Topic: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?

[bbtuna]

Rios,

what is your point?  are you trying to bolster your arguement that no top players use a palm roll?  except of course Rico and all the top Euro players who shoot Euro Pins...you can't dismiss this like it isn't a palm roll, it is a perfect example of a palm roll

now, on tornado, outside of Rico or other Euro's you don't see many palm rolls...just a few pull kicks from the 2 bar

but the reason you don't see them isn't because they are hack shots...it is because the rollover and pull are just better competition shots on Tornado...

i do agree that it seems that the lower the level player the more likely they are to use a palm roll in a wild uncontrolled fashion...i.e. hack  but that doesn't mean open handed stuff is for hacks 

Do you know who Chris Dube is?  Apparently not or you wouldn't take a shot at him like that...Chris Dube is still listed as a PM with USTSA points -  he only plays occasionally now days but he was a feared top pro-master from 1994-1998 and still commands a lot of respect from top PM's...Chris is one of the last great pullkicks and until you see him shoot, it is too hard to explain how good a palm roll can be

on a side note, it is really sad we don't get to see great pullkicks, pushkicks, and backpins...or even Euro pins (I mean American Tornado foosball)...

[PatRyan]

Actually Chris Dube is a Pro.....

Chris is rated Master, and a Former National Doubles Champ.  He is a phenomenal player and a pleasure to watch play.  And his pullkick is a thing of beauty.

Pat Ryan

[Billings Semi-pro]

I use both the palm roll and wrist for the front pin.  For me, it depends on what I am trying to do.  Palm rolls work fine as long as you can square to ball off on the white lines (deadman areas).  If running a series of front pin shots against a good defense, I would suggest using them both.  I use both the palm roll and wrist for different reasons.  Open hand bank shots are cool.  Wrist shots are awesome to make.  Tic-tac closed handed brushes are nasty.  Pull shots are be better if shot by the wrist.  However, be careful shooting with the wrist from the goal.  If your shot is to slow it will get stuffed.  I can't count how many shots I stuffed from goalies shooting with the wrist and visa versa with the open hand.  Just make sure your wrist shot is as fast as possible and do not telegraph it.  Overall, I say learn them both as you may find them both useful in their own ways.

[foosinaround69]

Rios,
Actually Rico does use a open handed europin not wrist.  He doesn't go as far up in the air as most people do with the palm roll but if you look at his shot it is open.  I used to use the same method

 bbtuna,

 I hear you!!! I wasn't trying to start somthing as i was defending myself when you said "despite someone on here saying...." I have had the opportunity to teach many of the players in my area for a long time now and I understand the game as well as anyone in the game and enjoy it to it's fullest. That's all. My passion for this game is ...undying if you will and the more advice we all can give to those who would like to learn this game the better. I like reading what you have to say . It'sobvious you know about the game I just want to put in what I may feel and know as well!!        

As far as playing each other that would be great!! I'd love to see your backpin as well. Spree told me he had not seen someone shoot it as fast as I did or the way I did either, and said I shouldn't shoot anything else. So I have definatly put practice in to perfect it the way I have,  and when it does not work (yes it happens..lol) I shoot my pull.

[bbtuna]

foosaround,

i didn't feel you started anything and i wasn't trying to either...I didn't remember who it was that said they shot the palm roll pin so i definately wasn't taking shots at anyone in particular

as a matter of fact, i wasn't taking a shot at all...this is a perfect example of the exception vs the rule...I say if you can do it than more power to you, it is exciting, i love diversity in the game

my point is only that when trying to give advice to a beginner or fairly new player, I am not going to teach exceptions...that is why you don't see me telling any of these people to shoot a backpin...I think it is a great shot with great potential but it takes a giant commitment for someone to develop it to tournament level...I think it is the best shot on the table and I think it is the hardest shot to learn

so, i always tell people starting and wondering what to shoot to choose a pull or rollover and probably the rollover because in the big picture, it is the easiest shot to learn, has the least wear on a person physically, and is very rewarding when it goes in (fast, loud, and fancy) and it has a wow factor for the spectator

my philosophy is to teach basics, fundementals, standards, "rules", and then as the base of tried and tested stuff grows, then add in the fancy stuff, the lower percentage stuff, the "exception" stuff

as they get a feel for the basics, I believe it is then that a person can make decisions in developing their own unique style

if I could train someone and really influence their growth I would make them forget talk of choosing "the" shot and "the" pass series...we would have some basic stuff in mind but I would, as the trainer, have the player practice ball control at a minimum of 75% of the time...the best players in the world, today and yesterday, are the players with the best ball control...ball control will teach you all kinds of things you can use when learning shots and passes...the better your ball control the shorter your learning curve is for other things...a significant part of this game is possesion and ball control is one of the keys to getting and keeping possesions

I won't say any more on that for now but one of these days I will do a data dump on ball control

by the way, I really hope we get to play some time, I would love to see your shot and I bet wiht that shot you have other creative things in your game...Tony Spree would know about backpins, his dad is a backpin shooter I have been told...I bet Tony has a wicked backpin...after you said that i realized i was at a Tourny with Tony and it never dawned on me to ask him about it or to play him and get some feedback...hmm, maybe next time

any way, cheers and fooson foosaround

[gcp]

"And yes your stance is everything!!!!!!!"

Please explain, what the "proper" stance is. I've often thought about it but have always played instinctively. No one ever taught me so I am sure I do many things wrong but some time analysis, paralysis....

Thanks,
gcp

[Old Meister]

Bbtuna, what is your back pin series? I'm curious because a lot of my game was off the back pin and wonder if the same shots are still used today.

[EDGEER]

Fred is a freak at is not a valid example.  Nobody else in the world shoots like him, period.  If you are playing on Tornado only, I would stick to rollovers and pull shots.  They are easier to learn and as you get more experienced then venture of into others.

By the way Tuna failed to mention Dube is a Midg.....  little person with a cannon for a right arm.  An he like Fred is unique.  Now if you are 36" tall and built like a brick house you might be able to shoot like Dube. 

[Rios]

BBTuna, when did I take a shot at Chris? And more importantly why would I take a shot at him???  I already said that I dont know him and that I have only heard of him.  All that I said is that I have never known a Pro level player or above to shoot an open hand shot. I also said that Rico uses a Euro-Pin which is open handed by nature.
Now if you said that Chris is a Pro or Promaster, then he is an exception to the rule. But, like I said the "Best" players in the world do not shoot open handed shots as their main shot!!!
Now you mentioned Chris as a Pro level player that shoots an open handed shot... do you know of another one???

And as far as seeing a good pull kick.... I just played against Thor Donovan a couple of weeks ago. SO I would say I know what a good pull kick looks like and he shoots his wrist style.

I am sorry, but I guess in this day and age a strictly open handed shooter just isnt going to win. Minus, Fredrico who shoots the Euro...

[Old Meister]

You know, I keep seeing you guys touting this idea that you have to play like this pro or that pro and how this guy is the exception to the rule and so on and so forth. Each of these top pro's got there by playing to their strengths. If it works, use it, if it don't, then don't. The difference in speed and look between the palm and wrist is again up to the individual. According to some here a palm push shot is dead on arrival,,,,

[chance37]

the one guy ive played against that shoots a good palm euro shot is also short and like ed said built like a brick house......thats funny.....

[snake eyes]

Yes there is Thor Donovan from South Dakota. Open Handed pull kick...

[Rios]

Thor is from Des Moines, Iowa
and he shoots his pull kick closed handed...

My whole argument was that if you look at the top players in the world NOBODY shoots an open handed shot! With the exception of the Euro-pin. Now... I totally understand that if you are good at an open handed shot then good, go with it.
But, is it a coincidence that NOBODY in the top 50 shoots an open handed shot?  I dont think so, there has to be something to it...

It is the same reason why NOBODY in the top 50 shoot a back-pin, push, push kick, or pull kick!!!  There has to be some kind of reasoning behind it... it is simply because those shots DO NOT WIN.

Believe me I love shooting those other shots! I think they are fun and different. But if I go to KY or Worlds or whatever.... I am shooting eaither a snake or a pull or if I was Fredrico... a Euro-pin

[chance37]

i think the problem is it is hard to communicate thoughts and actually having people understand what you are tryig to say....most communication is nonverbal....in this case just sript....people love to prove points wrong and always love the opportunity....I am no exception...but rios you hit the nail on the head...how many pros do you see shooting free throws underhanded....I saw some guy set a world reord shooting underhanded....the variables for error on a pull kick are greater than a snake or pull...NOT SAYING IT CANT BE MASTERED AND USED....so for a learning and up-n-comer why not learn the shots that give you less trouble....whats funny is my first shot was a pull kick open handed and worked great against my buddies...but when i took it to a tournament it worked not so good....so I learned a snake...with better results....I love the puulkick shot, think its great, and would love to see those guys listed shoot it....but If teaching someone the game I would advise against it if seriously thinking to compete at the highest level...I just hope to get to another level sometime this year

[gcp]

And now the the mutual posturing BS is over can we go back to the basics and talk about stance please? I did ask the question.....