Topic: New balls

[foozkillah]

This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.

There's the fallacy again!  If you made a 6 ft tall foosball table, and you also had thousands of players across one or more countries that used and played it, then that group deserves representation in international play!  They would not be inconsequential because some know-it-all group led by F Lounatic just said it was!

And believe me, despite the silly examples, of course, if the ATP sanctioned events on a broken glass court, and enough players toured on it, Nadal and Federer would be there too!  And Rico may need stilts, but he would certainly try to prove he can foos with anyone and anybody around the world, even on stilts on a 6ft tall foosball table!  Any enlightened international organization would recognize which countries and regions had their own variety and would respect that!

[Will17]

its not a fallacy at all, you somehow cant comprehend that there needs to be a limit to what is foosball and what isn't foosball. If a 6 foot tall table can still be called foosball then what is not foosball, where is your line and who will draw it? I believe if a country brought a 6 foot tall table to the world cup that most foosball players would be pretty disapointed that they have to play on it under your system.

Despite the silly examples, there certainly needs to be standards. Those standards need to be enforced. Right now the ITSF is both of those things.

[foozkillah]

This is all exactly the same as it is right now. You compare it to tennis, which is good, but the ITSF is just like whichever tour it is that governs tennis. If I made a tennis court out of sharp broken glass (the same as my 6 foot tall foosball table idea) there needs to be someone to govern that. You wouldn't find nadal or federer on the broken glass court, and you woulnd't find rico or spree on the 6 foot high foosball table. Both tennis and foosball have a governing body that are looking out for the players to make sure tables and courts are standardized.

No, it is not exactly the same.  Even if the ITSF is the only organization, SO FAR...  If the ATP leadership were ever to insanely mandate changing the tennis surfaces to one format, the leadership would get booted out the windows.  And this is what should happen to the ITSF leadership.  If the International Golf Assoc were to mandate that British and Scottish golfcourses had to switch over to the lush, huge expanses of American PGA style courses or even the Euro style metrics, those idiots would get thrown in the channel!

So if you had only one international body and their members were a f*ck-up, you recommend just smiling and taking it?  Live with it?  How stupid is that? No! You criticize them, and if they do not justify themselves, you pull the plug and stop supporting them!  Other morons can come in and definitely do as bad and as half-*ssed a job as they did!

[foozkillah]

its not a fallacy at all, you somehow cant comprehend that there needs to be a limit to what is foosball and what isn't foosball. If a 6 foot tall table can still be called foosball then what is not foosball, where is your line and who will draw it? I believe if a country brought a 6 foot tall table to the world cup that most foosball players would be pretty disapointed that they have to play on it under your system.
Despite the silly examples, there certainly needs to be standards. Those standards need to be enforced. Right now the ITSF is both of those things. 

Of course it's a fallacy, Will. If thousands of people around the world happen to be playing on 6ft tall foos tables, and get shut out of the "supposed" Worlds, then that really wouldn't be a representative World Championships would it?  It would only be a world BonziniTornadoGarlandoRobertoTecball championships, but nowhere near the Olympic ideal.

And like ALL good, tough, cooperative world sports or game organizations, the ITSF has to be able to take criticism, be able to act on it, and not make decisions on the fly behind closed doors while dealing with manufacturers.  If not then they can go hang!  The ITSF merits more blind acceptance than the International Cycling Fed that was torn up because of doping and cheating?  This point of view: "it's what we got, so live with it," is so asinine and ridiculous, I can't believe your argument!  And what is this defense of Farid?  Is he the only one on this foos planet with a vision? Or is he the only one who got 5 manufacturers to collude to corner the foosball market?  He has proven NOTHING to show how his vision is bringing foosers of the world together.  World Cup, gone... World Championships, in Nantes, not even Paris or London or Berlin, instead of South Africa.  WTF is this guy doing except having pretend championships in his backyard?

[Will17]

ok... i feel like the logic that I used in all of my arguments have proven several times over that my point is valid. however to make this even simpler, i'll take the example out of it and just use words that the example was supposed to represent. If a ton of people were playing something that is not foosball(pick anything you want), but called it foosball(even though its not foosball), and brought that to the world cup of foosball, pretending that it is foosball, then someone would need to step in and say that what they were doing is not foosball, and that they can make there own world cup for the game they play, that is completely separate from foosball. right now that is the ITSF. maybe there guidelines are more firm and exact than you would like - because you think that a 6 ft table could be acceptable - but someone needs to govern the game.


No, it is not exactly the same.  Even if the ITSF is the only organization, SO FAR...
 have they ever given an indication of changing? no.

If the ATP leadership were ever to insanely mandate changing the tennis surfaces to one format, the leadership would get booted out the windows.
A. the ITSF hasn't tried to mandate changes to 1 surface, just slight modifications to keep things all within the same guidelines.
B. the ATP has made changes to improve the game, such as introducing video replay. There were small portions of people in the world upset with that, like the tornado change, but most people realized it is for the greater good.

So if you had only one international body and their members were a f*ck-up, you recommend just smiling and taking it?  Live with it?  How stupid is that? No! You criticize them, and if they do not justify themselves, you pull the plug and stop supporting them!  Other morons can come in and definitely do as bad and as half-*ssed a job as they did!

If it were even close to as bad as that then I would probably just play IFP tournaments. Until the nature of supply and demand created another governing body that worked better.

Of course it's a fallacy, Will.
I now realize that you didn't understand what fallacy meant... but If you think it means "logical argument that proved a valid point several times over" then i agree with you   

If thousands of people around the world happen to be playing on 6ft tall foos tables, and get shut out of the "supposed" Worlds, then that really wouldn't be a representative World Championships would it?  It would only be a world BonziniTornadoGarlandoRobertoTecball championships, but nowhere near the Olympic ideal.
no it would still be the world championships of foosball, and whatever the other people decided to call there sport, they could have there own world championships, if rico was best at "superhightableball" then he would probably go to that tournament as well. however if he was the best at rock paper scissors he would be in those world championships too...

And like ALL good, tough, cooperative world sports or game organizations, the ITSF has to be able to take criticism, be able to act on it, and not make decisions on the fly behind closed doors while dealing with manufacturers.  If not then they can go hang!

I have dealt a good amount of constructive criticism to the ITSF in this thread, you should read what I have written now so you can come up with a logical argument against what I said.

And what is this defense of Farid?  Is he the only one on this foos planet with a vision?

He is the only one actively perusing a vision to get the world involved, yes.

Or is he the only one who got 5 manufacturers to collude to corner the foosball market?  He has proven NOTHING to show how his vision is bringing foosers of the world together.
I'm sure by now you know that the ITSF is willing to change the manufacturers, because I wrote about that before, and it is on the ITSF web site. More importantly this is what he has to show for his vision: The world cup, a world wide ranking system, a rules system used everywhere in the world. these did not exist until his vision brought it... those are much more than nothing i'm sure anyone would agree.

World Cup, gone...
I better refund my plane ticket then, because I don't think I am going to enjoy playing in it if it doesn't exist anymore...
In case a reader doesn't know i'm being sarcastic, it is not gone, it is happening in january in nantes.

World Championships, in Nantes, not even Paris or London or Berlin, instead of South Africa.  WTF is this guy doing except having pretend championships in his backyard?
He took it out of south africa, i'm happy about that, however I think that it should have been decided diplomatically that the worlds be moved, and also where they were moved to.


All in all, i do see where you are coming from, and I understand completely the difficult changes that they are making. They may be hard to take, and by all means do something about it. If you were to start a tour, organization, even CORPORATION, that promoted foosball in a positive way, I would support you for doing it.

[foozkillah]

Will17,

Since you insist on not recognizing that in the US, including foosball players, it is useless to to try to convey to you the horror of any kind of outside influence or rule with no representation, I will agree to disagree.   Either because of the vagueness and lack of communication from the ITSF, perhaps misrepresentation, or for some other purpose, US players are now aware of how dictatorial and non-consultive the ITSF is, with everybody.  I believe that a growing majority of US Players, led by several of their top world players, no longer support the ITSF with it's high-handed dealings through Brunswick-Valley-Dynamo or BVD.  IFP, which has a growing following, especially among new recruits does not suffer the day-to-day instability of Brunswick and several divisions including Valley-Dynamo are now on the block.
International play is nice, and Olympic play is a nice dream, especially for the 50 or so elite who get to go, but has never been needed by any of the countries or federations involved.  But especially in today's current economic conditions, international play is a luxury that many US players (or Euro or South American or Asian players for that matter) can do without for years.  It is incumbent on your adored Farid to foster trust and a better line of communications, if that's possible after the recent rule changes from Nantes.  (yes we all saw how the foosballboard.com user AmericanFoosball tried to go through the nightmare of the ITSF.org site).

IFP is probably going to be an adversarial association despite all the nice talk, and they definitely have no trust and a very low opinion of BVD management.  The ITSF may just be another idea that won't pan out.  I know the individual manufacturers and regions can go on without it, just like they did the past 30 years.   And there is no need for some idiot with his or her vision.  Just use the Olympic or XGames model, (both are complete with bylaws and rules and specification guidelines) come up with an acceptable set of rules and tables, and they can go on.  No compromises with any region or nation needed.  So the ITSF can easily be replaced as superfluous, and an artifice for just making money off of peoples' addiction to foosball.

[Will17]

I also believe that our points have been made and I think your opinion is of value. Agreeing to disagree is the best idea.

yes we all saw how the foosballboard.com user AmericanFoosball tried to go through the nightmare of the ITSF.org site).

I have a sneaky feeling AmericanFoosball may be our very own BBTuna... Outspoken, well informed, and passionate anger, just a hunch.

___________________________________________________________________________

What ever happens in the next little while, I hope it brings more foosball to places near me and you.

[americanfoosball]

Will,

"Outspoken, well informed, and passionate anger"

thanks, I take that as a compliment

I am working on a Blog (maybe the first foosball blog?) and hope to open that for business soon - I have the site and I am trying to get familiar with it

I want to make sure I have plenty of material to draw on if everyday foos stuff is slow and that I can write regularly, I have been hesitant to start it because it will take an ongoing comittment to make it relevant

we will see

[foozkillah]

Si, mi Gringo,

You could get AngryAmericanFoos.mad or something like that.
Hope there aren't too many rants, but tales of womanizing and debauchery instead, all in the name of foosball.  And you can even put in why those sheep were tied up to the foosball table, too!

It'd be great to have like a "Top Ten Reasons to Invite the ITSF to Your Home."

Or, "My 10-year Nets Guy was an Alien".
Or, "My First Goalie was a Pony."
Or, "My Forward is a Serial Killer."
Or, "Why the Chicken Wing Crossed the Road."

[Will17]

American Foosball -

It was meant to be a compliment, while i don't agree with everything you say I know it is put together well and I obviously respect that you are trying to do your part for foosball which is always good.

And as for starting the blog, i'm sure many people would read it, including myself. Post on this board to let us know when it is started!

[americanfoosball]

Killa,

I will make sure it has humor...got have substance but it needs balance so if I start tipping the scales one way or the other, please remind me with a quick slap in the face because foosball is supposed to be fun

Will,

You don't agree with everything I say...Yet!  It takes time to bring people around, but after a couple of drinks, sharing a blunt, and my special Jedi mind tricks you will be repeating after me..."You don't need to see his identification" "I don't need to see his identification"

[americanfoosball]

Killa and Will,
thanks for the support...serious note...I really didn't come up with the Americafoosball name as a Nationalistic thing, it just has come off that way with the ITSF thing on the other board

the reason for the name was because I don't feel I know or understand international foosball well enough and the foosball I am worried about is here in the states...regardless of what international foosball does or who is connected to it, foosball in the US has plenty to be proud of and plenty to work on

I think I tried to make it clear on the other board that I am not anti-international, I don't have a Euro or Asian bias or any specific country or region

further I don't have a bias toward tables or methods, my concerns are for foosball health and growth in the America's (primarily US) balanced with reason, planning, and hope

I have never thought of myself as angry and most subjects I will talk about won't have that tone but I have grown tired of the way players are treated and that they do not have any representation that isn't potentially compromised by relationships with conflicts of interest

Also, I think US foosball won't MATURE until there is a League apart from the table manufacture

[foozkillah]

What's funny is that the first promoter to have enough M & M's to dump Tornado was Mary!

And because she organizes, plans, and promotes foos in the way Valley and then Brunswick should have done decades ago, suddenly America is a multi-table foos country again!

No disrespect to Alan and Bonzini USA, since they have declared their wish not to break into the major market segment and share, but just wish to have their Eastern Seaboard tour and their awesome charity events.  OF the players, BY the players, and FOR the players.  Proof of their iron chkn nougats is shown when they told Bonzini and the ITSF to take the new ITSF ball and stick it deep with a steel toed boot, the hard way.

If Mary succeeds in meeting with Euro and Asian and South American top players and promoters, (LEAVING THE MANUFACTURERS OUT) she might be able to persuade them to go to the US and try the well capitalized new Warrior tour, and even have multi-table events in conjunction with Warrior Worlds.  I even suggested to her to bring 3-4 of her "IFP" customized Warriors to her hotel in Nantes, where I'm sure all those intl players and promoters would just eat up checking out the American ballcontrol Warrior.  Of course, that might get her banned from the events room, if she's too successful, hahaha!