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Saturday Night Foosball

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Saturday Night Foosball
« on: September 30, 2011, 03:36:45 AM »
Starting this Saturday, October 1st, foosball will be on Saturday nights instead of Friday nights.

Enjoy!

www.foosball.com/alaska
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 03:38:47 AM by LahTera »

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 03:14:14 PM »
Mandy! You guys are still playing there! Glad to hear!

Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 02:58:23 AM »
Does this sound right for a pull side rollover? Slight wrist pressure down and slight pressure of wrist/hand curling on handle. When u rock or pull ball, the instant u feel air rollover?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2011, 12:27:27 PM »
Does this sound right for a pull side rollover? Slight wrist pressure down and slight pressure of wrist/hand curling on handle. When u rock or pull ball, the instant u feel air rollover?
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Sounds normal, if you use mostly the top half of the handle to lay your wrist on. If you ever used a palmroll pullside quickset "slap" shot, this would be the same.  Best for quick shots to either side without a lot of power, using the rod weight to generate force.
This is great for 3/4 slight sprays to the long, or quick "pick" shots 3/4 inches or less before too much roll makes it hard to squarely hit the ball.  But the spin ends too quickly, IMO, to generate lots of followthru.
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If you've watched a lot of the tour streaming vids, you'll see at the higher levels, the rollover shooters typically have initial wrist contact on the front or bottom side of the handle.  And they use a "pulley" style, much more mechanical release.. where they use the extra roll to generate that characteristic whipping action of the 32 or middle 3bar man.  By "pulley" or "chain and sprocket," I mean that they roll the handle a lot more than 1/3 before contact.. actually half or even more.  A topside handle wrist start, on the other hand, makes this physically impossible, unless you have an abnormally long hand and fingers, (like Terry Moore et al) and learn to touch the top handle 1-2 inches ABOVE your wrist.
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The greater handle roll of the front or bottomside rollover shooters allow them to whip the ball in a "scooping" motion, and driving through the ball for a much longer followthrough.  The "scooping" motion allows them to overwhelm most sideways motion of the pitched ball to square it off.  Of course they have to keep in mind that they mustn't continue the rollover motion upwards but almost directly backwards, acting like a chain drive on a bycicle sprocket.  This is a non problem (it's automatic, actually) for top handle snakeshooters like you described, but quite manageable anyway for the front or bottom handle rollover shooters.
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Longer contact with the handle for front and even moreso the bottom handle rollover shooters allows them to really drive the ball square on 3/4 and longer (square long or deadbar) shots, with more force and faster closing speed to a hole.  A great example would be Spredey or Papz or Rob Mares etc for extreme long and deadbar bottom handle rollovers..  Ryan and other bighanded longer-fingered shooters (Justin Smith i twink, Warren V Jr) shoot 45 deg top or completely forward on the handle, extending the roll thru the tips of their fingers.
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The bottom handle snakers typically can dribble the ball harder, stay on the shake longer, and can use extreme return motion followthroughs, which are normally impossible for most top handle snakers.
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But yours should be fine, if you have a long palm and long fingers..
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 12:35:46 PM by foozkillah »

Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 01:16:52 AM »
Thanks for the info.  I can do a fast long push side this way with Med pressure. On the handle. Its just put pressure down and go long with any kind of rock. BUT THE PULL TAKES ALIGHT PRESSURE DOWN LIGHT HAND CURL EXACT AMOUNT OF ROCK AND EXACT SWING THE INSTANT THE MAN ROCKS OFF THE BALL. The two feel like night and day is that normal?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2011, 03:43:56 AM »
Thanks for the info.  I can do a fast long push side this way with Med pressure. On the handle. Its just put pressure down and go long with any kind of rock. BUT THE PULL TAKES ALIGHT PRESSURE DOWN LIGHT HAND CURL EXACT AMOUNT OF ROCK AND EXACT SWING THE INSTANT THE MAN ROCKS OFF THE BALL. The two feel like night and day is that normal?
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Sounds pretty normal.. especially if you're pretty square to the table or just slightly tilted towards the target goal.. and you crouch down. Unlike those lucky individuals who are tall and have long limbs so they can do just more symmetric shakes with a rollover, most normal height/normal arm length shooters notice that the push side (even longs) rollover are easier to do and still hit the ball square even on a long.  As long as they keep in contact with consistent pressure on the handle.  No contortion or adjustment is necessary on the push rollover.  However.. a pullside snake feels that the rod and handle are rising, particularly on a long pull rollover, since your hand, elbow and upper arm have to GO SOMEWHERE and can't shrink telescopically.  Thus.. you have to have a lighter pressure and keep releasing pressure as you pull, to keep the rod consistently coming towards you without locking up your elbow or upper arm.
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Tall, long-armed rollover shooters have a long enough arm so their physics only need very little upper arm swing either way (feels like a normal end-to-end shake) and is enough to hit a square long on both the push AND pull sides.  Similar to a pendulum on a grandfather clock.  Shorter players (5'8 and under) , however, in a normal crouch, have to worry about the rod while shooting a pull side.  They realize they if they don't adjust, more and more weight on the handle is added the longer they go pull side, as their arm and elbow start resisting.  *Note that this is why doing a return motion on a pull side rollover (or oldschool palmroll frontpin shot) is quite natural, and can often result in overbrushing the ball back, right into the defense, or even "razoring," or accidentally chipping the ball diagonally across the goal.  Also the reason a lot of snakers can stroke a deadbar or even a "7" more easily on the pull side, but settling for a square or very slight sprayout on the push side.
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Typical adjustments for top or top/front(45deg) handle snakers are:
1. To lean away in a deeper crouch, away from the 3rod, in order to lay the arm and wrist as horizontally as possible and have a pretty neutral horizontally swinging pendulum motion for push sides or pull sides.  This is to mimic what tall, long-limbed shooters do.
2. To lift or "swing" the upperarm up, as the pullside rollover motion is started, minimizing the needed bending and contorting of the wrist and elbow.  This can be very tiring, too.
3. Finally, to have completely different handle pressure & wrist motions, for pullsides as opposed to pushside snakes, as you just described.
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Having completely different strokes for a rollover, as described, can be a disadvantage...
a. Different strokes are like different shots.. more complicated and more tiring, and take more concentration to execute.
b. Different "pitch" or starting grips take much more time to master, to warm up, and to maintain "touch" throughout even one event, let alone a whole weekend.
c. Different takeoffs and followthroughs often result in "TELLS" to sharp goalkeepers who can figure what side you're going to shoot, or at least a high enough confidence in which side you're going.
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So yes.. that sounds normal, but I'd recommend practicing adjustment 1 or 2 instead, preferably number 1.
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Or.. switch to a bottom or forward/bottom grip for rollovers, which FORCES a stroke like adjustment 1 above, but with more contact time on the handle, allowing more control on followthrough and return motion.. and much more power, too.  Although your wrist and lower forearm might turn a bit black and blue at the beginning, as you start putting pressure on the handle for longer than on a top handle start. You'll realize why bottom or forward/bottom rollover shooters prefer extra or double length wraps, or thicker ones.. to provide more cushioning..  and the stickiness or tackiness of the grips are much less important, since they shoot with their wrist and arms like a bicycle chain on a sprocket.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 04:03:18 AM by foozkillah »

Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 03:13:38 AM »
Thanks what you say is dead on.  My consistency seems to go away when I study the d, or I consintrate on execution. And have to ignore the d. This works on rookies. But good goalies. Seem to know which one I'm thinking.

Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 04:17:54 AM »
Thanks for the info I watched u tube videos w Raymond Moore. Vs tony spreadman and how they shoot rollovers. So I copied them but this time I noticed their hands shake back and fourth under the rod. I tried that and it really. Helps my rollover.   I think the hand makes a whipping. Towel effect.   Rollover whips hard fast and long to both sides now. Thanks again.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 03:17:12 PM »
Thanks for the info I watched u tube videos w Raymond Moore. Vs tony spreadman and how they shoot rollovers. So I copied them but this time I noticed their hands shake back and fourth under the rod. I tried that and it really. Helps my rollover.   I think the hand makes a whipping. Towel effect.   Rollover whips hard fast and long to both sides now. Thanks again.


Exactly.. and your towel-whipping analogy is right on the money.  One whips a towel in a straight snap, since (duh) swinging the limp towel doesn't generate any snap or stinging power, LOL!  Many rollover shooters can't figure out why they're whiffing or somehow mistiming and mis-hitting their snake... Soooo many times.. they're edgy, perhaps in an event match, or even just against a local friend/rival they want to score well on... and they start shortcutting their rollover stroke by rolling short and ripping the handle at right angles to their handle contact point, (typically upwards) instead of back, away from the goal & parallel to the floor.  Everything, the mechanics of the "pitch" or takeoff, the length of power imparted to the ball, and the timing are all changed... but often hard to breakdown and readjust in the heat of the moment.
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One common way to fix this is to adopt the widespread rollover crouch, bending one's torso away from the target goal, and making it harder to whip the hand/wrist off the handle upwards, in a shortcut or "lazy" way.

Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 02:40:54 AM »
Your comments and advice is really helping me out thanks again. Now for the five man.  Who has the most domaint five man on tour? Not necessarily a three man to match but just the most effective. Offensive. Successful one?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Saturday Night Foosball
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 06:31:58 PM »
Your comments and advice is really helping me out thanks again. Now for the five man.  Who has the most domaint five man on tour? Not necessarily a three man to match but just the most effective. Offensive. Successful one?
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NOTE THAT THIS IS MY OPINION FROM watching them this year...
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Rhetorical question?  Offensive 5bar? Defensive 5bar & zone? Which one?  Top 3 I'd say are (duhh) Frederico and Billy Pappas and Tony Spredeman, who seem to be winning the most through excellent 5bar and then execution.  AND not in that order... it's always in flux, depending on the table, of course... Spredeman has been dominating on Tornado lately, unless Billy's motivated (and actually shows up along with others like Tommy Adkisson et al) ... Rico on every other table...  but I guess you could say on Tornados it's Spredey and Rico for offensive 5 with Billy very close behind.. for defense 5bar vs 5bar... there're a lot more... like Todd and Dave Gummeson and Rob Mares and Tommy Adkisson and Tracy Mac, Bill Bell, Terry Rue and lots of retired/semi-retired masters... and they pretty much dominate all other players except those initial 3.  As for Ryan.. he's been great on both this year .. and getting better... another monster in the making...
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One thing I've really noticed is (with large part due to Spredey's rise with his machinegun topside tic tac) all the younger players are developing great tic tacs, and if they brush.. it's an add-on to their tic tac series.  The kids ain't dumb... they know how hard it took for those PM's to master their brush series... (which used to be the "God" pass)..   But developing 5bar speed and reaction with tic tacs and getting that brute speed to chase down all the old brush masters seems to be working.  If your opponents have worked through all the tic tacs.. there will always be those waiting at the top who use their brute force speed to block most of the non-perfect brush series...  When you meet them.. my observation has been that you're 2 and out. quickly.
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My recommendation is to hone your tic tac series, bottom or topside.. (near or far wall) ... make sure to add a high bounce to that series.. and add all your brush passes as an adjunct to those tic tacs... I'm of the opinion, in the Tornado world, that wall passes have been encouraged (like raising the pitcher's mound in baseball and stricter protection for receivers in football) by the design changes over the past 2 decades..  Which means even 600x rated beginners on tour with hard tic tacs incorporating "mini-pullkick" wall passes (nearside) and their mirror image on the far wall, are able to get through even PM defenses.  No hesitations needed, no multiple fakes, no wrong-step pump fakes that easily backfire if the ball's different or slick or the wall's slightly dead or the surface is different.  All timing and spin with the tictac (which you can practice till the cows are grilled) ... and it doesn't change with different table conditions, unless there's a bad pin or cracked player figure...   A little bit harder to master in the beginning, especially, to get a good tic tac.. but definitely much more reliable than having to wrong-step a good 5bar D and having to work-work-work for that angle brushdown or up.  Just get that dribble running, and watch for the wall or a lane or your bounce lane to open.. and boom! No braindrain, no guessing, no concentration wasted.
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Tic tacs today also seem to have a better chance of getting the ball back when they're blocked ... since they're lane (straight passes that a block would give right back to your player figure, vs angled brushes) the physics would seem to say good offensive 5bar tic tac'ers get the ball back a lot.  Plus a good bounce off a tic tac has got to be one of the hardest passes even great 5bar D's have to face... Ducking a bullet is hard enough... ducking a directed bullet ricochet is just that much harder.   And if they block a hard bounce-up.. it usually bounces back to the adjacent 5bar figure... There was a great thread on Phil Kennedy's foosball board, in fact, when they started publishing the percentages, including passing 5-to-3 for the superregionals and majors title matches.  Spredey's was rated at 62%, but that was counting each attempt, not possession, which he just kept getting back...  And yeah he won most of those matches.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 06:45:00 PM by foozkillah »