Topic: Snake Shot vs. Euro Pin

[thebodygroove]

Hi US-foosers,

I've had a little conversation with UK's Boris Atha about the pros and cons of the Snake Shot and the Euro-Pin. As I began to pepper him with more and more questions, he suggested posting the stuff in the Britfoos-Forum, and I thought it wouldn't be amiss if I put it in here as well.

So this is how where we got so far, please let me know what you think about it:

As a newbie from Germany, I'd like to use the opportunity of getting opinions from members of another "foos-culture". As you might know, most guys in Germany use variations of the Euro-Pin, and some players even frown on the Snake Shot (don't ask me why, since it's not entirely clear to me). Thus, it's not easy to get an unbiased statement about advantages and drawbacks of either shot. But with the increasing spread of hollow rods and American Foos-videos the Snake Shot players are growing in numbers, and the question which shot is "better" has become a big issue in German Foosball-forums.

My question: I'm currently trying to figure out which shot I should practice. I'm a total beginner and want to learn something that helps me win (against other beginners). I play on a Leonhart Homesoccer with solid rods at the office. (This table is the home version of the Original Soccer and similar to the Lehmacher P4P. For those who don't know either of them: It's much closer to the Garlando than to the Tornado, but it's softer and offers more ball control, mostly because of the ball itself.)

Most comments and articles I've read say that the easiest shot for beginners is the Snake Shot. So I tried practicing it, but it keeps feeling awkward. Then I tried the Euro-Pin - and to my astonishment, it seems to work right from the start. It just seems like it takes less effort to get the shot into one single, fluid motion, whereas the Snake stays jerky and laterally slow (perhaps because of the heavy rods?).

What do you  think about those techniques compared to each other? Is it really all about on which table you play? On a Tornado, how can the Snake Shot be easier than the Euro-Pin, considering that this table provides little control (compared to the German tables) and the lateral movement has to be achieved using the wrist instead of the palm? Seems paradox to me. Same goes for shots for beginners: How can the snake shot be easier? Why does everyone say that? I’m confused.

And this was Boris' answer, to which I, in turn, replied:
Most people use the wrist for the snake shot, as when the rollover is completed the rod can be grasped naturally preventing a spin.  It is one of the shots which, when learned, can become effective very quickly whereas other shots tend to start off slowly and speed/accuracy/effectiveness improves over time.

I still wonder why this is so; to me, the movement of the Snake seems pretty complicated, mostly because of the recoil. Would you agree with me when I say that without the recoil, the Snake Shot is practically useless?

As to the Pin Shot, the recoil seems to be more like a "natural" part of the movement and doesn't have to be executed deliberately. Any experiences with that?

Boris:
The snake is superior to pin on Tornado at present because the balls are hard and there is less grip than with european foot/ball/playfield combinations.  The balls are also heavy (c28g) which means that more effort is required to change direction so a walking pin is slower.  With the snake and pull shots which dominate on Tornado lateral movement is in one direction.

These words were most helpful to me because they cleared up a misunderstanding: When you (and obviously most of the authors on the internet) talk about the Pin Shot, you mean the whole tactical system of the  movements that can become involved using this technique, like walking the ball and going long lateral distances.

I, in contrast, was only referring to the technique as such, like when you're practicing: Pin the ball, move it to one side and shoot it in. So I was comparing the Snake and the Pin on a level where the trajectory of the ball would be the same.

By this rationale, I'd say that, while using the Pin Shot, since you control the handle with your palm instead of your wrist, there should be an advantage over the Snake Shot especially on tables that hinder ball control. What do you think about that?

Boris :
So in summary I would say that the snake gives you speed and power, whereas the pin gives slightly less speed/power but more versatility and finesse.

I'm new to the game, but from what I've experienced so far, lateral speed is far more important than a super powerful shot. So what I'm practicing right now is basically a Snake Shot system with a Euro Pin technique: Pin the ball in the middle, quickly move it to one of the corners and shoot it in. The reason why I do this is because I find it much easier to get the ball to one side with my palm controlling the rod (instead of my wrist). In my opinion, there's no need for walking the ball if the shot is quick enough, but should it be case one day that I'll want to incorporate walking the ball into my game, I'll be prepared for it since I'll already be using an appropriate technique.

Why don't I just go for the kind of Pin Shot all the Lehmacher players use? Because I want to learn something that I could transfer to a Tornado when I need to.

Would you say this is good thinking? Or have I again fallen victim to a misunderstanding?

So I’d really appreciate to hear your opinion about that issue, and you’d do the Kraut-foosers a big favour if you could go a little into detail concerning the various aspects of the Snake vs. Euro Pin “problem”.

[gitablok]

I would love to comment on this but I don't have time. About to go to work. Maybe you can twist Brad of TSR's arm to comment. He has had many of the same experiences on different tables across the world as I have and would be very qualified to comment on this subject. I will do so when i get off work later tonight.

Hey Brad, how's the snow...geeez. How do you do it?


ICEMAN

[thebodygroove]

Hi Iceman,

take your time - I'm not in a hurry. Doesn't learning foosball take a lot of patience anyway?

[bbtuna]

Body,

great to have you on the board, thanks for posting...good questions...I was going to recommend Iceman for sure since he has faced so many of both and Brad certainly has seen all the best of both on all the "official" ITSF tables (as well as others I am sure)

obviously Fred has shown that a Euro pin can be done effectively on Tornado...several of the Euro tables seem to pose some challenge for rollover shooters I have ideas on the reasons but Brad and Iceman can provide you the details

since starting back in the game 4 years ago, I have read and been told how easy it is to learn the rollover...I can shoot everything on the table and have not found this to be true...I think this is true for most people but not an absolute universal truth

i have found that some shots are more "natural" for some people...like, the first time I tried doing a Euro Pin pull side I could hit it deep, fast, and accurate from the first time I mounted it up...however the push side has been really really difficult and learning all the ball control and finesse part of it is a totally different story

each shot has advantages the other doesn't assuming all things are equal...meaning, you have people at the same level of maturity with each shot being compared...so if you start at the top and look at the best of each, you can see the differences on how they are used and the features and benefits each proposes regardless of learning curve

I think part of your decision will have to be made based on what table(s) you will play on most...Tornado players are basically rollover and pull shooters and between those two shots have been able to deal with table differences in international competition but it isn't an easy transition (unless you are a foosball freak of nature like Tommy Adkinson who made the transition to a multi-table look easy)...on the other side, most Euro Pin shooters have trouble dealing with Tornado more because of ball control issues than with ball weight or rod style...Fred has moved beyond that because his ball control is at another level compared with pretty much anyone in history...

however, Tornado is trying to find the right balance to give their ball more control and I feel confident that some of this will be addressed and this will narrow the control differences between Euro tables and the Tornado

I think for the beginner the rollover in general is the better shot because for most it is easier to learn and it is very satisfying when you hit it and it is a crowd pleaser for people who don't know the game

with all this said, I would not totally dismiss the pull shot, it seems to me, more and more players, young players, are choosing the pull or having it as a second frequently used shot...it has issues with Euro tables to because of set up and some other design issues on the other tables (as well as stubbing with some of them which IMO have too much control)

anyway, much more about details that can be said but I will leave that to others

again, good to have you on the board and thanks for the good questions

[TSR_Brad]

We had a discussion about this at HoFC...

From what I've observed, the non-rollover front pin is THE shot. It's virtually immune to lousy table conditions (save a super-slick Sportcraft/Harvard/Chinese POS) and has soooo many options. Kind of like a well-executed pushkick.

Right now, Tony Spredeman's shot is the closest thing to Rico's front pin. Tony's ability to move the ball around, fire to different spots and use fakes to pull a defender off a hole makes his shot extremely effective. Not to mention being explosive to either shooting side. Oh... and his five is simply awe-inspiring.

The euro-style front pin gives you the added option of using cut shots through the middle. Billy Pappas popularized the "walking snake", but I think Tony has really taken it to the nth degree.

Having said that, obviously it's not an easy shot to master... or even do adequately for we mere humans. That's not to say it isn't worthwhile practicing it. Anything you can add to your arsenal will help in the long run.

When talking about which shot or shots to learn, my advice to new players has always been to play A LOT and try to learn everything BUT a rollover at the beginning. It does two things; it builds the wrist strength and helps learn basic ball control. The greatest weapon a player can have is depth. The more areas in which you're proficient, the better your chance of winning.

Another piece of advice I can give is be to observant. I was always amazed at how Billy can get such consistent power on his shots or how Collignon manages to rip that push-side front pin. So started to really watch the player instead of the rod or the ball. It's helped me with my 2-rod shooting and I've managed to even develop a marginally proficient front-pin.

Study the mechanics... watch how Billy holds the handle or his stance when shooting. The same goes for Rico. Watch how he keeps his thumb out of the way when he shoots or the arm angle he uses to clear his body with his elbow. It's very similar to pitching. Small changes in mechanics can have a big effect. Pick your favorite player and watch what they do. Copying is perfectly legal in foosball. 

Since everyone seems to want to be a video producer, maybe I'll break out the camera (w/tripod) and show some of the observations I've made about shooting a front pin. 

[bbtuna]

good advice about trying to learn the different basic wrist shots to help with ball control skills and wrist build up and then I assume you mean some time in the future pick a primary tournament/money shot?

it takes mighty will power not to focus in on one thing so you can score sooner in the beginning but I very much like your idea

lets say he has been playing around and his wrist is fine, his ball control is coming along, and he continues wrist stuff practicing his two bar

what then do you say about choosing a shot...specifically rollover vs Euro Pin but I am curious about other shots pull ect

the game needs more free video and anything you can add will be helpful to the overall game, I for one would like to see it

oh, and just for the record, the backpin is the best shot on the table if you are going to take as much time needed to master all the front pin options, you might as well choose the best shot in foosball

[TSR_Brad]

good advice about trying to learn the different basic wrist shots to help with ball control skills and wrist build up and then I assume you mean some time in the future pick a primary tournament/money shot?

Yep... eventually you'll settle in on one main shot, although another topic we discussed was using two different shots depending on the situation/opponent, a la Tommy Adkisson. He shoots a rollover and pull with equal skill. Another baseball comparison might be the switch-hitter.

it takes mighty will power not to focus in on one thing so you can score sooner in the beginning but I very much like your idea

That's why I say "play as much as possible". If you limit yourself not only to one shot but also to one mode of play, the fun can go out of foosball very quickly.

lets say he has been playing around and his wrist is fine, his ball control is coming along, and he continues wrist stuff practicing his two bar

what then do you say about choosing a shot...specifically rollover vs Euro Pin but I am curious about other shots pull ect

I'll use my son as an example, who is a pro now... when he started playing seriously, I wouldn't let him shoot a rollover because I didn't want him to fall into that "dependence" I often see with newer players. They find themselves in goal and have a tough time simply clearing the ball. Anyhow, he developed a monster pullshot but doesn't use it too often because of elbow problems and now shoots primarily a rollover. He can still bring the heat from goal though.

Here's what happened to me lo those many years ago. When I first got interested in playing, there was a tournament taking place in one of our local large shopping malls so I thought I'd go watch. I had only a small notion of how the game was supposed to be play.  What I did see at that tournament was Ken Alwell shooting a pushkick. I decided at that moment I was going to shoot a pushkick too. Eventually Ken and I became friends and I still marvel at his shot.

Bottom line is that as I said earlier, find your favorite player and use them as an example.

the game needs more free video and anything you can add will be helpful to the overall game, I for one would like to see it

I was kind of half-kidding about the video, but I think it could show that even mortals could shoot a decent front pin with the right instruction and a little practice. I'd just like to see people challenge themselves and strive for something instead of taking the path of least resistance.

oh, and just for the record, the backpin is the best shot on the table if you are going to take as much time needed to master all the front pin options, you might as well choose the best shot in foosball

Well... I guess I'd have to go with a kick-shot, either push or pull. Not to precipitate on your organized procession, but the Tornado really isn't conducive to a backpin due to the man being so close to the play surface. The backpin also restricts your options for a middle. Anything that's going to be directed at the middle is going to have a discernible look and will be fairly easy for a competent goalie to pick up on. The rollover and pull (and front-pin) each have an "instant straight". Not so a backpin.

All opinion of course. Hey... it's still foosball to me! I love it all.

[EDGEER]

Thanks oh mighty wise one for sharing.  How hard would it be to include full body shots of these guys right before they shoot.   I love the footage of the close-up shots but I do find myself wondering where there feet and body are many times.

[thebodygroove]

Hi Tuna and Brad, thank you so much - I feel like my shots are improving from just reading your posts! If you don't mind, I'd like to take the discussion even further into detail (is that how you would say it?) since I feel I'm surrounded by sheer competence here...

So I'll be back posting some more questions. Thanks again for the extremely helpful answers and the cordial welcome to the board!

[gitablok]

Ok, my two cents.

First let me say Boris and Brad have hit the nail on the head.

Snake on a tornado. Another reason that a snake is so easy and effective on this table is the use of the counterweighted man. In the rock portion of the shot, slight pressure is applied. In the release, all pressure is released. Because of the counterweighted man's balance is centered toward the rod itself, the release is quick and smooth. In other words, you only feel the weight of the rod. In most Euro designed men however, the critical mass resides in the foot, farthest away from the rod like the Bonzini. On these tables using the snake, you now have to deal with rotational weight of the man in addition to the weight of the rod. Even though the Bonzini rod is lighter and quicker than the Tornado rod, the rotational weight of the man makes the snake very hard to shoot on this table. It's simple physics really. I guarantee if you could measure the force applied at the connecting point of a Bonzini man compared to a Tornado when the rod is spun, the Bonzini would be exponentially greater.

The Euro table I have found that best supports the snake is the Garlando. Why? The rod is lighter than the Tornado rod and the man has low rotational weight. That being said, the lateral speed of the shot increases. The lateral speed of the snake on the Garlando is simply incredible. Two tables you are familiar with, the Techball and the Fireball, support the snake because the men have low rotational weight. But because the rod is slightly heavier, the lateral speed is not as great.

The pin. No doubt, when well executed, is the best shot on the table. The options that exist are almost limitless. The more options that you become efficient at, the better your chances at scoring. In most pin shots, the man never passes the line horizontal to the table so rotational weight is not a factor. So how do you negate that heavy feel of the men? Lighten the rod. This is where the lateral speed comes from on most Euro styled tables. The weight in the foot on the pin shot helps in the "strike" portion of the shot much like holding a hammer at the bottom of the handle to drive a nail vs. holding it at the top near the head. I don't think I need to say this is why Rico is so proficient at scoring. He has at least 15 good options to score on when most people have only about 5 or 6.

With all that being said, you have a bit of a dilemma. You are in an area that has tables that support all styles of foosball. Actually, I envy you. You're going to have to decide what your commit level to game is going to be and use that as your learning curve. Do you want to be a speed, power, finesse, or some combination of these type of player.

Options are the key. The more options you have on the most tables, the more versatile player you can become. The flip side to more options however means more time invested in the learning of these options, which is why I say you will have to decide your commit level.

You have a lot of good people to watch to learn from. Tim Ludwig, Chris Marks, Sascha, Eric, and Jamal are players you can watch and learn from. By the way, If you ever see any of these guys, tell them Iceman says "Hello".

Sorry for the long boring post, I get carried away sometimes. Feel free to ask anything else.

 
ICEMAN

[bbtuna]

Iceman,

you have apologized for long posts now several times and I can't speak for everyone but I want to tell you that they are not too long, you always have thoughtful logically orgainzed posts

there is so little available in writing on these subjects and it is seldom top players and/or good teachers take the time to explain things...I think it is great for the game and want to encourage you to continue to post regardless of length...I have been collecting everything I can get my hands on for years now and am a very big fan of this sort of posting because our game/sport does not have available written material and there are so many areas in the world that don't have good players to pass on the knowledge...I have collected this stuff in hopes of leaving it all as a legacy to this generation...

I am selective about what I gather but I am not particular the source, just the content and communication capability...I never experienced you posting like this on that other site (rarely) and it is a pleasure to read you here, you are a good communicator and teacher, one of the better ones I have run accross...you are in good company, I put you (IMHO) toward the top with names like Todd (my favorite), Gummy, and Eric Dunn

so, I say post more and post often not for me but for foosball historically...I think it is very important to the advancement of the game

Thank you

PS  Brad too, this is no slight to you, this was just prompted by Iceman's apology...I think your posts are very well thought out and you are a fine communicator too

[TSR_Brad]

PS  Brad too, this is no slight to you, this was just prompted by Iceman's apology...I think your posts are very well thought out and you are a fine communicator too

Just don't get him talking about photography. Then you'll be begging him to stop.

[thebodygroove]

This conversation has a very nice tone to it. I wish more places in the internet were like that!

[foosinaround69]

Iceman,


I have to agree with Charles here as well..I like to read what the experienced players have to say. It's information alot of people ARE interested in. I've been teaching people to play this game for over 25 yrs and when I see that the better players in our game willing to let others know some insight to this game which we love..I commend it..I wish more people would do so...Cause we all want the sport to advance.

I'm not sure how long I've been on this sight but I can tell you that it's nice to see everyone willing to share what they know and love about this game. That's why I love coming on this site....To see what has been said on any given day..We all can learn from someone else no matter how long we've played for...Right?...So please keep on posting..No matter HOW long it is...I'm sure I speak for most when I say we love to absorb the wealth of knowledge from you as well as others who do the same...I know I do!!!!


P.S.      I don't see the same things on the other site, as I do here..(discussions on how to play the game) That's why I no longer go to that other site. People like Ice, BBtuna, EDGEER and so on make it kinda like a foosball family...To me that's what it's all about...Teaching and learning our sport!!!!!!!!        

[bbtuna]

Brad,

on the backpin...the lack of a straight is the most common comment about the backpin made by people who have never faced a good one...I love facing goalies like this, it is a big advantage until they catch on that they need to defend the middle as much as the corners

you can not raise your man and strike the ball straight and you can not flip it over like you do with a front pin but you can shoot straight off the same exact move as a long in either direction by moving the ball about 1/2 inch and you can come back to the hole, hit it right at that 1/2 inch mark, or cut back

people who approach me thinking the backpin can not go straight quickly learn that is not true...

it is a superior shot to the front pin because you can shoot shorts better, the "chip" is not a "chip" it is a brush which on today's table means more control and reverses are much much easier and more natural and you can do them so many ways to so many holes it is overwhelming at times

and if you are inclined to do kicks and things again the ball starts in perfect position and the kicks can look so much like the core shot - I rarely use them but depending on the circumstance, I will throw one in once in a while

you can hit deadman easier than any other shot (though I never try for this)
you can shoot long from any position starting 1/2 inch from the hole you want to hit all the way across the goal
you can hit every hole along that continuum push, pull, or reverse
you can do the same with no fake, with a fake (from a very small move to an exaggerated move and everything in between)
you can fake by walking, sliding, pounding and you can do all shots, short to long from any position in front of the goal
you can use the 31 and 33 man if you are inclined within the normal scheme of the shots core competencies

it has two weakness, one perceived (besides the straight) and one that is real and has to be dealt with

1st…the ball starts quite a bit further back, relative to the goal mouth than front pins (Euro or rollover) so the ball will take longer to reach the goal because it has to move about 2 ½ inches further at the strike point…however, this is only a perceived issue because the back swing on the backpin can and should be, much less, or nothing, compared with the move used in a open-handed motion of a Euro Pin or the flip motion of the rollover…I have watched a ton of Fred in slow motion, frame by frame and even as compact has his open-handed roll is, it is still quite high so in the end, all things are equal

2nd…the start of the shot from a dead stop is much harder than on other shots because of the muscles involved already holding the ball in the backpin position…this makes the lateral movement of the shot slower unless this is dealt with…this post is already too long so I won’t go into the detail behind this right now

so, all this is just talk from an unknown unproven backpin shooter and until a talent like Billy or Ryan takes the shot up, I will just be part of a lonely 3 salmon struggling up stream but I will continue to voice the truth during my foosball life and hope that someday a backpin champion appears and shows the foosball world what really can be one

I am making plans to film my backpin and if I can do what I want, I will demonstrate all these things