push shot????

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Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: push shot????
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2008, 11:54:37 AM »
there can always be an exception to every rule but there is a rule for a reason...the push shot history compared to the rolloever or pull history provide a rule...the rule is that push shots don't win big can find an exception but it is just that, an, we can safely say that in the last 20 years, Rollover and Pull shots have won 95% of the championiships in Open singles and Open doubles (well, and of course Rico's Euro Pin)...there have been a couple of exceptions...Jeep's push kick, Chris Dube's pullkick and ???? not much Pushes that I have ever seen

you may become the exception but why start with so many odds against you?

there are reasons and I won't get into all of them but for now I will say you asked about the push vs the rollover so I will answer that directly..

The rollover is proven with overwhelming statistics and proven by personal testimony that it is:
*  easier to learn
*  easier on the arm and wrist
*  able to produce deeper more consistent longs
*  it can go just as deep just as consistently push side as well as pull side
*  it has the perfect straight move (it is the exact same motion as the longs) and it is very fast
*  and most importantly, it wins, it has won in the past, and it continues to win

Last thing I will mention on the push has a significant disadvantage because of two mechanical things...both of these are about limited motion

*First one has already been mentioned which is the flex of the rod...pull can have a lot since the rod is moving out and vice versa with the push
*the other is the limited motion of your wrist...I don't know why this isn't metioned more often but it is THE biggest issue with shooting a push...hold your right arm out in fron of you like you are going to shake someone's hand...palm open, baby finger paralle with the floor thumb point up toward the sky

now, without moving your arm move your wrist straight down...this is the direction your wrist moves on the do the same thing and move your wrist up...this is the direction/motion your wrist makes for a push

you have half the motion on the push you do on the the same thing only move your wrist in and down making a roataing motion and keep the rotation going counter clockwise until you get back to the starting position...let your arm roate a little with it this time - try and make the circle as wide as possible so that your hand moves as far as the range in your wrist will allow...then try this same motion from the same starting position but instead make the motion clockwise..again, make the circle at the far edge of the range of your wrist's and it is okay to rotate your arm a little

see how much more limited the push motion is mainly this motion which allows a person to get around a pull to easily (relative to a push) square off or even angle back a long and why it is so hard to get a push to have a smooth squared off push (closed-handed).  This is also why some people will use a open-handed approach to the push to enable them to square off and even angle back the long.  Problem with this is that the open-handed shot has less control and consistency overall so what you gain in distance you loose in predictability.

you think you have a good push...set up the 2 bar in deadman position, then move the man out from the wall 6/8 of an inch (about the width of a baby finger) move the goalie man so it is directly in line with this (if you have a rodlock put it on), shoot around this 17-18 times out of 20 times in a row...this is what a good pull shot and rollover can do

bottom line is, shoot the rollover and this is coming from a person who shoots the backpin and thinks it is the best shot in the world (the backpin in general, not mine)

« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 09:52:25 AM by bbtuna »

Offline foosinaround69

  • 115
  • No garder snakeshot here, just the AnacondaBackpin
Re: push shot????
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 06:54:31 PM »
When you shoot the push you are not able to see the longer holes as well as seeing the holes when you do a pull. It is as simple as that.... (that coming from pro-goalies on that subject) but as long as you practice you are able to do them at a better success rate.(lots of practice) It is true it does take a great a bit of a toll on your arm after that first day of competition!!! I think if you are determined to do something and you put your mind to it will work no matter what shot you do. Do whatever shot you score the best with and then master a few others for back ups!! i tried to shoot the rollover and for me my backpin gives people more of a problem, so I stick with it...Even though most people thought it was not going to be as successful as it became for me. Good luck in your findings and Happy foosinaround

Offline foosinaround69

  • 115
  • No garder snakeshot here, just the AnacondaBackpin
Re: push shot????
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2008, 06:58:03 PM »
Very well said bbtuna...very well said!!!!

Re: push shot????
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2009, 02:49:26 PM »
What's a backpin? I think of it where you backpin and "squeeze" the ball out. I don't see how this would be a popular shot though? Any videos of it?

Re: push shot????
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 07:35:29 PM »
During the TS days I lived by the push, I was a monster at the push, still want to be. But this stupid table won't play that way. So try to find it in yourself to accept good advice and concentrate on one of the two options. I hate it too. Roll over or pull, yawn. Sorry dude,,,

Offline foozkillah

  • 764
  • Sure Ain't A Livin'
Re: push shot????
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2009, 10:48:11 PM »
Dunno 'bout it being absolutely better to get a pull and a rollover/snake, or even perhaps a frontpin or "heelpinned" Euro.   I actually think that with the balls getting back to more "stickiness" and control, especially initial spin and control at the start of shots, the push shot, specifically the closed hand classic push shot with the 3bar rod closest at maximum to the shooting forward, might make a comeback, perhaps along with the classic closed hand pushkick.

Putting anywhere near the time, experimentation, practice drills and self-control to shoot an excellent square push, WItH THE NEW BALLS and PLAYER FIGURES, should naturally take advantage of legions of unfamiliar defenders.  Just like what happened when the first real good rollovers started to absolutely dominate tour play.  There were even doomsayers then about the pull .. Then as rollovers dominated the landscape, here came the unfamiliar but extremely deadly Euro shots from Rico, and then here come legends roaring back with repracticed, refreshed and readjusted pulls, ala TMac and Gumby.

If one really wants the push as one of their fave killshots, I don't see why taking the time to work and perfect it can really hurt a player, especially if you have a push killshot among the beginner, rookie, and amateur ranks, where they see rollovers and pulls all the time.   In the same vein, I see most rookie AAA and collegiate pitchers being groomed and drilled and indoctrinated in all the standard pitches, but I also keep seeing these unorthodox knuckleballers, with the knack of getting hitters out for 8 or more innings without burning out their arms, getting these nice fat contracts and renewals.  The big league coaching majority often puts on crushing peer pressure to develop classic pitchers but seem to always "knuckle" under and say "wow" at these K-ballers.  They always always always given these major league hitters fits.  Perhaps an aspiring forward can come up with such a push shot and SHOW THE WORLD.

Re: push shot????
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2009, 06:00:09 PM »
Killa, I hope you're right as I do practice it, both closed and palm. The one part of the shot that I miss on these tables(Tornado) is that hook that comes from the springy torque we had on the TS tables. It hooks on a pull but not the push on Tornados. That is what makes it so hard to shoot a deadman on a push shooting close handed. I'm real close with a palm shot though, I need to make it an automatic in order to consider it as a better option than the rollover at this point.

Offline foozkillah

  • 764
  • Sure Ain't A Livin'
Re: push shot????
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2009, 09:16:52 PM »

I know exactly what you're talking about on the push having that springy feel as they do on the older tables, while the same set and stroke just seem to peter out or fade on most versions of the Tornado, whether it's the men, the rod, the balls, or a combination of all three and more. (handle, hollow rods, etc...)

I have, however, seen many good push shooters compensate by coming off a front or heel pinned ball, pinching it so by staying on the pin with pressure, the forward snaps the ball towards the nearside as the 32 or middle 3 figure rolls down CONTINUOUSLY, into a push set.  The ball, however, now has weight and even spin to make it adhere to the push side of the player figure's foot, even trying to "climb" on it.  The closed hand quickset push off this initial set seems to result in tons of power and very square, even "cutback" releases.

I never realized what they were doing, until my friend from near New Orleans, Steve, who moved to South Florida a decade ago, explained what he was doing to make square long push shots that sounded pretty close to the power of a standard well hit push-side snake shot.  He also added that something about most human wrists, however, made the pull off the front or heel pin just as weak as the push was strong.  Something about the hand and wrist structure not allowing a smooth forward roll with pressure, into a pull set.  More often than not, squeezing the heel pin into a pull set made the ball squirt back towards the shooter, bedeviling attempts to catch it with a quickset pull.

And so, that's why I can completely understand the complaints about push shots on the Tornados.  Over the past two decades, I have also played one or two really good square/dead push shooters who shot from a standard end set, but they always crouched down really low, and flexed the 3bar rod in a direction almost parallel to the floor to generate the power and perform the squared off motion, all the while compensating for the nature of the 3bar rod and middle player figure.

As for a palm-rolled push, which I do see more often, it also relies on a smooth, backspinning initial takeoff to give heft, or "weight" to the pushed ball, and the ball strike is of course much harder with a palm roll, often fast enough to hit a very hard square, with basically no return motion necessary, because the middle 3bar figure's foot has come and gone so fast from the initial swing to contacting the ball at high enough a velocity to override any inertia trying to make the ball go wide off the mark.  Also harder to master the timing and takeoff, because by nature, the open palm or palm-rolled shot has to swing in an arc 4 to 6 times larger, and thus less accurately, in order to get to the laterally speeding ball.  Heck of a lot of fun, though!!!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 09:24:16 PM by foozkillah »

Re: push shot????
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2010, 01:40:42 PM »
Squaring-off with this shot is uncomfortable and makes my hand tired so I gave up on it.

Re: push shot????
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 06:51:03 PM »
Hey GM.  As you point out, the blue diamond theory of foosball underscores the value of ball possession.  It states that having the ball is so precious, and the ball must be held onto like an object of almost infinite value.  But actually, perfect diamonds are clear or transparent, not colored.  And the rarest of colored diamonds are not blue, but red. Don't want to start a rumor, but maybe that's why the new foosballs were changed to a light shade of red.  Says who?  I'll blame it on that cute goalie chick wearing the short minishirt during those sweaty late-night summer matches.  Long brown hair.  Duplicitous eyes.  Crafty smile.  Long pull that splits the men.  You know who I mean.  Yeah.  South Dakota.

Re: push shot????
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2010, 06:26:36 PM »
We have a guy here in the NW named Bob Cassity aka The Assassin who has the fastest hardest push I've ever seen in my life, hands down! He has it on Youtube I think. I had a war with him in Seattle a couple of weeks ago and I had to make him go short in order to have a chance blocking him, just incredible. He is a chiseled specimen of a man, weight lifter, hard working cowboy and a great guy to know. Oh yeah, I lost on extra balls, great match. The sound is how you measure the speed as you can't see it and he has it dialed in,,,

Re: push shot????
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2013, 01:25:30 AM »
I used to shoot the push shot and now switched to euro shot (front-pin).
I think the main reason pull shot is easier(or better) than the push-shot is because of bio-mechanics. In the push shot we use mainly our shoulder, triceps and a bit of chest muscles. While in pull shot we use bigger muscles - back muscles, biceps. You can shoot the push with very good results but you will get tired faster than if you shoot the pull shot. You cannot shoot the push shot for 6 hours 2 days in a row.

I read Tod Loffredo's interview and he says that for his pull shot the shot starts from his tights! This way the biggest muscle groups in his body participate in the shot (tights, back and biceps). He says that his pull shot very much reminds golf shot and this is where the power and speed comes in his pull shot. 
You cannot do the same with push-shot...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:31:08 AM by Malamir »