Topic: Need help with snake shot

[VRViperII]

ah all makes sense now, thanks, i've been spraying my snakes i think, maybe I need to shoot faster to lessen the spraying distance.

If I'm not using the snake, and I see the defender put his front defencement head back toe front and his goalie head front toe back, there's a big gap I could cut in between the two men right?  Would a cut or brush be better?  Just in general which one would you choose, because I know they both have their good/bad points.

[SumnerH]

IMO it's not worth messing around with cuts on the snake.  Just get the 3 big options down (long push, long pull, straight) and then add the short push and short pull and spray/square options and you're fine.

Cuts are very inconsistent, none of the top players use them on their snake shots except if they're messing around in pickup games.

[VRViperII]

yea maybe I should get the corner straights first. 

Is it better to practice both pull and push or practice only my better side (I think it's push).  In a game of 9 balls, I'd be happy if I can get 2 in with snake out of two shots.  I was thinking I could do two push snakes and get them in, then drop the snake for the rest of the match.  I'll only get two in because the defender does not know that I can only do the push side.  Does that work?

[SumnerH]

Is it better to practice both pull and push or practice only my better side (I think it's push).

Practice both (and the straight--always practice it so you are shooting it from the same setup, rock, etc), but always spend the most time on your weakest option. If your push is better, spend 2/3 of your practice time on the pull side until the pull side is better, then focus on the push until it's better, etc.

And:
1. Don't place the ball by hand on the 3-rod and shoot.  Always serve the ball, execute a real pass, set the ball up, and shoot.  Getting used to adjusting your stance properly, shooting the shot when you're not doing the same motion over and over and over, etc are all hugely important.
2. Don't spend 5 minutes on the strong side and then 10 minutes on the weak side.  Alternate push/pull randomly (with more emphasis on the weak side) so that you aren't fudging the setup for the one option you're doing over and over and over.

and really, I still maintain that practicing the shot much is a waste of time until you're really, really good.  You should be focusing on ball control and passing with your practice time, the shot will come in game play.

In a game of 9 balls, I'd be happy if I can get 2 in with snake out of two shots. I was thinking I could do two push snakes and get them in, then drop the snake for the rest of the match. I'll only get two in because the defender does not know that I can only do the push side. Does that work?

Uhh, kind of.  But if it's your primary shot, you need to get it to the level where you can shoot both sides.

I shoot a pull shot, and once in a great while if I'm really struggling I'll throw in a snake (once in the match).  I only have 2 options on it, but for a one-time throw-in that can be enough to steal a point.

But that's only if I get shut down for 15+ possessions, I'd much rather adjust with my good shot than go to a desperation fallback that I might even misexecute.

[VRViperII]

for some reason I always overshoot my long pulls now.  The bad thing is that I can't really tell if I'm spraying the ball or if I am pulling my man too much now (probably because I shoot too hard and the ball goes too fast, so I can't tell if it went straight or not).

[Chase Pennell]

put the 2bar out there and see if you can go around it....i would suggest practicing the snake all the time...or even in matches shoot the snake every shot untill you can win with it...the key would be to shoot a snake every time you get the ball on your 3 rod, that is what alot of tourny players do...only becase it is better to have one great shot then a bunch of bad or ok shots...

[VRViperII]

I think I'm spraying a lot.  I read somewhere that a recoil is useful for a snake.  For example, if I do a push snake, then I should do a small pull motion so that the ball does not spray and that the ball will go straight instead.  How important is it to recoil?  Can a lack of recoil be replaced with more strength when shooting?

[dpnaylor]

     I just started learning the snake a month ago. Fortunately I have my own table so I am able to put a lot of free time into it. I also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and feel overly qualified to answer your question.... . I started out doing great with the pull side, and lousy with the push side. Then I practiced the push side so much I lost the timing on the pull for a while. Now I am able to score going both ways. I am not a 100% yet with the shot but I am getting there.
     Here is what I learned myself so far. Recoil is key for me on the push side with the spray problem. On the push side I actually have to think recoil everytime I shoot. When you shoot the pull side the recoil happens almost naturally. I believe this is why it is so much easier for most to be better initially with the pull snake. On the push side you have to conciously pull that rod towards you during the spin, after you have moved the ball out to where you want to shoot it. That last sentence is key to the push snake....  What side are you having problems with, or is it both sides?

You don't have to move the ball much to get it around the other guy. If you try and move the ball to far, and then shoot. You will hit the ball late with the outside edge of the man causing spray.

If you move the ball out to the perfect place to shoot it, but put to much recoil into it, you will also come back to the middle to far and hit the edge of the ball, and spray it to the outside of the goal.

Try video taping your shot.... Set the camera up at the end of the table behind the goal you are shooting at. This is a huge help!!!!

I have found when you are actually shooting, it is hard to figure out what you actually did wrong. Most video cameras come with a remote that you can slow down the play or watch frame by frame.... You may not even see the actual spin on the video, because you can spin the rod quicker than the frames per second on most standard cameras, but it is still an awesome tool to pick your shot apart with.

To answer your question. I dont think recoil can be replaced with more strength in your shot.. Think qiuck, and smooth. In my opinion, none of the shots are about strength. Sometimes when I shoot the snake I am surprised at how fast I can sink a shot, and I am not concentrating on how hard I can hit it.  I have watched DVD's of the pro's, and they ALL have recoil in EVERY shot they do, unless they are shooting the straight.

Anyways, that will give you a few things to think about. I'm still a beginner, but I have put enough time in at this point to know what works for me, and what I was doing wrong. I'm interested to see what someone else has to say about it.

Keep practicing!

Dave

[RedRazor]

I think I'm spraying a lot.  I read somewhere that a recoil is useful for a snake.  For example, if I do a push snake, then I should do a small pull motion so that the ball does not spray and that the ball will go straight instead.  How important is it to recoil?  Can a lack of recoil be replaced with more strength when shooting?

He is an excellent video of a push snake and the very evident recoil needed to square up the shot.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNb18XSxLoc

also notice the postion of the ball in relation to his mans foot and the direction he is going. If I'm on defense and you set with that look and don't dribble. I will know your going to push. At least rock back and forth to keep me guessing.

[VRViperII]

Thanks.

I don't have a video camera so I can't tape myself.

You don't have to move the ball much to get it around the other guy. If you try and move the ball to far, and then shoot. You will hit the ball late with the outside edge of the man causing spray.

If I move the ball far and fast, wouldn't my guy be faster than the ball?  If I shoot extremely fast, the only possibility I can see is that I will cut back the ball to the middle instead of spraying it outwards.  This is what I mean when I say if more strength can reduce the need for recoil.

My stronger side is the push side.  I can score once in a while without recoil, and that is why I was doubting the need for recoil.  My pull side was ok before, but I stopped a while and now it's total crap.  Total crap as in I can't even shoot the ball anymore lol.

How much recoil do you need anyways.  Like a cm?

As for that video...damn, the recoil is nice.  Is that considered a fast snake though?  Even though I can't do a snake at that speed, I've seen some people in my area who can snake faster than that, and there's a whole lot more people who can shoot push kicks or push shots faster than that speed.  And when my push snake actually pulls off, I can shoot faster than that video.  Maybe the video was slowed down or something.

And from that video I can't really tell if there is a split second that the attacker's middle man is outside the goal range.  Do you start spinning once you start the recoil, or do you start spinning once you have set the ball in motion to the push/pull side?

[RedRazor]

What's funny about the "roller" is that it is almost different for every single person who shoots it, as far a how you execute the shot. I drew Pro Trad Powell last night in a local bring/draw and watched him shoot it all night, which gave me a totally different perspective as his goalie on how he shoots it. I shoot it totally different than him as far as my posture, my walking etc, etc. Nevertheless the shot is fundamentally the same for every one. Once the ball is "set" in the front pin postion it is ready to "pitch." Push or pull, you will pitch the ball to a predetermined hole. Your middle man WILL accelerate past the ball and will have to wait for the ball to reach it before it is struck. Or you will accelerate past the ball and have to recoil back to the ball. Now let's stop for a minute and go back to the "pitch."When you initiate the "pitch," you will simultaneously start the rollover. This shot is done in one motion with or without recoil. Recoil is not needed if you can shoot it straight in to the far holes, most can't hit the far holes at a very high rate of speed without recoil because of the spray.

I would do like Sumner said and practice your weak and strong sides respectfully. And practice your ball handling skills more (5 to 3 passing and catching). For example, Trad was scoring at about 50% just to be fair cause I know he can shoot better, but his ball handling ability was awe inspiring. He caught every loose ball and pass I sent his way and more or less beat their goalie with the law of averages. He got to shoot 90% more than the opposing forward and absolutely owned them will his 5 to 3 wall and lane pass. I'm glad I got to play with him caus e I learned A LOT about what I need to work on.

[VRViperII]

practiced a bit today, the recoil really decreased my spraying times, but the problem now is because I"m trying to apply recoil, my speed has reduced a lot.  My shooting power also has reduced a lot.  Does this happen to anyone?

[dpnaylor]

My shot power reduced for a few days myself. When I was doing the shot sometimes, I would get a good takeoff and barely spin far enough to just hit the ball. The ball still went into the goal but had no speed to it. If you don't get a good swing on the ball you end up barely hitting it... Sounds simple but this is what I was doing, and I new it.  I just wasn't quite sure how to correct it..... The solution for me was to go back to the basics, and just practice the straight about 50 times. making sure I was holding the handle the exact same way I would if I was going to move the ball left or right. Also, I think it is a good idea to learn the shot without the rocking motion at least in the beginning... I read that in an article on this sight I think... The rocking motion introduces a whole new set of timing variables into the shot. Dont do the rocking just cause other people do it. I can sit the ball perfectly still and score against people now. Rocking can sometimes give away when you are going to shoot...Some people will speed the rocking motion up right before the shot... I think it is a positive thing to add to your shot once you have learned the basic shot itself.

[VRViperII]

now that I am learning the recoil, my shots are being raced a lot, and I usually lose the race.  Should I practice with my fastest speed all the time, or should I practice with a slow speed with an accurate shot then try to improve on my speed?  In other words, do I practice speed or accuracy first?

[RedRazor]

Doesn't matter how fast you can go if you can't hit the hole  At least that's what she told me     
A question I would ask myself is. What was my shot % that went into the hole before I added the recoil? Smoothness and speed will come later as you practice more. Are you actually scoring at all with the recoil?