Topic: ROD'S here's my thoughts. Hear mine and I will listen to you

[foozkillah]

The classic contridicting complaint is that the LWSS (limp wristed spin shot) makes it easier for new players to compete and that is why it is good for the game, but a Warrior table makes it easier for the new player to compete and that is a bad thing.

That's only too true.  But you know that if for those complainers, even if you put up a million dollar no-entry tournament with table features specifically tailored to those complaining, in their own living room, and only during those days and hours they were agreeable with, they'd still find something to complain about.  Like the color of the table feet or something....

[papafoos]

even if you put up a million dollar no-entry tournament with table features specifically tailored to those complaining, in their own living room, and only during those days and hours they were agreeable with, they'd still find something to complain about.

That pretty well sums it up.  We've become a bunch of whiners.  If I lose because my game sucks, it's because my game sucks.  If the table contributes to my game sucking (ie: warped playfield) I may not like it but I don't use that as an excuse for my loss.  Usually my opponent is playing on the same table I am.  His game may have sucked too, just not as bad as mine.

Just play each table for their own characteristics and learn to adjust.  That's not to say Tornado shouldn't be reamed for their warped playfields.  I just expect better of them, and it does appear they've fixed that problem.

As for Warrior, I still consider them a work in progress, so I'm cutting them some slack while they try to evolve into their final product.  In the end, they're going to have to get the quality up to satisfy me.
(by the way, I voted for hollow rods on the other forum as a preference rather than a quality issue)

[bbtuna]

for sure but I am looking forward to a table with Tornado build quality and best play qualities designed with the play characteristics of TS (or its equivelant) where all shots were equally capable of being executed...after 30 years, with a player/business man and a good engineer, there is no reason they can design the nearly perfect table

they may not push the engineering as far as I would like to cost no object but i expect the 2nd gen Warrior to be the best playing table in the history of foosball

i can't wait to be able to do banks from everywhere like you could on TS...you can do banks on Tor, just not all of them and not consistantly and not to 2 or 3 spots each direction on the 2 and 3 rods - you can shoot a push kick and pull kick but you can't do 100% of the options consistantly every time which is why there are so few of these in the game

you can do a back pin, i can tell you, but not like on TS

don't come back at me with an old guy TS blast...i have never been on the board as a TS homey and have embarced Tornado and have learned to like many things about it...but if I could, I would always pick a table that offered a playstyle that has more options

This is what I want and believe Warrior is close to now and will be in 2nd Gen

here is what I hope for...

Like Tornado
-Built solid for a lifetime of play
-Level indestructable surface
-Great bearing system
-Men and rods same length height etc
-Ball that lasts at least as long as Tornado stays round and rolls true its entire play life - already done, Warrior has the best ball of all time if it comes out the same way every time as it has so far - if I had my way, the only improvement I could make at this point would be make it slightly heavier
-Table with great tic tac capability
-Ball Return system solid and reliable
-Same size goal, height and width, greak goal box that sounds good and can take a beating

Improvements Over Today's Tornado and Warrior-Rod holes drilled consistantly at the same height
-Goal edges designed not to blow out
-Tournament version that has Merkel rods for at least the 2 and 3 rods
-A scoring unit that doesn't look like it was made for Toy-R-Us - scoring unit to be professional, tough, flexible and includes units for time outs and games
-men with Straight edges so banks and angles are at least as good as TS
-man/rod/side (or side strip) that are designed so that the ball doesn't jump off the table when shooting open hand shots from goal
-stable and weight - -
LEGS:  i know the design of the Warrior already addresses this some with the leg coming all the way up the height of the cabinet and that is an improvement but what is gained in design stability is lost with the light nature of the table and so becomes near a wash - if it was me i would design a tournament table that had that basic leg design but I would build them to allow lead shot or sand to be easily put in or taken out of each leg to add weight
FEET:  again, War addressed this with the bigger pool table feet which I really like but I think the connection point, the plate that attaches to the leg and the threading mechanism could be significantly improved - even with better leg design and wider feet, the leg leveler is the weakest point of the stability design - the plate needs to be nearly one with the leg and that threaded shaft, is where all table movement is transfered to when it comes to balance and so that design, needs some beefing up - make sense?

AND A Table That Has
More control without losing speed

Ball control chart

Low ball control              Med Ball Control               High Ball Control
1        2        3        4         5         6         7        8        9        10
Glass surface         Current             Warrior                       Bonzini
tble rock hard        Tornado         TS                               cork ball  
ball    

[Old Meister]

I've wondered about a slate bed like pool tables have, heavy and true or even a concrete bed as the forms and mix create the quality so just glue on the play field and call it good. But I like Bbtuna's direction and ratings. He pretty much "gets it" as to where things need to go.

[bbtuna]

problem with slate or concrete is the immense increase in manufacturing and shipping costs.  If you produce the legs right, they can ship hollow and they can be filled on site or at tournaments or not at all if you are a route owner and you have tables in places where it doesn't matter.

now i would look into making the legs out of metal like what is used for high end audio stands...this have some weight themselves but it isn't crazy excessive but they are indistructable and can be filled with sand or led shot.  using led shot (which isn't cheap) with a 4 inch leg that went all the way into the cabinet, you could put 100 lbs in PER LEG...think about how that table would play

i would like play to be able to be very aggressive without causing jars and a design like this would go a very long way toward that end...the table would be stablized by the leg and foot design as much as is reasonable and the full loaded tournament table would weigh 550 plus pounds...now thats what I'm talking about

[ComebackKid]

Bump

[foozkillah]

problem with slate or concrete is the immense increase in manufacturing and shipping costs.  If you produce the legs right, they can ship hollow and they can be filled on site or at tournaments or not at all if you are a route owner and you have tables in places where it doesn't matter.;;
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Slate or concrete, OM? For the playing field?  Wouldn't that create more problems wayyyy beyond just manufacturing or shipping costs?  Part of the reason you can even decently grip certain balls, even on shiny, lacquered or laminated foosball surfaces is the slight, but definite "give" that the surface has, in conjunction with the flex of the rods and playing figures.  Which is why they don't play the highest level pro basketball or other traction intensive gym sports or games on concrete, if their organizations can help it.  Hockey with the ice over concrete has the express and opposite need for puck and skate slipperiness, so if tables went to slate undersurfaces like pool or billiards, it would alter the game into less of a ball-control game.

Might be fun, but even today's "Colorado clears" would get even easier to execute, as a beleaguered goalkeeper could much more easily pop the ball off a slate-bottomed field, despite giving it up to the opposing goalkeeper, same as hockey teams can purposely take an "icing" call, to stop the clock (deadball) and prevent a looming turnover and/or stuff near their goal.  As a much weaker goalkeeper might, giving up the ball and relying on a stronger forward to steal or trap the ball up front.   Another huge problem from the loss of "give" would be the added wear and tear on pinned balls getting hit, which would definitely lead to more persistent damage on the playing figures, and a lot more cracked playing figures.

I, for one, would much prefer better precision manufacturing to get tolerances down and have truer and flatter playing fields, which should be a one-time change, anyway, whatever the development costs.  I seriously would have problems with a slate-bottomed, non-flexible playing field.  I have a jump stick for pocket billiards, however, and on the other hand, I would enjoy being able to do "pop" jumps without executing an aerial lift of the balls.   Which shouldn't be too tough with a slate-bottomed surface.  Might be worth all the extra spare figures one has to order to replace broken figures.  And my ball-control is relatively the same for under-rod non-pinned balls, and is almost as high as my pinned ball-control, anyway.  So whatever....  More tic-tacs, no problema.