Topic: ROD'S here's my thoughts. Hear mine and I will listen to you

[sirflair]

Thought number

1. I do not think that people care weather the rod is hollow or solid, I think it is the weight difference that is where the preference lies.

2. Hollow or solid, quality is also an issue. Who wants a hollow rod that is bending out of shape all the time, or a solid one for that matter.

3.The best hollow rod I know of, ( and maybe the ONLY one worth using ) is the so called Mercle Rod.

4. It is not cheap to produce a rod of this quality and the wholesale cost is around 250-300 per set after all is said and done.

5. All 8 solid rods together weigh a total of 5 pounds more than a good hollow rod.

6. Impossible to sell tables in quanity to the home market with this added cost.

7. Is possible to use on tour tables only. Cost probly 30-40k. Better to put this money into rods or prize money on tour? The only other answer is that an extra 100+ players were not coming to IFP-warrior tournaments strickly because they played on a warrior table and then stopped coming to the tournaments for the sole reason that the tables have solid rods that weigh a few more ounces each.

8. I myself must admit I slightly prefer a Mercle Rod. But I also sincerly believe that if I was just a foosball player and not a manufacturer that the rod on the warrior table now is not a bad one and there is no way that alone would stop me from attenting tournaments that have bigger- better payouts, fun atmosphere, lots of freebies and special treatment, and smoothly run.


Now that you have graciuosly listened to my thoughts. I would like to hear yours!


All I can guarentee you is I will do the best I can to bring this sport to the much higher level that it deserves to be. It's not just about all the wheelbarrels of cash i am making on foosball ya'know.

[foozkillah]

Thought number
1. I do not think that people care weather the rod is hollow or solid, I think it is the weight difference that is where the preference lies.

Sounds reasonable, Brendan, but unless you can find solid rods with the same or even less weight than decent hollow rods, it's the same argument.  Most would prefer lighter, especially if at a regional or major, as the wear and tear from moving the rods would HAVE to affect players by taking more energy not just for practice but also for that last extra bit of speed during the game, especially during the latter ("money") days of the tourney.   Warming up is one thing where that weight's an advantage, though.

Thought number
5. All 8 solid rods together weigh a total of 5 pounds more than a good hollow rod.

Do you mean the set of 8 solid rods taken together weigh only 5lbs more than a set of good hollow rods like the Merkel rod?  Then that's roughly 0.625 more pounds per rod... or 10 oz extra.  Like strapping 10 oz weights to your wrists while playing forward or back, or to those familiar, strapping on 10 oz boxing gloves on each hand while playing.  Sounds tiring if one has alternatives.

Sounds like a winner, solid rods, with durability and low cost, for 1-4 hrs play 1 to 3 times weekly in a home gameroom or den, but definitely a bit heavy for 12 hours practice, warmup and competitive play for 3-5 days at a big event...

Thought number
8. I myself must admit I slightly prefer a Mercle Rod. But I also sincerly believe that if I was just a foosball player and not a manufacturer that the rod on the warrior table now is not a bad one and there is no way that alone would stop me from attenting tournaments that have bigger- better payouts, fun atmosphere, lots of freebies and special treatment, and smoothly run.

Having played years on TS, I feel the same way.  And your tourneys can only get better and better.   Although I would say it doesn't hurt in the long run to come up with a high-end tour table, plus one or two in-between models, besides the home model, to address market segmentation ... and doing it eventually but more slowly and deliberately won't hurt while following basic market penetration strategy.

And have you checked out that new Fireball "Pro" (not the basic Home) as seen on http://www.fireball-kicker.de that seems to be doing well in China and India and SE Asia, besides Germany?  If you could come out with some of their innovations and improvements obviously pointed heavily towards Tornado style table features and quality, you could come out with a Kick-B*tt, Take-Prisoners-but-only-for-Torture Professional Commercial grade Warrior table.  That would be a really nice "dream" table...

[Old Meister]

I say let the Warrior be a Warrior and a Tornado be a Tornado. One of the things we had going in the 70's was the different tables to play on. Each had it's own characteristics and that brought about different styles of play. The changes Tournament Soccer made in their own tables was more drastic of a difference than Warrior is from Tornado now. I think Warrior's R/D should be aimed the same direction as it started out, making a quality table that recaptures the play we enjoyed back in the heyday. A table where your imagination is the only limiting factor.

[foozkillah]

I think Warrior's R/D should be aimed the same direction as it started out, making a quality table that recaptures the play we enjoyed back in the heyday. A table where your imagination is the only limiting factor.

Now that's a very interesting opinion about the core and focus of Warrior.  If I remember from Brendan's first Warriors in Vegas at the 2003 Spectacular, that Warrior was even more similar to Tornado's, especially when they (the current Tornado's) had completely established their stranglehold with coin-ops with durability and standardization of play, if not the accessories or the components, at least.

And if I recall correctly, those changes started and implemented the past two years had more to do with not getting sued for patent infringements.  Where did you get this insight that Warrior is made to recapture the play enjoyed back in the heyday of many more tables and styles?  I don't see multiple models out, then or now.... all I see is trying to get ONE MODEL OF a home-model table produced and distributed at a very low cost, attacking the only market (at least then and recently) still vulnerable and accessible, before going on to coin-op commercial tables, after having built enough mindshare among foosball enthusiasts.

The Warrior seems to play well, but also at a very high similarity in style to the Tornado, still the 20year dominant commercial table for American style play, and in just about every foos venue except spots on the Eastern seaboard and a few others...  And if Brendan and Warrior had wanted to recapture the old style of play, he could have just bought into the old TS or made his own copies of that style.  Or even perhaps of the original Dynamos.  

[Old Meister]

I might be wrong, probably am, about the direction Brenden took. It seemed at the time that I heard he was old school and that his table would support that type of play better than Tornado. Yet it would be similar enough to Tornado to support modern day play also. Banks, back pins, weighted rods, it sounds like old school. I don't think a Tornado-Tournament Soccer cross breed would be such a bad thing. Thinking back to the days where each area had it's own style of play, Tornado was certainly aimed at the Texan style. The midwest and northwest had a little more flair and that type of play, old school, still has it's place if the table would support it. I guess I just thought that that was where Brenden was trying to go until everyone kept trying to get him to make another Tornado for less money.

[Old Meister]

Well Bob if what is familiar is easier then I guess that is true. I was 25+ years out of the game and what I came back to was these Tornado tables. How would you like to come back and all they played on was Bonzini. You'd do like me, learn how to play on them but miss the table you could do your "stuff" on. I'm getting into a good place on these tables but there will always be something missing and it isn't about catching a ball. But go ahead and throw some insults. It seems you get off on it and then throw some christian verbage around as if to what, create confusion? Get a life,,, Why are you so angry anyway? That's how you come off,,,,

[foozkillah]

There's also a lot to be said about coming to a newer table, alien as can be, and remastering it all over again.  Dwelling on the past is an old fogie habit, like some poor souls in the chair at some retirement homes, not learning the new WII games, cellphones or the Internet, OR getting back into the senior community by simply watching current shows and interacting with the rest of the world.  Just muttering about how it USED TO BE, WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE, COULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE BEEN.  Hopeless.  Decrepit and Lonely.   Especially if one starts using religion as a crutch AND A WEAPON(?).  I'm wholeheartedly Christian in ethic, AND I continue to follow what it says on HOW TO LIVE peacefully and honorably, while being mindful of everyone else in this world...  I am disgusted when others throw religious dogma and scripture at others, like bigoted cultists and shut-ins, who despair of this world and think people are impressed by their ability to read, thinking it proves they were "righteous."  

There's few things grander than adapting to a weird different table, like the look Nadal saw in Federer's eyes (crying) after he took him at Wimbledon 08 and the Australian Open 09.  That look, "I own you, even on your best surfaces."   I've always appreciated and welcomed that challenge to compete on the latest courts, fields, or locations.  It might never happen again, especially with his injuries and all these other ones as young or younger than Nadal, but those moments are priceless.  And being able to enjoy and play our beloved game well with friends and kids and grandkids (NO FRIGGIN TIME MACHINE NEEDED) is JUST AS PRICELESS.  TODAY.

Otherwise you realize Alzheimer's could be EXTREMELY SAD, but a NOT SO BAD A thing, if one just HAS to live in the past and forget today's reality..  Or like being a messed up meth addict, oblivious to the world the addict can't handle anymore.  Blaming one's kids, grandkids, friends, work along with the rest of the world, for others just trying to live and work and play with what's currently out there.  The proof is out there with all these long-lived and long-toothed pro masters like Todd and Gumby still out there... We would do well to follow their choice, "Don't get mad or bitter, Get BETTER!"   So I hope noone falls into that "doddering old rickety fool," complex, but continues to fight to live and make some difference to others, NOT JUST THEMSELVES, as long as god or "the universal intelligence" or even plain dumb*ss luck keeps them on this planet.  I would hope everyone grows forever in any way possible, long as possible.

[foozkillah]

And I would prefer that all Christians, before becoming smug and ever so self-satisfied with his or her "faith", or repentance, SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER BEFORE JUDGMENT DAY... Remember Abraham & Isaac?

How about these

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What have YOU done lately?  For your family, for your foosfriends, for your community?  That's what should be coming from all supposed faithful, repentant God-fearers, not quotes from a Bible like a Rev. Jim Jones throwing invectives as if they were silver bullets.   And I sincerely hope all the JACKASSES out there remember that FAITH IS NOT A PERPETUAL DEBATE TO BE WON, but one's spiritual commitment, underpinned by the solid rock of YOUR WORKS IN THIS WORLD.  ONLY JACKASSES SEE THE DEVIL EVERYWHERE AND BELIEVE THEY CAN CONVINCE THE DEVIL TO BECOME OTHERWISE.  STUPID.

That debate may be within yourself, but I daresay it better to keep it to yourself.  IT only shows more doubt, more insincerity, more indecision from within yourself.  Put a lid on it, your own mind and soul's dirty laundry.  Better if one can talk about WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO WORK ON.

[Old Meister]

I will say 'Killah that I have learned a lot on Tornado tables that I didn't on any of the others. Basically how to play without powering shots and still be fast. It's like these tables do the power for you and that is the trick isn't it? Not getting caught up in that mindset of powering shots when it heats up. Every type of table had it's type of play so you do learn on each. Those afraid of solid rods are as guilty of what they might accuse those old schoolers who do like them. Also, we are saved by grace,,,

[foozkillah]

Yep, OM,

I agree that Tornado's seem to have a lot of features that help consistency and ease of power, and prolly why McCloud & company won all those awards, and they basically took over from 87 on, dominating almost all North American play, for over 20years...

Only product with all kinds of similar little innovations for durability and playability recently seems to be that Fireball.  I like it more and more each time I read or hear about it.  Everyone else, including Tornado, seems to be  just adjusting or changing to fix what's broke or complained about.  At least what's broken or dysfunctional in some ITSF braintrusts.

[sirflair]

Old Meister, you are more in tune with me than anyone else on this thread, Bob.C, I know who you are, played with you a bunch and played against you several times in the old days and you know..... I beat you every every single time,SINGLES and DOUBLES. so SHUT THE F.... UP.

Fooskilla as you know I went to a one man goalie.... that should prove something about the old t.s days and not the ITSF. If they tried to mandate that I would have put 7 men back there if I had to.

I must admit that I thought that i needed to improve the man over T.S. so I thought I did.


I have alot more to say put my typing finger is tired.

[foozkillah]

Old Meister, you are more in tune with me than anyone else on this thread, Bob.C, I know who you are, played with you a bunch and played against you several times in the old days and you know..... I beat you every every single time,SINGLES and DOUBLES. so SHUT THE F.... UP.

Uh oh... hammer is coming down!

Fooskilla as you know I went to a one man goalie.... that should prove something about the old t.s days and not the ITSF. If they tried to mandate that I would have put 7 men back there if I had to.

I must admit that I thought that i needed to improve the man over T.S. so I thought I did.

7 men? LOLOLOL... That would be cool to see!  I do wish Warrior would allow aerials again, like the old TS barnstormers cross country and cross-England used to do in the old days...  As to the old TS days... you and I both know that if someone had put up a quarter mil $ tour, then a million $ tour using a table the players had to assemble from plywood before their matches, they still would have come out.  For all those with wanderlust back in the 70's, it was either that, or stay home, play pong if your household was lucky enough (arcades hadn't ramped up yet) work at the MickeyD's (training for becoming a noisy Redskins fan..  ) watch the green grass grow, drinkin 3-2 beers.

I have alot more to say put my typing finger is tired.

I thought you had one or two of your Warrior girls delegated to that function! ?? 

[Old Meister]

Thank you Brendon for that acknowledgement, I hoped I was right as I've been cheering your efforts  all the way. When the coin-op is available I hope to buy some and set them up locally. The scenario of an old schooler showing  his offspring how the game was played back in the day can be a positive experience as long as he doesn't feel the fool on a critical table. I think this has many times been the case. Boomers coming back to the game is a worthwhile sales target as they have the time, the money, the kids to teach and the memory of what was. A table that is satisfying to play is the last component needed. I keep hearing the thing about how it makes lessor skilled players play closer to the higher skilled players, well that is subjective to the table type. A Tornado player complains he can't do so well on a Warrior so by the same argument he must not be skilled enough right? Or it is just what it is, each table has it's own style of play and by mastering that table you have success. Keep true to your direction and vision Brendon, we already have Tornado tables and now we happily have Warrior tables.

[sirflair]

The classic contridicting complaint is that the LWSS (limp wristed spin shot) makes it easier for new players to compete and that is why it is good for the game, but a Warrior table makes it easier for the new player to compete and that is a bad thing.

[Old Meister]

I still think it goes to the fact that  skilled players will push the limits of what can be done on a table regardless of how it plays. The more playable the more fantastic the play, the more critical the more limited the play. We now basically see 2 or 3 shots at the highest level of play, limited play by way of a critical table. Playing within those confines are what most are used to now and they don't know what they are missing because of it. Old schoolers remember the days when it was like the wild west, you never knew what you might run up against, reversals, kicks, banks, curves, squirts, dinks, power palm shots, gone by the wayside,,,