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Rollover practice routines?

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Rollover practice routines?
« on: December 11, 2008, 10:13:49 AM »
Alright, fellas, so I'll post it here as well. Please enlighten me!

As a beginner who is trying to learn the rollover, I'd like to ask the experienced and successful snake shooters which practice routines they regard as beneficial. I'm especially interested in how those routines should be adjusted to the advancing skills. Are there typical stages in the development of the shot? How can I determine which stage my shot has reached? Please let me render these questions more precisely:

1. What's the most important aspect I should focus on when I'm beginning to learn the shot?
According to my own consideration, it is steadying the course of motion in order to define the optimum point of release. I try not to worry about speed at all, as I instead try to focus on precision and consistancy. Is that correct? If so, which routines should be used to achieve this? Are there any common mistakes I should try to avoid?

2. Focus
While shooting, what do you concentrate on? The ball? The man? The release point? The holes in the defense? Are there routines which help you stay focussed?

3. What about variation?

Should I practice the very same motion over and over again, or should I try to vary the execution? For example, should I always rock the ball in the middle position, or should I also incorporate shooting from a still position, shooting from a slightly different position (a little to the left or to the right), varying the grip and stuff like that?

4. When should I start practicing the shot fast?
Do I have to hit 10 out of 10 before I try to speed the motion up? Are there specific speed routines? Should I try to keep the shot at a comfortable speed or would it be better to challenge myself and start shooting much faster than I can, even if that initially means I don't hit anything anymore?

5. Timing the defense
I don't even know which questions to ask about this topic, because it's so far over my head... Are there any partner routines that can help me build my timing skills?

6. When should I practice what?
The stages-question... I'm talking about steps one can reach with the rollover. Let's say, for example, one day I will be able to hit the corners fast and consistantly. Should I then work on shooting even faster, or should I try to bring some finesse to the shot, like fakes or cutbacks?
At the moment, I'm struggling to get the shot into one fluid motion. It's still toss-then-shoot and not smooth at all. Have I been doing it wrong? How should I practice shooting more fluidly?

Your answers will be wildly appreciated!

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 01:16:40 PM »
BodyG,

First things first:

What kind of rollover contact style would you most probably become or be most comfy with?

1. "Crouching Tiger" : crouching at about 45degrees from vertical, trying to look at the goal at the same angle, with the wrist or upper hand pretty much on the top to front side of the 3bar handle, and the forearm about 45 degrees also, to the 3bar rod.  This is probably the most common stance you'll see.

2. "Big Bird" or "Crane": standing relatively straight with a bird's eye view of the goal, very common with taller and longer-limbed armed forwards.  The forearm is more perpendicular to the 3bar rod, with the contact closer to vertical on the top-front or bottom-front of the handle.  These "Big Bird" postures often result in a very deceptively smooth stroke that surprises goalkeepers with how long the lateral shots are.  The contact with the handle is also farther away from the right wrist, more towards the elbow, which creates a longer rolling release.

3. "Sleeping Dragon": very tight crouch almost draped over the table, trying to look almost parallel at the goal, with the wrist or upper hand either:
          a) flat on the top of the handle using the forearm weight for friction
          b)"wrapped" or "snaked" all the way to the bottom of the handle.
These "intense" looking postures usually exhibit really wide rocking motion, as allowed by the tighter and harder grip on the pin.   They also result in loud, booming "rifle shot" sounds when hit.

Offline alaskan thunder

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Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 01:31:59 AM »

Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 08:20:39 AM »
BodyG,

First things first:

What kind of rollover contact style would you most probably become or be most comfy with?

1. "Crouching Tiger" : crouching at about 45degrees from vertical, trying to look at the goal at the same angle, with the wrist or upper hand pretty much on the top to front side of the 3bar handle, and the forearm about 45 degrees also, to the 3bar rod.  This is probably the most common stance you'll see.

2. "Big Bird" or "Crane": standing relatively straight with a bird's eye view of the goal, very common with taller and longer-limbed armed forwards.  The forearm is more perpendicular to the 3bar rod, with the contact closer to vertical on the top-front or bottom-front of the handle.  These "Big Bird" postures often result in a very deceptively smooth stroke that surprises goalkeepers with how long the lateral shots are.  The contact with the handle is also farther away from the right wrist, more towards the elbow, which creates a longer rolling release.

3. "Sleeping Dragon": very tight crouch almost draped over the table, trying to look almost parallel at the goal, with the wrist or upper hand either:
          a) flat on the top of the handle using the forearm weight for friction
          b)"wrapped" or "snaked" all the way to the bottom of the handle.
These "intense" looking postures usually exhibit really wide rocking motion, as allowed by the tighter and harder grip on the pin.   They also result in loud, booming "rifle shot" sounds when hit.

*ROFL* That's the best analysis of snake shot stances I've ever come across!

I'm still experimenting with different grips. Some minutes ago I tried a not-so-extreme version of "Sleeping Dragon B", which allowed good control and a decent lateral speed on an old table with heavy, rough running rods. Some of the shots also resulted in that rifle shot sound you referred to. I gotta try that grip on my smooth-action table at home and see what comes out of it.

Do you shoot a roller? If you do, can you say anything about the stages I was asking about?



http://www.foosballheaven.com/faqs/snake-and-pull-shots.txt

Taught me well...

I had already read that and found it very helpful. Thanks for bringing it back to my mind!

__

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 09:40:12 AM »
*ROFL* That's the best analysis of snake shot stances I've ever come across!

I'm still experimenting with different grips. Some minutes ago I tried a not-so-extreme version of "Sleeping Dragon B", which allowed good control and a decent lateral speed on an old table with heavy, rough running rods. Some of the shots also resulted in that rifle shot sound you referred to. I gotta try that grip on my smooth-action table at home and see what comes out of it.

Do you shoot a roller? If you do, can you say anything about the stages I was asking about?

Yes, and I've tried a Sleeping Dragon, both A and B, and I noticed that the "A", or "lying ontop" grip, allows me to do a very fast lateral throw, or "pitch", just pushing or pulling from my elbow.  This lets me get to either "post" with a slight spray push or pull long.  By "post", I mean the two most natural release points to either side of the center goal where I'm starting from.  I'm not sure which table you have, but the posts on a Tornado are defined by where the halfcircle line meets the little goal box.  There were problems with the pull side, because of the natural tendency during firing to brush back towards the goal, which sure helped straighten out to a square shot, but more often than not, made it go back towards the defending figure.  On the other grip, the "B" grip works really well with squaring a hard rock motion, because the power squared it off nicely, allowing a shot past either "post".  I didn't like the way it flexed the rod with the "B" grip.  And the concentration, strain and practice it took to consistently shoot that way.  Shooting at the 12/13/14 second mark from the Sleeping Dragon "B" can be a real back killer, too.

I've always been working on hitting very smooth, square shots just outside the "posts", using the normal Crouching Tiger stance, with the contact point just above the front facing side of the handle.  Particularly from a slight shake or a standstill pin, instead of a wider, standard rocking motion.  What seems most important is the takeoff or "pitch", which, rollwise, should only be about 1/8 of rolling the handle.  Or course I stay and follow through on the shot, but any more than that initial 1/8 unraveling where you continue to accelerate the spin of the rod, actually slows the shot down when you're trying to hit a hole only 1 to 1.5 balls wide.  If you can think of two machine rollers touching and rolling with each other, that is how I visualize shooting with my forearm and the handle.  And I always try "think" the toss or "pitch", a 1/8 tug or pull to roll the handle, while I maintain contact using just inside the upper edge of my forearm (the side away from the big wrist node) to move laterally using a very short burst.  After the "pitch", I found that using the rod's rotational acceleration to complete the shot, and the weight to start inertial lateral motion, was the best way for a consistent shot to just past either post.  I don't really try to hit a "deadbar" shot, but it is fun to compete with pullshooters in a deadbar challenge.

I notice that the smoother shots just a bit past the post, while not as brutally fast, were nowhere near as tiring and concentration draining as the Sleeping Dragon "crank" shots.  And just as effective.  And if you practice a mini-shake or standstill snake, you can always go into a medium rocking motion, but not vice versa.  I find I can always get into rhythm with a rocking motion, despite normally shooting standstill.  This also means I can just decide to stop the motion at any time, AWAY from the CENTER, and shoot straight, medium or long to either side.

In defending it, I can almost always figure out a rollover forward's giveaways or "tells" if he/she has a standard or hard rocking motion.  The trick is not to watch the motion but his/her arm and elbow position before he/she shoots straight or to either side.  Standstill or mini-shake shooters, especially those that like to tap the ball, are the hardest to defend.  And not always covering either "post" (takes major steel "foosballs" to do a defending motion with only the goalkeeper while shutting down the pull or push "post") ... meaning leaving both "posts" open, is absolutely the quickest way to getting another drink and driving home early.

Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 08:30:24 AM »
I didn't like the way it flexed the rod with the "B" grip.  And the concentration, strain and practice it took to consistently shoot that way.
Hi Killah,
I just lost 2 matches against a work mate who has no clue about foosball. The only reason for not being able to completely destroy him was that my rollover didn't work at all. I had a ton of balls on my 3-rod, and NOT A SINGLE ONE WENT IN! Completely frustrating. When I switched from Sleeping Dragon B to a more standard grip, I was able to score 2 points or so, but I might have been just lucky.

Quote
What seems most important is the takeoff or "pitch", which, rollwise, should only be about 1/8 of rolling the handle.  Or course I stay and follow through on the shot, but any more than that initial 1/8 unraveling where you continue to accelerate the spin of the rod, actually slows the shot down when you're trying to hit a hole only 1 to 1.5 balls wide.

That's something I don't understand. What do you mean by "rolling the handle"? With my shot, it's only toss and spin, without any rolling in between. Or did I get that wrong?

Quote
After the "pitch", I found that using the rod's rotational acceleration to complete the shot, and the weight to start inertial lateral motion, was the best way for a consistent shot to just past either post.
Would you mind describing this more specifically?

cheerz

Pat

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 05:01:12 PM »
Hi Killah,
I just lost 2 matches against a work mate who has no clue about foosball. The only reason for not being able to completely destroy him was that my rollover didn't work at all. I had a ton of balls on my 3-rod, and NOT A SINGLE ONE WENT IN! Completely frustrating. When I switched from Sleeping Dragon B to a more standard grip, I was able to score 2 points or so, but I might have been just lucky.

You have to find a stance and grip that allows you to naturally hit at least 1.25 inch (32 mm) or so, to either side of your original set, or the center point of your front pin.  You should be able to hit this (which I call a POST on a Tornado) from a standstill, a rocking motion, even a hesitating rocking motion with stops and starts.

That's something I don't understand. What do you mean by "rolling the handle"? With my shot, it's only toss and spin, without any rolling in between. Or did I get that wrong?

By "rolling the handle" I do mean the torque or spinning force you transfer to the handle at the very BEGINNING of the shot.  During the "toss" or "pitch", I concentrate on accelerating the spin of the rod only for the first 45 to 50 degrees of turn, out of a total of 360 degrees.  By that point, I should have imparted enough torque on the rod to let the rod complete the spin and hit the ball, and very hard.  I do not continue accelerating the spin all the way to my right fingertips.  Trying to do this, which is what I call OVERCRANKING the shot by forcing the rod to spin ONLY as fast as one can keep applying force to the handle, is very tiring, can be wasteful, and does not make use of inertia.  An example would be continuously holding and deliberately turning a toggle light switch on or off.  Most people just push or pull the spring-loaded switch just far enough for it to snap to the other position.

The exceptions, of course, are those players with "Popeye" or huge, thick and heavy forearms, who can can keep cranking that rod consistently all the way to the fingertips.  These players BRUTE FORCE the shot, continuously and completely OVERRIDING the resistance of the rod, while at the same time having a heavy enough forearm to keep contact and control laterally at the point of contact with the handle.   By this (in a Sleeping Dragon B position) I mean the transfer of the point of contact from below the handle to the top front of the handle as the shot is fired.

Quote from: Foozkillah
After the "pitch", I found that using the rod's rotational acceleration to complete the shot, and the weight to start inertial lateral motion, was the best way for a consistent shot to just past either post.
Would you mind describing this more specifically?    cheerz    Pat 

As I'm sure a lot of players have mentioned before, the rollover's success in delivering an explosive shot, either straight in front or after moving laterally to either side, depends almost completely on the initial "pitch" or "toss" from the central starting position.  For the lateral push or pull rollover, it's a combination of "tossing" the ball laterally to either side, and also at the same time beginning the firing motion by rolling the handle to spin the rod.  As I described above, I practice torque'ing the handle for ONLY the first 1/8 turn or 45 to 50 degrees or rotation, at which point I simply concentrate on MAINTAINING the rod's spin all the way to my right fingertips.  At the same time I am concentrating on moving the rod laterally and continuously concentrating on keeping good contact between my wrist and the handle.  Because I don't have to keep cranking the handle after the initial toss, I can make sure the lateral motion doesn't go too far, and I can naturally go back to the center, or my original starting position.  This "no worry" start, relying on gravity and rotational velocity to continue and finish the firing motion, allows both the middle or shooting player figure to already be returning to the center position when it hits the ball in either a push or a pull rollover.

I started by shooting push and pull rollovers for hundreds of times, adjusting the angle of forearm with the rod to find the best combo of enough "skin" on the handle to get a good grip, after which I figured out the most consistent part of the wrist (mine was the upper part) to be in contact with the handle.  I tested different stances and how much pressure to put on the handle, right at firing time, to see which ones allowed the quickest, smoothest lateral motion of the ball.  I shot a couple more hundred shots, and, with the right wrap on the handle, I could consistently do shots from a standtill to either post, then I worked on adjusting the takeoff to make the ball go further, laterally, past the posts for deadbar push and pull rollovers.  Not that you have to shoot past the posts for a deadbar rollover all that often, but it's really useful as an "automatic" for a defender sitting just inside either post with the 2bar, because you know the goal figure behind will never go outside that post.

You must, however be able to easily hit 8-9 out of 10 shots to either post.  It's easy to quickly check if the defender is regularly leaving both posts open during whatever motion he/she is doing.  I immediately shoot the most natural of all rollovers at either post when they're both open. The easiest side would be the side defended by the 2bar, of course.  If the defender is neglecting the push post, with the 2bar just inside, that's an easy visual guide, compared to the goalkeeper side, and an easy square push or slight spray.  Same thing applies for a defender neglecting the pull side, with the 2bar inside the post.  Goalkeepers that do a vigorous shake but do not switch around, and eventually have to slow down, showing either or both posts are particular suckers for this.  But like I said, you MUST HAVE ALREADY practiced/perfected hitting either post beforehand.

Re: Rollover practice routines?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2008, 12:33:10 PM »
the best snake shooters will tell u the shot isnt as easy to master as some may think..  And if you think you have it down to a t i recommend finding someone who is known for a good snake d and shoot till ur wrist hurts.  My shot has progressed over the past year and a half ten fold.  I first started pull side..then they figured that *** out quick then to the push side...Longs are fun and are definately the home run shot.  But id say the majority of my goals are one dot pulls walking it around from far post to near and waiting for that middle....IT WILL OPEN....  Too many rollers try to go long and dead....