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New balls

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Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2008, 12:07:32 PM »
The ITSF may be a pain in the ass sometimes, but it's the only international foosball organisation we have. Given that the common goal is to get foosball recognized as a sport, constantly proclaiming national interests can only be detrimental to this common cause.
Don't ask what the ITSF can do for your country, ask yourself what your country can do for the ITSF!

Any country or region proclaiming, protecting and maintaining its national interests in a sport or game have never EVER been detrimental to the common cause of that sport! That is the ludicrousness of believing that Farid Lounas knows what is best for any of the ITSF members!

Case in point: the French and Italians have great cause to be proud of their "red clay" tennis tour, which is a major part of the annual tour, including the ATP.   There are no idiotic or moronic requests or plans from the local French & Italian federations or IOC to change over to any standardized surface to match an Olympic standard!  Nor do they care what other federations or the Olympics use for rules, especially in deciding tied or even sets!  The All-England club has their own rules for tiebreakers, as well!  And so does the American tour.

There is no connection and no conflict!  Each international player from any country has to adjust and adapt to whatever the rules & conditions are at each international event.  AND THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT!  Which is part of the challenge and the greatness of the game.  The same goes for any Olympic sport!  And all the players happily go home to their own national or regional tours without blinking an eye.

So do not use Olympic or international standardization as any justification.  The ITSF wants its own game, for its own purposes.  And those purposes are intimately connected to the major agendas of the manufacturers it certifies and approves for ITSF play.  They want a standard table, with which they would try to dominate the world with and make a crapload of money.  Nothing to do with anyone's aspirations to push or advance foosball.  This is no different than Lehmacher or Garlando creating a world tour and working for dominant marketshare, trying to put THEIR table into the whole world.  There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed.  Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others.

Don't ask what the ITSF can do for foosball, ask how much money you can make for the ITSF!

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2008, 01:14:09 PM »
They aren't out trying to make money, think about this. If your goal was to make a lot of money, would you try to do that through foosball? There are many ways to make a lot of money, but this isn't the goal of either Farid or the ITSF. They care about promoting and growing the game. It is VERY different from a table manufacturer starting a tour to take over the world. If it was like that then they would own a table. Farid has no vested interest in promoting one table over another. I know they make bad decisions, as proven by the current tornado changes. I don't belive that this is a direct attack on the US, I also don't belive they are trying to ruin the heritage, or identity of US foosball. Also I believe(as you also do I think) that both the ITSF and the identity of US foosball can coexist. Just not at the same tournament.

Any country or region proclaiming, protecting and maintaining its national interests in a sport or game have never EVER been detrimental to the common cause of that sport!

This is partially true, but if it is done in the wrong way it is detrimental.

There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed.  Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others

No offense, but this must be the most misjudged and deceptive statement I have ever read on this forum.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 01:24:22 PM by Will17 »

Offline bbtuna

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  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: New balls
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2008, 01:32:25 PM »
Friad gets money to advance his agenda from these manufactures...he is already a successful business so this is a passion not an investment (supposedly)...this is a Non-profit org so Fri shouldn't be making money but

a part from that, Fri has an agenda...if it wasn't clear before, it has to be clear now...Fri has a vision for the way he thinks foosball ought to look, this call by him and him alone to change the Tor to 1 man goalie 2 weeks before the World Championship should clear that up in case anyone was on the fence

said with sarcastic tone which gets thicker and heavier with sarcasm with each word …
Oh, and since Fri is in control, Fri has the vision, and Fri has the support, then of course Fri has the perfect plan AND Fri has the right to unilaterally execute that plan
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 01:34:47 PM by bbtuna »

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2008, 03:16:14 PM »
As an addition to my last post, I would also be more than happy to support any other organization that's goals are to help foosball grow and prosper, if anyone started a corporation(which the itsf is not by the way) that ran a world cup, collected results from tournaments in every country, had a ranking system, etc then I would probably prefer that to the ITSF because I do not have any attachement to the itsf, i don't even really like the itsf, it is however better than any other alternative, so until I have something else to support, i will support the itsf.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2008, 05:55:03 PM »
Will17,

What do you mean not make money with foosball?  We mean make money with foosball tables!  The founder of the Dynamo tables, Tournament Soccer, Bonzini, Lehmacher, and Leonhard ALL became solid viable corporations, and their founding members made tons and tons of money!  The continuing changes to ALL tables shows how this warped and unneeded vision for international foosball is part of the agenda to go to one world table!  The attraction, esteem, competitiveness, and even grandeur of the ALL the other world tours in tennis, golf, bowling, etc. ILLUSTRATE the need for DIVERSITY.  This movement is corrupt and can only be profitable to the ITSF and its 5 selected manufacturing partners.  Because they control the certifications and what events are sanctionable, they can one day own the whole market!  Are you missing this?  This is EVIL.  ALL the chosen manufacturers know that they will be the only game in all towns if this happens!  Sorry for all the other manufacturers that didn't wish to join this gang of organized monopolistic criminals!  Nothing to do with advancing foosball at all!

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2008, 06:08:20 PM »
Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life?  Want to select one golf course or tennis court & make that the absolute standard globally?  That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world?  Nothing is worth getting there.  No global aspiration is worth that!  This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?


Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2008, 06:08:44 PM »
The ITSF needs to be disbanded & each country/region's player's orgs should create a new one to reflect the needs of all world players, WITHOUT ANY MANUFACTURER influence!  Otherwise, all previous histories & traditions of all foosball countries will be melted down into a tasteless standard!  The org needs open-minded wide parameters for certification like: minimum number of players on this table with these rules?  Yes? OK.  There should be many certs, just like Olympic certs for approved equipment from many mfrs are replete.  It should not be an elitist members-only club, but an open organization for all to benefit from!

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2008, 06:15:59 PM »
In reference to :There is no altruistic or noble purpose in the ITSF, it's all money and greed.  Just another corporation trying to outgrow and outmarket the others
and
What do you mean not make money with foosball?  We mean make money with foosball tables!

I was saying that the ITSF is not out to make money, the table manufacturers certainly are, and that is a good thing. However I do understand that it is monopolistic to not allow other manufacturers to make the same thing. It would maybe be ideal if they had a set of rules/guidelines that define what a foosball table is, and any tournament run on any of those tables could be officially recognized. It would then create other problems though, such as a country designing there own table to benefit themselves and not make the table accessible to other countries. I think the way it is being done is best, as long as there is room for change. If all the Federations representing countries that are using tornado currently decided that warrior (or anyone else) was making a better table at some point down the road the ITSF would have to change that table. I would be willing to bet that the ITSF would change from tornado to warrior if that was requested in that manor, however if the ITSF would not accept that change, I would at that point completely take your side. I think as long as the freedom for the 5 official tables to change is kept, I will be happy with that aspect of the ITSF.

By the way I also support the need for diversity in the tables, but I think that it has to be limited. If I made a Foosball table that was 6 feet tall it would be a very diverse table.. you can see where i'm going with that. Diversity is good, but it has to be controlled by someone... as I said before, if someone else will control that, and run tournaments, even in direct opposition to the ITSF, I would support that organization also.

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 06:24:56 PM »
The ITSF doesn’t need to be dispanded.
Each country or region does need its own organization, as is accepted and recommended by the ITSF.  There could also be a players association, as in many other sports. Manufacturers are being influence by the ITSF, not the other way around. None of the 5 official tables are telling the ITSF what to do, obviously.

I believe the best step for foosball would be for the ITSF to be made more diplomatic and open. If there was accurate representation of player bases (for every 100 players registered in a countries association that association gets 1 vote, or something along those lines) that decided on things like the changing of tornado to 1 man goalie it would leave us feeling at least informed. The ITSF couldn’t ignore the fact that everyone playing on tornado would not have voted on this change at this time, maybe the 1 man goalie would be preferred in the long run, but it would not have happened 2 weeks before what should be the biggest tournament of the year.

I understand there are problems with the ITSF. There is no better alternative. There isn’t even any alternative. How can we complain that someone is doing something wrong when they are the only one doing anything?

Offline Will17

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Re: New balls
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2008, 06:34:29 PM »
Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life?

No, and also I own 3 types of foosball tables, only 1 of which is ITSF certified.

That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world?  Nothing is worth getting there.  No global aspiration is worth that!  This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?

I don’t really see where you are going with this. but no I don’t support Hitler. Now that we got that out of the way…

Hitler did accomplish a lot, and Farid will too, and has already. As cetainly as hitlers goals were wrong, Farid is working towards positive goals, if he ever tries to make tornado become bonzini or the other way around then I would not support that. However, I do support the change of tornado to a 1 man goalie. The timing was bad, but the change is being made with the best interests in mind. He is trying to grow table soccer. It is hard to convince about 75% of the people in the world to play on tornado because of the extra men, alienating that many people is not good for foosball. however making those people not feel alienated is good for foosball. I actually like 3 men better. I think it puts more emphasis on the 5 bar and as billy said on the other board it makes it harder to put you 2 bar clearances off the back wall to your 3. Either way, I’m willing to accept change if it is done for the greater good.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 06:37:31 PM »
It would then create other problems though, such as a country designing there own table to benefit themselves and not make the table accessible to other countries.

How can that not be a fallacy?  Look at the French and Italian Opens, then Wimbledon, then the US Open!!!   You see the surface advantages for the regional players, which is a major major part of their mystique and challenge, but you have no problem recognizing them as valid ATP or international accredited tournaments!!  Ok so for example, your players have the advantage for the Whatever Open, but our players will have the advantage too, in OUR Open!   True world class players like Nadal and Federer, Tiger and the Kid, as well as foosball's own Rico put the lie to your perceived problem.

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 06:44:03 PM »
How can that not be a fallacy?  Look at the French and Italian Opens, then Wimbledon, then the US Open!!!   You see the surface advantages for the regional players, which is a major major part of their mystique and challenge, but you have no problem recognizing them as valid ATP or international accredited tournaments!!  Ok so for example, your players have the advantage for the Whatever Open, but our players will have the advantage too, in OUR Open!   True world class players like Nadal and Federer, Tiger and the Kid, as well as foosball's own Rico put the lie to your perceived problem.

This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 06:45:55 PM »
Will17, You wish to only buy one type of car for life?

No, and also I own 3 types of foosball tables, only 1 of which is ITSF certified.

That is what I'm saying Farid, his cronies at the ITSF, and of course the 5 approved manufacturers would like!

That all hotels, casinos & tourist spots you visit look exactly the same, ie, live in Adolf Hitler or George Orwell's world?  Nothing is worth getting there.  No global aspiration is worth that!  This guy Farid is an egotistical purist. Do you wish to join the millions that made the mistake & supported those like him?

I don’t really see where you are going with this. but no I don’t support Hitler. Now that we got that out of the way…

Hitler did accomplish a lot, and Farid will too, and has already. As cetainly as hitlers goals were wrong, Farid is working towards positive goals, if he ever tries to make tornado become bonzini or the other way around then I would not support that. However, I do support the change of tornado to a 1 man goalie. The timing was bad, but the change is being made with the best interests in mind. He is trying to grow table soccer. It is hard to convince about 75% of the people in the world to play on tornado because of the extra men, alienating that many people is not good for foosball. however making those people not feel alienated is good for foosball. I actually like 3 men better. I think it puts more emphasis on the 5 bar and as billy said on the other board it makes it harder to put you 2 bar clearances off the back wall to your 3. Either way, I’m willing to accept change if it is done for the greater good. 

The point was, most egotistical megalomaniacs with a God-complex or delusions of grandeur, who insist that they know what is supposed to be, who ignore those who question, have a friggin' BAD idea of what everyone needs!  Perhaps if he had lived and played in all 5 (formerly 13) regions of tables, but NO WAY.  And why were there no screams and hollers for the previous two World Cups or championships that included the Tornado.  This suddenly came up?  Come on...  A jackass is a Jackass ... is a JACKASS !!

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2008, 06:54:00 PM »
5 tables is enough diversity for me, and i'm sure most people. Its all fine and good if there are other tables - P4P adn warrior most notably - with there own tours, but at an international competition there must be limits.

how do you know he ignores those who question... in fact, I can only think of 1 person that actually contacted the ITSF in all of this.

Also, the only time I emailed the ITSF with a question(a year or so ago) they responded in a timely manor and answered my questions with the answers I was hoping to hear but was worried that they were headed in a different direction.

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2008, 06:55:23 PM »
And why were there no screams and hollers for the previous two World Cups or championships that included the Tornado.  This suddenly came up?

I will be willing to guarantee there were screams and hollers. Half the time when I play against someone in a bar on tornado the other person says they dont want to play because of the 3 man goalie.