Topic: 2man to glancing by 5man to 3man non-stop between (ie Glancing.)

[base283]

We got called tonight for this: I shot from the back, static with one man(22), It glanced off my teamate's 5r and he caught it with his 3r.
The ball did not stop between the 2man and the 3man while glancing off the 5 row. Crap I know, but what rules apply here?
Thanks in advance.
base283.

[foozkillah]

Any shot or pass from either the goalrod or the 2bar, moving or stopped, that does not get pinned or controlled by the same side's 5bar, before being successfully caught and controlled by the same side's 3bar, is a legal pass.  Doesn't matter how many touches on the opponent's 3 or 5, either.

You say it glanced off your forward's 5bar, meaning it was never controlled (as in an instant lateral to another figure on the same 5bar, off the initial richochet) by your side's 5bar.  So it was a shot that turned into a lucky caught pass, is all.

And you also say your team got called for this?  So which idiot called this on you?  25 years I've never seen a 2 area pass requiring a live (one that isn't stopped or pinned) ball to complete a pass.  In fact, I believe the pinned 2bar to 3bar pass isn't that uncommon, especially in singles.  Sounds like the moron/s who called that on your team got the rules confused with the difference between a stopped or pinned ball pass from a single player, 2bar-to-5bar, versus from a single player, 5bar-to-3bar, when it hits or glances off the intervening opponent's player figures.  In that instance, one is legal, while the other isn't.  But both of those situations are 1 area caught passes (2bar-to-5bar and 5bar-to-3bar) which have nothing to do with your 2 area caught pass from 2bar to the 3bar.

Note* the other 2 area caught pass is from the 5bar to opponent's goal & 2bar area back to your 3bar, which is also always legal, as long as the ball wasn't controlled by your 3bar on the way into the opponent's goal & 2bar area.

[herringr1]

I disagree, by rule if the ball is static on the 2 bar or goalie rod the ball MUST hit 2 men with one second delay before the pass IF it strikes your 5 bar. If the ball is moving when the pass is attempted then it is a legal pass.

[foozkillah]

herringr1,

Interesting conclusion.  I had clearly thought that the pass must be COMPLETED to the five-bar and in obvious possession for at least a full second, ie, enough for a ref/timer to switch over the possession and reset the time to 10 seconds, or there is a visible motion continuing the pass with full control of the ball.  Didn't base283 say it glanced off his 5r?

Unless I've read something to the contrary, to be considered an illegal 1area pass (goal/two-bar to five-bar OR five-bar to three-bar)... the pass has to be completed to THAT bar, and it was never completed.  This would mean stopped at the five-bar without hitting the opponent/s' three-bar, or where an attempt to shoot the forward moving ball by the shooter/s' goal/two-bar from static position, or what is popularly called a "turbo" pickup or quickshot.

USTSA Official Rules: Passing:  http://www.recroom-products.com/usofforu.html#A21

five-bar to 3-bar
21.2a - If a pinned or stopped ball from the five-man is shot on goal, and the ball hits the shooter's three-man row, then the shot would be legal, provided the ball was not caught by the three-man.

21.2b - A caught ball is defined as a ball that is in the possession of a rod long enough for a controlled pass or shot to be attempted (examples: pick-up and quick shots).

goal or two-bar to five-bar:
21.4 - Passing from the two-man and goalie rods-rule 21.1 also applies to a pass from the two-man or goalie rod to the same team's five-man rod. However, once a ball is forwarded from either the two-man or the goalie rods, if it should strike an opposing team's player figures, that ball is no longer considered a pass but a live ball that may be legally caught by anyplayer.
21.4a - Rule 21.2a also applies here for a stopped shot from the two-man touched by the five-man.

In other words, any forward release (static or not) from either the two-man or goal rods THAT TOUCHES EITHER OF THE OPPOSING TEAM'S PLAYER FIGURES (21.4) or THE SHOOTER'S OWN FIVE-MAN PLAYER FIGURES (21.4a), WITHOUT GETTING CAUGHT, OR CONTROLLED AND SHOT BY THE FIVE-BAR, pickup style, is no longer considered a pass BUT A LIVE BALL.   A glancing ricochet from a static goal/2bar set, off the 5bar, is very very far from an attempted 5bar "turbo" pick-up or quickshot.

I can see where you think that rule 21.2a applies in that the ball WAS STOPPED at the three-bar, but that was in regards to a five-bar shot that was stopped at the three-bar, not a goal/two-bar shot snagged accidentally at the three-bar.  In other words, a static release from the five-bar that hits the next rod or figures on that rod (the three-bar) is regarded as a legal shot and a live ball, even if it nicks that next rod (the three-bar)

If what you're saying is true, then the countless times I've seen mis-hit (especially pinned and bankshot attempts in singles) or squibbed shots that somehow nicked the shooter's five-bar without touching the opponents' bars and were subsequently caught accidentally on the shooter's three-bar would have been illegal?  I kinda doubt that.  But that would certainly make an awesome test question.

Arthur, Adam, Tom?  I thought the rule on 2 area catches on the three-bar (A:goal/two-bar to three-bar OR B:five-bar to either goal/two-bar area, back to three-bar) was that they were ALL LEGAL, including from a static (stopped or pinned) release?

[herringr1]

23.3 Passing from the two-man (or three-man goalie rod) to the same teams five-man is ruled the same as 23.1 except that if the ball should strike an opposing team's player figures, the ball is no longer considered a pass but a live ball that may be legally caught by any player. The three wall violation is also not in effect.


So in the case above IT would be considered a illegal advancement.


(not trying to be a smarta$$) but, I've seen your foozkillah a lot and was wondering 1 who you are and 2 where you play.
I promote South Mississippi Foosball on netfoos.com

[foozkillah]

23.3 Passing from the two-man (or three-man goalie rod) to the same teams five-man is ruled the same as 23.1 except that if the ball should strike an opposing team's player figures, the ball is no longer considered a pass but a live ball that may be legally caught by any player. The three wall violation is also not in effect.

So in the case above IT would be considered a illegal advancement.

I see your argument, and I will clarify through Arthur Mitchell or Tom Yore, or perhaps Adam or any of the several dozen certified USTSA refs on foosballboard right now. 

In essence, what you are saying is that any shot or pass from a pinned or stopped ball from the goal and two-rod area that ONLY TOUCHES OR BOUNCES/RICOCHETS OFF any one or more of the shooter/passer's own five-bar player figures WITHOUT TOUCHING either of any of the opponent/s' three-bar or five-bar player player figures CANNOT BE LEGALLY CAUGHT by that shooter/passer's three-bar player figure.

(not trying to be a smarta$$) but, I've seen your foozkillah a lot and was wondering 1 who you are and 2 where you play.  I promote South Mississippi Foosball on netfoos.com 

South Miss?  All the power to you brah!   Your area's where Chris Cavalier and Booger Bates play, right?  I've played out of Palm Beach County, South Florida the past 20 years, although I've played from Manila, Philippines -to- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -to- Tokyo, Japan -to- Honolulu, HI, then to Glendale, CA (North LA), then to South London, UK, then alternating between Ames, IA,  and Elk Grove, IL (NW Chicago)  and Warren-Youngstown-Niles, OH.  Then off to Philadelphia, PA before ending up down here in SoFlo with some blonde bombshell looking for her biological mom.

I also played Euro during 2 years of exchange junior high in the UK and France, Germany and the Low countries.  Yeah, I get around.  Also been to the 94,95,96,97,98,99,01,02 T Worlds at Dallas and several of the Atlanta and other major opens.. (back in the good ole Tornado Tour days before ITSF).

Last time I re-certified was under Adam Z and Arthur at Mary's last Tornado-IFP US Open, in Atlanta in 2006.  We also have four or five other USTSA/USTSF certified refs in our group, after SweetDaddyD Jim Dumas established our offcial ref cert program in 2008.   I and several other fine folks try our best to help SweetDaddyD Jim promote and keep foos alive down here, after he took over from the busier and busier Mark Winker.  Down in the land of NETFOOS.

[herringr1]

no, if it touches the 5 bar it is a ILLEAGLE ADVANCEMENT. if it does not touch your 5 bar and your 3 bar catches it, it is a legal pass. It must not touch your 5 rod,

[herringr1]

Yes, I Talk with Chris  regularly. I've been running a semi pro and under tourney for about 3 months now. Last week I was able to arrange for A/B handicap draw with matching the pot payout. We have at least one tourney a night and two different tourneys on the same night 3 times a week.
check us out on netfoos under both Louisiana and Mississippi.
All this within 100 miles from farthest to farthest.

[foozkillah]

Yes, I Talk with Chris  regularly. I've been running a semi pro and under tourney for about 3 months now. Last week I was able to arrange for A/B handicap draw with matching the pot payout. We have at least one tourney a night and two different tourneys on the same night 3 times a week.
check us out on netfoos under both Louisiana and Mississippi.
All this within 100 miles from farthest to farthest.

I saw that Robert...  Picayune, Miss...  Great job on the Semi-Pro locals!  Always awesome when you put the effort and commitment towards building future foos.  Your accomplishment of convincing the venue into matching the pot has got to be one of the best conditions for attracting players, especially new ones.  Shouldn't be long before you have those twice or thrice-weekly events like Micah has out there at Two Sisters in Slidell, not to mention your Jackson and Hattiesburg contingents.

[wildcard]

no, if it touches the 5 bar it is a ILLEAGLE ADVANCEMENT. if it does not touch your 5 bar and your 3 bar catches it, it is a legal pass. It must not touch your 5 rod,

My take on this:

If it glances off a stationary 5man then continues on to either be caught by a same-team 3man or even end up as a shot on goal, then it is a legal advancement.

If the 5man moves during contact, that can be construed as control (for advancement purposes) and so would be illegal, and it doesn't matter whether it was caught as a pass on the 3man or just turbo'd onward (as a shot) from the 5man OR the 3man.

[Daniel]

I am surprized some one is still looking at the old rules the new as of (2007) are here.
http://www.table-soccer.org/rules/documents/ITSFRulesEnglish.pdf

I also copied the section on passing.

23. Passing
23.1 A ball which is advanced from a pinned or stopped position on the five-man rod cannot be directly caught on the three-man rod of the same team regardless of whether or not the ball is touched by the opposing five-rod. The ball must touch at least two player figures prior to advancing to legally be caught on the three-man rod. A pinned ball is one that is pinned to the wall or playfield.
23.1.1 A ball whose motion has clearly stopped may be legally passed if this pass is immediate. If there is any hesitation before the pass, the pass shall be declared illegal. Once a ball has clearly stopped and is not passed immediately it must then touch at least two player figures before it can be legally passed.
23.1.2 A ball that is briefly stubbed or pinched to the playing surface and immediately released forward can be legally caught on the three-man rod as long as the ball touches two men prior to advancing. However, if the ball is stubbed or pinched to the playing surface, released, and then passed by the same player figure it is illegal.
23.1.3 It is not considered an illegal pass from the five-man rod if a stopped or pinned ball deflects off the same team’s three-man rod provided it was not caught and there was no controlled advancement by the three-man rod.
23.1.4 If the ball touches the front or back of the man prior to the motion of a pass it must touch a second man before it can be legally caught on the three-rod (or five-man rod when passing from the goalie rods). However, if the ball hits the front or back of the man on the initial contact from another rod it can be legally passed with the same man.
23.2 A player cannot make the ball strike the side walls of the table (or the side strips if present) more than twice before passing or shooting from the five-man rod. Regardless of which wall the ball touches, a total of two times is all that is allowed prior to advancing the ball. If the ball goes to the wall a third time, it may not be struck again by any player figure on the passing rod.
23.2.1 Defensive trap - if an opponent's pass or shot is caught by trapping it against the side wall, that does not count as one of the two times allowed to touch the wall by the player who made the trap and is now in possession of the ball on his five-man rod.
23.2.2 Once the ball has touched the wall or side strip, it will not be counted as hitting the wall again until it has rolled off the side strip or is sufficiently maneuvered away from the wall if there is no side strip present and the ball has come to rest against the wall.
23.2.3 Following a time-out, any strike the ball makes against the wall prior to touching a second man will not be counted against the allowed two strikes.
23.3 Passing from the two-man (or three-man goalie rod) to the same teams five-man is ruled the same as 23.1 except that if the ball should strike an opposing team's player figures, the ball is no longer considered a pass but a live ball that may be legally caught by any player. The three wall violation is also not in effect.
23.4 It is legal to have just one hand on the rods when playing defense (example: right hand on defensive five-man). It is also legal to use two hands to move one rod (example: defensive five-man). Excessive switching of the hand between the handles may be judged a distraction.
23.5 Penalty for an illegal pass - if a team violates the above rule of passing; the opposing team has the option of continuing play from the current position to serve the ball.

[wildcard]

Even in revision, it still doesn't address what I said. At first read you could even infer that it was ok to slap at or redirect a stationary ball advancement as long as you didn't "directly catch it". So they aren't even prohibiting the same team 5bar from exhibiting control by striking at the ball to misdirect it as long as they don't arrest its' forward motion. Whether it be advancement from the goal area or the 5bar, It only mentions being "directly caught" by the same teams player one rod area away, but says nothing about glancing off of and continuing forward motion to be caught by or turbo'd on goal by the same teams' 3rod.

[foozkillah]

no, if it touches the 5 bar it is a ILLEAGLE ADVANCEMENT. if it does not touch your 5 bar and your 3 bar catches it, it is a legal pass. It must not touch your 5 rod,

Robert,

I was right, and Arthur said it WAS RELATED to an actual test question...:

Scenario 1: Ball is stopped on yellow goalie. Player hits the ball, touches the black 3-row, caught on the yellow 5-row.
Result: Legal

Scenario 2: Ball is stopped on yellow goalie. Player hits the ball, not touched by black 3-row, caught on the yellow 5-row.
Result: Illegal

Scenario 3: Ball is stopped on yellow goalie. Player hits the ball, not touched by black 3-row, deflects off of yellow 5-row and continues forward into goal. Yellow gets a point.
Result: Legal (This question has been on the official's exam)

Therefore
Scenario 4: Ball is stopped on yellow goalie. Player hits the ball, not touched by black 3-row, deflects off of yellow 5-row and continues forward, caught by yellow 3-row.
Result: Legal

Any situation where the forward's 5bar exhibits control, as in a caught pass at the 5bar or even a "turbo" shot would be illegal.   But, exactly as base283 described, glancing off a stopped 5bar figure (even AFTER the forward tries a forward shot with the 5bar by snapping down, as long as the turbo or other forwarding shot motion has stopped before the ball actually got there) is legal for both a scored goal, or to catch on the forward's 3bar.

As I said initially: base283, you and your team got robbed.

[wildcard]

Latest update on this from Arthur Mitchell

DRadack wrote:
If the player takes a swing at the ball with the five and misses but it nicks or deflects off of it then it becomes an illegal advance. If it deflects off a stationary one, as Arthur mentioned it is legal.

Here's one i can never remember arthur, is the bumper considered part of the rod. ie, stopped ball on yellow two rod shot, hits black 3 row bumper (or rod) and comes to a stop on yellow 5 man. Illegal advance?
To answer your question first, my recollection is that (back in the days when there were only two head officials) Adrian and I agreed that it was a legal advance, with the understanding that if anyone ever became reasonably adept at doing this intentionally, we would reverse our interpretation. Whether this changed with the implementation of the ITSF rules, I couldn't say.

As far as the "what constitutes control" question, here's my understanding of it.
1. If the ball is struck by any portion of the front of the player figure, that constitutes control.
2. If the ball deflects off the side of a stationary player figure, that does not constitute control.
3. If the ball deflects off the side of a moving player figure, it is a judgement call by the official as to whether there was control.

Control decides whether the ball striking (glancing/deflecting) off the same team's 5row from stopped/pinned 2bar or goalie3bar makes it an illegal advance.

[foozkillah]

Exactly,

And since base283 described the shot as having:

1. Glanced off the forward's 5bar, with virtually no chance to come off the front part of the 5bar player figures' toes without hitting the opponents 5bar. (becomes a live ball)
2. Is not a shanked or whiffed shot but goes directly forward to where the 3bar player figure caught it.

I can't see any ref calling the 5bar figure contact as exhibiting any control whatsoever.

That was a bad call, base283, and I hope your team didn't lose the game on account of that.  I have a suspicion that whomever called your team on that was assuming ANY CONTACT with the same team's 5bar from a static 2bar or goalkeeper shot, caught or trapped accidentally of course, by the same team's 3bar, is illegal, which more often than not is quite legal.

Especially if there was no shank or whiffed shot resulting in a slow release that the forward may have swung at or tried to control.