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Need help with snake shot

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2006, 05:33:32 AM »
not easy to explain... think of a front pin shot (the ball is pinned forward) from the center of the goal..where the ball is shot and moved from the wrist... the rule is that the rod can not spin 360 before or after striking the ball.. so you can "spin"(controlled spin) the rod from your wrist to your hand going push or pull.....

 

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2006, 05:49:28 PM »
hello it been a few years  what is a snake shot ? is that a push pull our vice versa  ???

Pin the ball in front of the man.  Now, put your wrist on the handle and lift your arm quickly so that the man spins up around and hits the ball straight in from behind.  That's the straight option on the snake (aka rollover, wrist-rocket, monkey, etc).

Now work on moving the ball away from you or toward you while executing the rollover.  Top shooters can go around a deadbar in either direction, making it a very fast, hard shot that can be moved in either the push or pull direction from the setup point.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2006, 05:51:51 PM »
well my friend right now purposedly bait me now haha. Let's say 1 is the hole closest to me and 5 is the furthest from me. He would place his men at 3 and 4, obviously baiting me to shoot 1. Should I take it? Or should I head for the 5 even though it's much harder to aim it. If I take it purposedly it would be a race then.

You should be able to shoot the 1 if they're leaving it like that.  If not, like I said, your shot is too slow laterally and/or you do not have a smooth takeoff (you're telegraphing when/where you're going to shoot).  Those problems need to be corrected to get a top tournament-level shot.

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When I pinned the ball, I sometimes lift my man above the ball a little bit, strafe left and strafe back mid then shoot. Is that actually useful? When people react, they sometimes get juked by my man and they don't really look at the ball

Anything that puts the ball in the goal is useful in some sense.  You won't see this kind of "man fake" much at high levels because it's not too effective against top goalies--you'll see more walking the ball, tapping it quickly to draw reactions from the defense, or extended rocks/ball fakes.

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2006, 10:06:47 PM »
still working on the snake now.  recently one thing that keeps happening to me though is that the ball goes too slow.  I am rolling up my arms at full speed already, but the ball goes in the goal quite slow.  The ball travels straight into the corners though so I don't think it's a matter of hitting the ball in the centre.  The only logical explanation I can think of is that when I strafe the ball sideways, the ball slips further from my man so when my man kicks, it only tips the ball in the centre.  How do I correct this?

Also, I can NEVER strafe the ball sideways a little bit and then repin it.  I am trying to learn walking the snake very little, but the ball keeps slipping out.  Any tips on that?

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2006, 03:47:58 AM »
Practice a full rock....rock on the ball the full motion of the ball..the lateral speed comes with time and practice...the rock helps with that speed....walking the ball comes later...because you need to becable to move and rock the ball aroundb4 you can walk it...(i think)

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2006, 11:52:26 AM »
well I can rock the ball easily, assuming by rock you mean you moving sideways with the guy always pinned

just that when I pin the ball it's not at the centre sometimes so I want to "walk" it a little bit to move to the side, it usually fails tho =/

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2006, 10:11:57 PM »
well my opponents are making it more difficult now to get the snake in, this is how they mainly defend.

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6033/jitz6qg.jpg

I'm in red, with the black ball pinned, and they defend the 5 holes with their defenders (shown as blue blocks). 

I cannot shoot straight because the gap is not big enough to fit the ball in.  If I do strafe the ball left or right to shoot oles 1 or 5, they will have a major distance advantage (almost a full man), making this "race" very hard to win.

The ideal solution to this form of defence I think is probably strafing the ball left to around hole 2 and cutting it right to around hole 4, in between the two guys.  Can someone give advice on how to do that?  How much should I move the ball?  Do I apply less pressure on the ball while strafing?  Or maybe I should do another kind of snake instead?

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2006, 03:07:18 PM »
well my opponents are making it more difficult now to get the snake in, this is how they mainly defend.

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6033/jitz6qg.jpg

I'm in red, with the black ball pinned, and they defend the 5 holes with their defenders (shown as blue blocks).

I cannot shoot straight because the gap is not big enough to fit the ball in. If I do strafe the ball left or right to shoot oles 1 or 5, they will have a major distance advantage (almost a full man), making this "race" very hard to win.

The ideal solution to this form of defence I think is probably strafing the ball left to around hole 2 and cutting it right to around hole 4, in between the two guys. Can someone give advice on how to do that? How much should I move the ball? Do I apply less pressure on the ball while strafing? Or maybe I should do another kind of snake instead?

Most tournament players will either spray it to hole 1 or come out around the lead man and square it to hole 5.  The only real alternative would be going out long and squaring it to hole 1, which is fine too.

Either should be easy to do if they're playing a stationary race.  If not, your shot is too slow or you're telegraphing (or you don't have long enough squares, but you can usually work with that by reading the defense and using the spray/straight options well).

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 10:48:23 PM »
hmm by spray it, do you mean cutting it left into lane 1 without moving the ball sideways?

hitting the corners just seem hard, since from the diagram I need to move almost 2 full lanes, while the defender only needs to move around half a lane to block my shot (his man doesno't need to totally block the shot, just a small part of his man needs to touch the ball)

i just hate it when they leave ALMOST a ball width in middle, that leaves hitting the corners so hard

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2006, 06:01:49 AM »
You need more practice... For example set up the ball in front of the hole five and try to shoot hole 1... I would't practice cutting the snake. Once you can move all the way from one side of the goal to another, practice that and try to achieve the smoothest takeoff possible..

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2006, 07:45:06 AM »
I agree...Practice your shot...with time it gets faster...to the point where they can not "race" you to the hole that you shoot... practice makes perfect...it is a very old saying but it is the truth...

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2006, 02:44:44 PM »
hmm by spray it, do you mean cutting it left into lane 1 without moving the ball sideways?

A spray is when you don't square the ball off but let it keep moving in the direction of the shot.  E.g. move the ball to lane 2 and shoot it without recoil, so you shoot at lane 2 and the ball continues out to lane 1.

It is _not_ a stationary angle shot without moving the ball at all.  The simplest way to see spray is to set up a pull shot on the 2-rod, pull it toward yourself and hit the ball medium speed forward.  Notice that the ball continues moving toward you as it heads down the field.  That's "spray".

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hitting the corners just seem hard, since from the diagram I need to move almost 2 full lanes, while the defender only needs to move around half a lane to block my shot (his man doesno't need to totally block the shot, just a small part of his man needs to touch the ball)

But unless you're telegraphing, he doesn't know when you're going to shoot so you have a head start.  Lots of people have only medium-long sprays to both sides and a good straight, as long as they're very fast and can read the defense well they can score on good goalies.

If the goalie is actually able to consistently react to your shot (ie see where you're going and move over to block it) then your shot is way too slow.  You need at least one option other than straight to be unraceable on the snake, and you need to make sure you aren't telegraphing when you're going to shoot (giving the defense a chance to react before the shot starts).

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2006, 07:40:15 PM »
Yea I know I'm slow at shooting, that's why I suck at all the other shots (push kick, pull kick, pull shot, etc...) and that's why I am trying to learn snake.  It seems that I need to quicken my shot so that my shooting speed is faster than their reaction time I guess.

On the contrary I can move sideways very well.  Most of the shots that I shoot and miss the goal, is because I hit the goal posts (i.e. due to moving too much before shooting).

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A spray is when you don't square the ball off but let it keep moving in the direction of the shot.  E.g. move the ball to lane 2 and shoot it without recoil, so you shoot at lane 2 and the ball continues out to lane 1.

I still don't get what spraying means.  What do you mean by "shooting without recoil"?  I heard that for snaking there should be a "whip like action".  For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting.  Is this what you mean?  You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?

I've also played some "active" goalies who like to move around a lot.  From the diagram, they "shake" the left guy on the borderline of lanes 1 and 2 and shake the right guy on the borderline of lanes 4 and 5.  They do this quite randomly, so it's almost impossible to tell when he's gonna go there.  They do it without leaving the middle open for more than 0.1 seconds.

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It is _not_ a stationary angle shot without moving the ball at all.

Would that shot actually be useful?  I've got it in once before (not by fluke, it was a very legit shot).  I'm not planning to use this all the time, but some defenders like to put their forward defence man in the "toes back head front" position, and this leaves me a good enough angle to simply cut the opposite way.  In the diagram I would cut to lane 1.

I am still trying to figure out the appropriate pressure that I should put on the ball before I strafe it.  Too much pressure seems to put the ball away from the goalie when I strafe it and too little seems to give the ball to the defenceman.

Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2006, 10:54:20 PM »
i try not to put alot of pressure on it..i use very little.. and try and "throw" the ball to the hole that i want to shoot

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Need help with snake shot
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2006, 05:22:08 PM »
I still don't get what spraying means. What do you mean by "shooting without recoil"? I heard that for snaking there should be a "whip like action". For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting. Is this what you mean? You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?

Cut and spray are different, but both of them cause the ball to move at an angle.  There's also a third common way of controlling angle, called recoil (recoil is essentially the same as the "brush" used in brush passing).

Cut (also called chip, especially in passing--e.g. "chip passing") is when you hit the edge of the ball with the corner of the man.  Bank shots are often hit this way.  A stationary ball will move at an angle if you cut or chip it, and you can cut a ball in either direction (away from you or toward you) no matter which way the ball is moving.

You can hit a chip/cut shot with a stationary rod that is only swinging at the ball and not moving toward/away from you (just line it up so the corner of the man hits the ball and swing straight).

Recoil or brush is when the face of the man moves across the top of the ball--the corner of the man never hits the ball, it's all about the friction between the man's face and the ball.  Like cut/chip, recoil can move the ball in either direction (away from you or toward you).

You cannot hit a recoil or brush shot without moving the rod in the direction of the recoil/brush.

Spray is simply the momentum of the ball--the ball must already be moving laterally before you hit it in order for it to spray.  And you can _only_ spray in the direction that the ball is moving.  Indeed, since spray is simply the ongoing momentum of the ball you don't have to do anything to make it spray.

In fact, any shot that you move sideways will automatically have spray on it unless you apply brush/recoil to counteract that motion.  This is why newbie pull shooters have trouble shooting against a reverse defense, and why most new goalies who shoot a pull only shoot options that angle toward themselves (either sharply or more shallow angles).

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For example if I decide to shoot in lane 2, my man should actually go all the way to lane 1, then "whip" back to lane 2 while shooting
On a snake, the recoil does in fact come by moving the rod back toward (or even past) the center; if you shoot a square shot to the 1-hole, you recoil back to the 2- or 3- hole during the shot to make it square off instead of continuing to angle out.  You'll see a similar motion on a good pull shooter, who will move the fod back away from themselves when they're squaring off the shot.

You can also lessen the angle of spray by hitting the ball harder and/or moving it slower laterally.  The faster you're moving the ball laterally, the harder it is to square off that lateral motion.  The harder you hit it, the less it'll spray.

NOW, mastering recoil is really the key to good square options.  But recoil is not always good.  A long, square pull is slightly slower to the long hole than a pull that comes 2/3 of the way across and sprays the remaining distance.  Many shooters will pick whether to spray or square based on the defense they're facing.

The snake is no different.  You certainly need long square shots.  But if you're being raced, using spray effectively can speed you up to the corners.  IOW, if you're shooting toward the goalie hole (as opposed to the hole the 2-rod is blocking) then you may shoot a spray shot instead of a square to beat him a bit faster.

One final thought on chip/recoil/spray.
Chip shot can get the most extreme angles on shots, but it's nearly impossible to hit consistently.  Look at how few pros use chip passing or cut shots up front, or even bank shots--it's not too hard to get to where you can execute it well 80% of the time, but that means you're cutting down your effective possessions by 1/5.

Brush/recoil is perhaps _the_ single most important skill to master to get really good at foosball.  It affects passing, shooting, and you need to know about it for defense to be effective.

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I've also played some "active" goalies who like to move around a lot.  From the diagram, they "shake" the left guy on the borderline of lanes 1 and 2 and shake the right guy on the borderline of lanes 4 and 5.  They do this quite randomly, so it's almost impossible to tell when he's gonna go there.  They do it without leaving the middle open for more than 0.1 seconds.

This is what good goalies do: they make you have to guess where the hole is and execute to hit it, instead of just taking your time and executing when you're comfortable.

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You also said that I shoot at lane 2 and the ball goes to lane 1, so it's like a small cut right?

No, not really.  You're hitting the ball straight with the face of the man, not cutting it.  But yes, the ball does angle outward.

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Would that shot actually be useful?

Not really, at high levels.  It's a gimmick that you might use if the goalie falls asleep or something, but it's still not a great percentage in general.