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Need help with snake shot

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Need help with snake shot
« on: February 26, 2006, 08:05:53 PM »
Hey, right now I can do the basic snake shot at a relatively comfortable level.  By standard I mean simply either pushing or pulling it to the far ends then shooting straight.

Now I want to learn how to cut using snake.  Is this possible? 

----------------------------------------------------  GOAL
    l                @                     l
    l                                        l
    l                      @               l
    l_______________________l     @ = defending player

For example, when people block like that, I want to pin the ball in the centre, then strafe left and cut the ball right in between the two defenders.  Any tips on how to do that?  How much pressure do I apply on the ball while moving it sideways, and how much do I have to move compared to straight shots, etc.

Thanks.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 03:50:35 PM »
Hey, right now I can do the basic snake shot at a relatively comfortable level.  By standard I mean simply either pushing or pulling it to the far ends then shooting straight.

Now I want to learn how to cut using snake.  Is this possible?

It's possible but very low-percentage, the top players won't do it except as a gimmick shot in pickup games.  You're better off working on the corners and straight, then working on the short holes where you just move halfway out to one side or the other.

To execute the cut, you want to just slightly slow down your lateral motion so that the ball is like a half a ball width behind the man when you hit it.   With tons and tons of practice you might get to like 80% execution with it, which still isn't good enough to use seriously unless you're just getting shut down with your other options.  You'd be better off spending the time improving the other options and/or learning a new takeoff to use with them (if you normally rock, practice a tap setup or practice throwing in additional fast hitches/fakes on the rock and still shooting your normal options).

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2006, 08:33:57 PM »
the thing is, I usually play only with the same friends, and they know me quite well.  So whenever I shoot, they just block the corners.  I've faked strafing then shooting straight before, but I dont want to rely on mind games too much.

Also I seem to get raced when I shoot at the corners.  That is when I shoot the defender blocks it.  I am sure that they did not move before and they reacted instead of guessing when I'm shooting.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 01:44:22 PM »
So whenever I shoot, they just block the corners.

You need to shoot the short holes--in additions to nailing the long push and pull, you should be hitting the short push and pull as well.

That's something the top players _do_ use consistently.

Quote
Also I seem to get raced when I shoot at the corners. That is when I shoot the defender blocks it. I am sure that they did not move before and they reacted instead of guessing when I'm shooting.

In all likelihood your takeoff isn't smooth, either you rock faster/farther before the shot or you hitch your motion indicating when the shot is happening.  Work on trying to have the smoothest takeoff possible.

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 06:51:29 PM »
I have to shoot long because their "basic" defence (that is their defence when I have the ball pinned) blocks the short shots on both sides.  Unless you mean I shoot short and hope they will move out of the way.

What do you mean by smooth takeoff?  Shouldn't I be aiming for a sudden takeoff to catch my opponent by surprise?

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2006, 03:44:54 PM »
I have to shoot long because their "basic" defence (that is their defence when I have the ball pinned) blocks the short shots on both sides. Unless you mean I shoot short and hope they will move out of the way

If their basic defense isn't on the long, and they're blocking your long shots, then either:
1) Your shot is too slow laterally or;
2) your takeoff isn't smooth (which is more likely).

But smooth, I mean there are no telegraphs that you are about to shoot.  If you're sitting rocking the ball reading the goal, and then you "rev up" with a faser rock or a wider rock before you shoot, that's not smooth (and it's a major "tell" that helps the defense).  Even worse is if you normally rock on the center of the ball but you "wind up" slightly off-center before shooting (e.g. if you're going to shoot push side, you move you man to be slightly off-center toward you to give you more ball to work with on the shot). 

It's especially bad if your rock or other part of your takeoff tips them off as to whether you're about to go push side or pull side--you need to have identical takeoffs for those, and for the straight as well.

These are extremely common tells, and something like this is probably going on.  The best way to correct them is to work with a friend and have him explain when you're telling; next best is video.

It can be very hard to recognize yourself that  you're doing them because you don't have the defender's viewpoint.

If none of the above is the problem, you're too slow.  But that's unlikely to be the main problem.

But you really need to get your shot to the level where there's no way they can sit in the middle and race you out to the corners when you shoot.  If you're raceable, good goalies will shut you down.  Improving your takeoff makes it a lot harder to race you.

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 08:03:28 PM »
thanks for the reply.

i think my take off is smooth.  I don't actually decide to push or pull myself until a split second before a shoot, i.e. even I don't know where to shoot right after I pin the ball.

the reason why I want to learn snake is because I can't move my men fast, so I can hardly do push kicks or pull kicks effectively.  Does snake require even faster hands?  I always thought that defending the snake means reacting, unlike defending other shots.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2006, 03:18:21 PM »
thanks for the reply.

i think my take off is smooth. I don't actually decide to push or pull myself until a split second before a shoot, i.e. even I don't know where to shoot right after I pin the ball.

The problem is often that when you do go to shoot push side, you'll often "rev it up" unconsciously by rocking slightly faster or farther toward yourself (and vice-versa).  Or maybe you just rock faster before the push than the pull (for that one last rock only).  You really need someone who is a good goalie and picks up tells well to let you know if it's happening, because it's almost impossible to see it when you're doing it yourself.

Quote
the reason why I want to learn snake is because I can't move my men fast, so I can hardly do push kicks or pull kicks effectively. Does snake require even faster hands? I always thought that defending the snake means reacting, unlike defending other shots.

Almost nobody does effective push-kicks or pull-kicks.  There are a few, but mainly it's straight pulls.  For someone with slow hands, the snake is probably the best shot choice.

Defending the snake is generally less reacting than defending other shots--because it can go either direction, those "really quick handed racers" who can block moderately decent pulls just with reactions are often inept against even a mediocre snake.  If you're telegraphing on the takeoff, though, then reactive defenses become more effective.

The other thing that makes reactive defenses more effective is if you're just too slow laterally, in which case you have to work on lateral speed.

Against any _good_ shot (pull, snake, or otherwise) a purely reactive defense becomes low-percentage, you have to play a more forcing defense and then react after you've helped dictate the shot.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2006, 03:20:25 PM by SumnerH »

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2006, 12:11:44 PM »
I agree, apparently your shot is slow laterally from what I am reading. I would not practice the cut at all... A variant o fthe rollover that I would practice is a push or pull to the one or three man on the 3 rod, this shot can produce a nice cut if you are aiming for the 1 or 5 hole. My push rollover is unracable and is very smooth ;D Nothin but a "POP!!!"

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 11:19:42 PM »
I agree, apparently your shot is slow laterally from what I am reading. I would not practice the cut at all... A variant o fthe rollover that I would practice is a push or pull to the one or three man on the 3 rod, this shot can produce a nice cut if you are aiming for the 1 or 5 hole. My push rollover is unracable and is very smooth ;D Nothin but a "POP!!!"

what's the 1 and 5 hole?

so... move the ball laterally to the left, then cut it right using my furthest man?

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 06:34:34 PM »
Hypothetically there are 5 lanes into the box, or 5 holes you can shoot straight into. Defense can cover only two, almost three of these hole at any given time. Numbered from an offensive standpoint closest to you is hole 1, the furthest hole is hole 5. 1 and 5  are also known as the "deadman holes". If you shoot snake and you pin on the middle dot, you will fire into holes 4 and 5 with the push and holes 2 and 1 with the pull normally. To your reply, yes... move the ball laterally north or south with the middle man, recoil and hit it in with the 1 or 3 man. The recoil and the speed you have to use to execute this shot will cause a cut in the direction of the recoil. it's basically a push or pull kick from the front pin postion. I use it as a change-up and to get some respect on the 1 hole, because my pull is my weak side.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 06:45:45 PM »
Hypothetically there are 5 lanes into the box, or 5 holes you can shoot straight into. Defense can cover only two, almost three of these hole at any given time. Numbered from an offensive standpoint closest to you is hole 1, the furthest hole is hole 5.

This is the right idea but backwards from how I've always heard it--1 hole is the far hole, the straight option on the pull shot.  3 is the middle of the goal, straight on a rollover.  For a rollover, 1 is long push, 5 is long pull, 2 is short push, 4 is short pull.


I wouldn't recommend the "snake-kick" shot you're talking about (where you hit the ball with the outside men on the 3-rod) except as a funsy gimmick shot or a desperation move if you're getting shut down.  Concentrate on good execution of your snake and learning real options for it (square and spray push/pull to the 1/5 holes, and square push/pull to the 2/4 holes, and straight).  If you're looking to add more options, try rocking and still setups or walking the ball a la Spredeman, Pappas, etc.

But you're really best off with just the basic (parenthesized) options and trying to make them fast and smooth.  Watch Terry Moore, Rob Mares, Trevor Park, Steve Mohs, etc to see how effective it can be--the less gimmicky the shot and the more it all looks alike, the harder it is for the defense to know what you're going to do.

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2006, 02:17:17 AM »
well my friend right now purposedly bait me now haha.  Let's say 1 is the hole closest to me and 5 is the furthest from me.  He would place his men at 3 and 4, obviously baiting me to shoot 1.  Should I take it?  Or should I head for the 5 even though it's much harder to aim it.  If I take it purposedly it would be a race then.

When I pinned the ball, I sometimes lift my man above the ball a little bit, strafe left and strafe back mid then shoot.  Is that actually useful?  When people react, they sometimes get juked by my man and they don't really look at the ball

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2006, 04:07:03 PM »
i am just a rookie myself...but i think it is best to rock the ball....long, smooth, rocks....move the full length of the ball...i think that it is the best way to learn it, and shoot it... make the shot smooth too....i find it easyer to hit the ball hard when i dont try to hit the ball hard...and work on going both ways equally good...you are much more dangerus if they have to cover the whole goal then just bait you for one side....you dont have to shoot deadbar just choose your wholes well, take your time...(like 10 sec and count it out in your head) this allows you to get a good feel for the ball...not even the PM's (Billy) shoot deadbar.. Have fun and enjoy.....

Chase Pennell

Offline marty

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2006, 06:13:35 PM »
hello it been a few years  what is a snake shot ? is that a push pull our vice versa  ???