start the forward release motion and where the foot of the shooting figure should end up.  And even more so, when shooting in an actual game with moving defenders, where the defender is doing their best to present no clean or clear hole or release line into the goal.

Especially with much lower feet to the playing surface and longer playing figures as on the Tornado, the length and angle from where the ball is behind the rod at the beginning of the forward stroke, all the way forward to the last point of contact on the ball during the shot, is considerable.

This characteristic also explains that illusion where you're sure you shot the ball right at or even inside a 2bar figure, but the ball seemed to have curved right around the 2bar or goalrod figure.  This is actually because your mind's eye sees and feels the ball in front of your shooting figure (your middle 3bar figure, most often, in a pull or push shot) while its still in front, or even inside, the defending 2bar figure.  You think you HAD TO HAVE fired your stroke right at, or even behind, the defending 2bar, but you're not realizing that even though you might have STARTED the stroke that way, and felt the ball go forward in a relatively straight line (looking from the viewpoint of your middle 3bar figure), it actually didn't release there.  If you were looking from the viewpoint of the surface, you began the shot where you were in front of the 2bar (or goal figure, even), but by the time you released it,  the ball was already past and clear of the defender.

I've had arguments with guys who've shot this way naturally and successfully FOR YEARS and thought the ball was spraying at the release in front of the defender (which was prolly true) but they also thought that their recoil was making the ball spray and then curve back inwards after veering past the defending 2bar figure.  Like a bowling ball hook or curve ball!!! HEHEHEHE ... NHOTT!  I showed them the principle of the optical illusion, simply by putting some stopper on their 3bar, preventing the middle 3bar figure from going more than half a player foot past the defending 2bar.  They quickly realized (duhhhh...) that they couldn't humanly put enough curve in any manner whatsoever on the 3bar shot in a quick (non-stubbed) pull, push, or backpin, that could make that ball curve in or even just straighten out. 

What was happening was the ball was being released PAST the 2bar defender at the end of the shot.  This illusion never bothers Euro frontpin shooters or rollovers, because they hardly bring the ball back and know pretty much where the ball was truly released, pretty much all the time.  So what does this have to do with hitting splits?

Use the dots to train yourself to watch where you release the ball at the last moment of contact AT THE END OF THE SHOT.  Remember at which dot position your middle 3bar was when you first had the ball in front of it (beginning position) but most importantly, remember the position where you had last contact with the ball.  Have a camera from the goalmouth, or even just shoot it several times with a friend observing  from behind the goal.  You should find your most natural distance laterally between where you begin to fire, and where you release it.  If you can keep or practice enough to keep this distance to about one dot, which is pretty advanced, then your firing velocity should be better and allow for tighter splits.  I've seen guys with monster wrists who can cut this down to half a dot or less, approaching the firing velocity of a palmrolled power shot, but about a dot is good enough so you can STILL give the illusion of firing right at the defending 2bar or goal figure, but still come out sideways enough to clear it.  Whatever other recoil or return motion after you've released the ball also helps hide the shot.  But you have to first realize when you practice the split is to know EXACTLY WHERE, DOT POSITION-WISE, you've let the ball go.  You can happily then go and practice, adjust, and master your timing and takeoff accordingly to hit a split THAT RELEASES just before the center or bigdot, right at the bigdot, or just past the bigdot but short of a 3quarter.  Isn't it just wonderful how technology, specifically video, can illuminate what's really happening on a shot?

Now the split with a rollover or frontpin is more like hitting the 3quarter on either side of the middle defender.  The absolute center split is basically a straight in a rollover or frontpin, of course.. That's a whole other discussion...  And yes, you can shoot a fast, no-stub pull or push shot that actually hooks or curves, but that's only from the goal area, not the 3bar.

[sirflair]

There is a book published back in the mid 70's called 'the inner game of tennis'. It was considered by many including myself as the bible of foosball back in the late 70's. One of the points it makes is that after you learn how to execute a certain shot your body now knows how to do it and your brain will just get in the way. It is fact! What I will frequentlly do in a tourny when a goaly is all over me and I am mis executeing,( which happens frequently these days) I will close my eyes and shoot a long pull. Try it, even in practice you will be suprised.

I highly reccomend the book for everyone!

[Eric Dunn]

If you happen to have the luxury of having bad eyesight and need to wear glasses, then you can also try shots and passes with your glasses off - once you get used to it, and you stop trying to see the ball - ie don't squint, you'll be amazed at what you can still do and how it feels to play 'by feel'.   and if you can learn to bring yourself to the ability of playing by feel - without thought or hesitation, then you're closer to being 'in the zone'.

never tried it myself, but possibly you could also try it with someone else's glasses if you're eye sight is fine.

[Old Meister]

Wow Eric, I never thought about that. That is a great idea! I certainly fall into that segment who could try it.

[gitablok]

I'm talking lookaway shots by oneself, practicing execution on any set point, like a 3/4 or or a long or a split.  During shot practice by oneself, where no amount of looking at the defensive figures will make them move or train your eyes to search out the D.  I believe one has to be able to hit certain points repeatedly and with confidence, first and foremost, and I see so many aspiring foosers work on their superdeadbar or extreme shots all year, even razor cutbacks on purpose, but don't bother to practice the basic open 3/4's and splits.  In fact, no matter how brilliant one's analysis is of the D to find out where the weakness and the holes are, it's pretty much totally and UTTERLY WORTHLESS IF ONE CAN'T CONSISTENTLY HIT THAT HOLE.  Where you want it, when you want it.  At meatball, one out of the money, you beergoggles are getting heavy, with your goaltender scoring own-goals faster than you can pass, especially against opponents who've consistently bricked you, and when only body memory can help you hit the hole.

In the context of training your memory to shoot without looking at the D, especially any D which is confusing one's view of the open hole, I believe the lookaway is one of the best valid ways to really train, AND check, if you can hit a certain hole, despite game or equipment conditions, no matter how late it is or how tired one is.  No matter what one concludes where the hole/s are in a good D, one still has to execute it, right?

Of course if one's playing pickups, it behooves one to practice, perhaps even memorize certain D's, Random et al, as much as one can.  It definitely is a big big plus if one can limn out a pattern or timing that a Random-looking D has.  It's just that I keep hearing, time and time again, how players figured out where the hole was, but just couldn't execute it right, at the right time.  Which is why I try to convey the importance of making shot placement and timing as automatic as possible.  AND you can still practice hitting that hole with a lookaway, during the pickup games after you've determined (or decided) where the hole really is.  AND, if you can't figure out a really good defender's hole, you have to pick a spot and shoot within you possession time limit, anyway.

But that's just my opinion and observation, which I've tried and tested with so many scrubs and beginners over the decades.  There could be some other magic way to discipline one's shot to hit a certain hole on-call, in a certain way, in an accelerated manner, but I don't know those methods.

Sorry for the late reply, but I am going to respectfully disagree with you Killa.

You may have tried and tested your stuff on scrubs over the years, sorry to say I don't have that luxury.

When I try out my methods, it's against Warren Vanlandingham, Brandon Moreland, Mike Archer, Steve Murray, Gena Murray, Rick Macias, David Radack, Denis Ory, Frank Espinosa, Harley Parks, Skip Clark, Tommy Adkinnson, Ahmed Geyeth, Charles Britt, just to name a few.

Why would I try methods on a scrub. Everything works on a scrub. Come up with something that works on one of these guys that works on a regular basis, now you have something.

Recognition of holes in a defense is key in reading a defense, and practicing in the manner of your eyes closed will only serve to loosen up your muscles. Trust me, being able to hit shots blindly does NOT come from practicing in this manner.
 
IT COMES FROM THOUSANDS OF REPETITIONS.

Housein Kiani, one of the great pull shooters to play the game, shot almost 1500 pull shots a day when he was on top of his game.

Even in the example of basketball players and pool shooters, they don't practice in this manner. It is a BYPRODUCT of thousands of repetitions. When you see them doing this it is a check or test of those thousands of repetitions to see if they are doing things correctly.

You can shadow box, run ghost patterns on the football field, and run plays against no one on the basketball court all you want. You don't have quality practice until you put something on the other side, so practicing with your eyes closed is pointless.

Being able to hit shots blindly....

 IS A BYPRODUCT OF "TIME" ON THE TABLE.

[foozkillah]

Quote from: foozkillah on August 02, 2009, 01:04:57 AM
I'm talking lookaway shots by oneself, practicing execution on any set point, like a 3/4 or or a long or a split.  During shot practice by oneself, where no amount of looking at the defensive figures will make them move or train your eyes to search out the D.  I believe one has to be able to hit certain points repeatedly and with confidence, first and foremost, and I see so many aspiring foosers work on their superdeadbar or extreme shots all year, even razor cutbacks on purpose, but don't bother to practice the basic open 3/4's and splits.  In fact, no matter how brilliant one's analysis is of the D to find out where the weakness and the holes are, it's pretty much totally and UTTERLY WORTHLESS IF ONE CAN'T CONSISTENTLY HIT THAT HOLE.  Where you want it, when you want it.  At meatball, one out of the money, you beergoggles are getting heavy, with your goaltender scoring own-goals faster than you can pass, especially against opponents who've consistently bricked you, and when only body memory can help you hit the hole.

In the context of training your memory to shoot without looking at the D, especially any D which is confusing one's view of the open hole, I believe the lookaway is one of the best valid ways to really train, AND check, if you can hit a certain hole, despite game or equipment conditions, no matter how late it is or how tired one is.  No matter what one concludes where the hole/s are in a good D, one still has to execute it, right?

Of course if one's playing pickups, it behooves one to practice, perhaps even memorize certain D's, Random et al, as much as one can.  It definitely is a big big plus if one can limn out a pattern or timing that a Random-looking D has.  It's just that I keep hearing, time and time again, how players figured out where the hole was, but just couldn't execute it right, at the right time.  Which is why I try to convey the importance of making shot placement and timing as automatic as possible.  AND you can still practice hitting that hole with a lookaway, during the pickup games after you've determined (or decided) where the hole really is.  AND, if you can't figure out a really good defender's hole, you have to pick a spot and shoot within you possession time limit, anyway.

But that's just my opinion and observation, which I've tried and tested with so many scrubs and beginners over the decades.  There could be some other magic way to discipline one's shot to hit a certain hole on-call, in a certain way, in an accelerated manner, but I don't know those methods.

Sorry for the late reply, but I am going to respectfully disagree with you Killa.

You may have tried and tested your stuff on scrubs over the years, sorry to say I don't have that luxury.

When I try out my methods, it's against Warren Vanlandingham, Brandon Moreland, Mike Archer, Steve Murray, Gena Murray, Rick Macias, David Radack, Denis Ory, Frank Espinosa, Harley Parks, Skip Clark, Tommy Adkinnson, Ahmed Geyeth, Charles Britt, just to name a few.

Why would I try methods on a scrub. Everything works on a scrub. Come up with something that works on one of these guys that works on a regular basis, now you have something.

Recognition of holes in a defense is key in reading a defense, and practicing in the manner of your eyes closed will only serve to loosen up your muscles. Trust me, being able to hit shots blindly does NOT come from practicing in this manner.
 
IT COMES FROM THOUSANDS OF REPETITIONS.

Housein Kiani, one of the great pull shooters to play the game, shot almost 1500 pull shots a day when he was on top of his game.

Even in the example of basketball players and pool shooters, they don't practice in this manner. It is a BYPRODUCT of thousands of repetitions. When you see them doing this it is a check or test of those thousands of repetitions to see if they are doing things correctly.

You can shadow box, run ghost patterns on the football field, and run plays against no one on the basketball court all you want. You don't have quality practice until you put something on the other side, so practicing with your eyes closed is pointless.

Being able to hit shots blindly....

 IS A BYPRODUCT OF "TIME" ON THE TABLE.

So Ice,

You seem to be saying that if you find a straight, middle, 3/quarter or long hole, you should only practice those when someone like your lengthy list of Dallas pros et al, is blocking.

In other words, you want us to tell a rookie or scrub beginner to forget trying to train his or her eye-hand-and body to master hitting a shot only through doing hundreds of thousands of repetitions against those people you play at your locals and such.  Not necessary to train yourself how to hit a split at the big dot, or a moving 3quarter or a straight inside the first dot, no matter if you're playing by yourself, pickups, a local or on tour.   ONLY figuring out how to hit the shots via pickups or direct play with a Pro or ProMaster will get ya better, just like you've obviously had to "suffer" over the years.  You can't really mean that?

Nothing you can do to make your shots more consistent by yourself, and there's absolutely nothing going for body memory.  So if you don't get a chance to just play thousands and thousands of times against... Warren Vanlandingham (Jr and Sr?), Brandon Moreland, Mike Archer, Steve Murray, Gena Murray, Rick Macias, David Radack, Denis Ory, Frank Espinosa, Harley Parks, Skip Clark, Tommy Adkinnson, Ahmed Geyeth, Charles Britt, just to name a few.... basically you're SOL.  Just forget foosball if you're a beginner or rookie trying to learn eh?

Are you reading what you're saying?  I'm assuming I should be confused, but SirFlair and Eric Dunn and several other players on this thread, whom I respect, don't seem to have gotten confused with my advice for those practicing and trying to make their shots more consistent.  Did you forget the original opening post of this thread?  Basically someone asking for help on shooting shots against a defender that hides the holes very well, baits wonderfully, etc..?  Someone hard to read?

So if a scrub or rookie or even semipro, like the original creator of this thread, can't get Warren, or Ory or Ahmed to come over when practicing, FUGGETTABOUTIT?  Don't even continue foosball, take up poker or something?  Practicing, not necessarily with eyes closed, but just practicing so your arm and wrist are as consistent as possible, IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE and won't help at all unless you're shooting against your Arlington-Irving-DFW clique?

Either you, or perhaps ALL the rest of us have gotten sidetracked on this... I REMEMBER RECOMMENDING PRACTICING WITH NO-LOOK, not with EYES CLOSED.  Your reply as if I'd recommended "eyes-closed" is completely wrong or misquoted, ESPECIALLY IF YOU READ THE FIRST SENTENCE OF WHAT YOU JUST QUOTED BACK TO ME!  And all I can see in the quote is where I recommend mastering basic shots to hit basic holes first, with as much repetition as possible.

Lookaway shooting prevents a forward from developing a bad habit of favorite defenses to shoot certain shots at, instead of just learning to hit a certain hole, no matter the D motion or configuration.  Which philosophy are you arguing against?  Taking this really confusing logic, and suppose a scrub or rookie aspiring to learn has the opportunity you had and DOES master scoring on those people you mentioned, DOES THAT MEAN THOSE ARE THE ONLY ONES THEY CAN SCORE ON THEN?  Or do those people represent every D and every defensive philosophy you'll find out there in the world?

I don't particularly recommend eyes-closed shooting, but neither do I disagree with it either.  And going back to the very first opening post and the crux of this thread, if you can't make hide nor tails of the defense you're looking to shoot at, then just closing your eyes and just executing a correct ongoal shot CAN BE A GOOD shot selection, among others.

[ComebackKid]

 

And going back to the very first opening post and the crux of this thread, if you can't make hide nor tails of the defense you're looking to shoot at, then just closing your eyes and just executing a correct ongoal shot CAN BE A GOOD shot selection, among others.

I would suggest deciding what shot to shoot, straight, split, or long. Then decide what count to shoot on, and focus on exicution.

[splattman]

When I practice my shots I tend to do exactly the oppistie of closing my eyes.  I try to concentrate on looking at the goal and focus on the hole I am trying to hit.  I shoot a snake shot and often times I get in the habbit of looking at the ball and reading the defense with my perifferal vision.  I'm pretty good at it but during practice I like to spend some time trying to see the entire goal and not so much look at the ball. 

So to make a long story short I agree with Ice and would recomend practicing looking at the hole and the ability to hit the hole without looking will come as a by product.