Topic: Bonzini ball discussion

[Alan Cribbs]

Brian

Got this quote from another board and wanted to comment.
I do not want to pollute the other board with this side issue.

By the way, did it ruin all US Bonzini play when US Bonzini players refused the new ball and told Bonzini and the ITSF to stick it where the dung beetles have their fraternity meetings? 

We did not quite phrase this issue to Bonzini or the ITSF quite like that.

Through the USTSF, we requested to extend the use of the traditional cork ball for the 2008 tour season as it was a radical change to the majority of Bonzini players. The USTSF conveyed this information to the ITSF. The ITSF Exec. Committee took our issues to vote and granted the USTSF/Bonizni U.S.A. to continue with the cork ball use for their ITSF sanctioned events. Sanctioning fees ran us about $1000.00 USD last year.

Here's where we had to make some decisions for 2009 with our 4 major player association directors.
Those 4 being, Powerkick Team (Raleigh, NC org.), Shenandoah Valley Foosball Association, SC Foosball Players Association, and Winston-Salem Foos Force.
The ITSF Bonzini ball may be changing in the near future because the present ball had divided Bonzini table loyalist because of it's performance. If people think the ITSF has disrupted the Tornado fans, then they have no idea what the ball change has done to the French Federation Babyfoot Organization.
Since we (the Bonzini U.S.A.players) are in partnership with Bonzini France, the economics of player participation in promotional events and table sells plays a part in our desicion to remain with the cork ball.
The Bonzini U.S.A. players that were fans of the ITSF Bonzini ball were typically those that had the means to travel abroad for International competition. We simply could not force the majority to switch over for the few. And fortunately the Pro ITSF Bonzini ball fans understood and supported that decision. So for 2009 we will be using the cork ball and will not request for any ITSF sanctioning through the USTSF. So in other words, the ITSF losses out on our sanctioning fees for 2009. Will it affect player participation for 2009? I do not think so, we only really had one or two ITSF point chasers attend our events last year.

I believe the ITSF asked each manufacturer to be resposible for developing a ball for each of their own tables. Bonzini did the best that they could to try to appease all nations and are now trying again to find a better solution. Bonzini still supplies us with the 17gm 35mm cork ball we have used over the past 10 years and remains a valued partner for the U.S. Bonzini players.

It just a great example of a political policy creating a speed bump for table traditionalist.
Growning pains

We're a very small foosball entity in the U.S.
If you ever make it to one of our events, first beer on me!

AC
 

[foozkillah]

Alan,

I understand I was using hyperbole, because that was in response to pro ITSF posters on here, and on the Foosballboard, implying domestic US Tornado players (represented by the USTSF chapter, of course) should just take ITSF recommendations (switch to 1goalplayer after 20+years of 3goalplayer rods) as passed along through the USTSF.  Many feel this has been "railroaded" through.

I cited your example of standing up to the new ball as not acceptable (except for International competition, of course) and your organization's willingness to become unsanctioned, albeit temporarily, for the USTSF and domestic US Tornado players.  It was with much admiration and I use it to debunk the perceived image of the USTSF that Farid and the ITSF leaderships vision for world foos was the best and ONLY vision for domestic US, Canadian, Irish, UK, Chinese, Malaysian, UAE and most Asian foos federations who sanction Tornado 3goal player tables.

As I'm sure you've read through on the Tornado/USTSF 1goal player announcement thread on FBBoard, it has brought up many questions from domestic US foosers about the suddenness of the announcement just before the World Cup, which cannot help the Tornado players.  Domestic foosers now have a feel for the angst the Euro players feel about the 13man Tornado, thanks to thebodygroove's sometimes heated posts, vs Phil Kennedy's and AmericanFoosball's critique of the ITSF charter and how they seem to be circumventing their own policies with these rule changes.. And they affected all the 5 federations, of course, including yours.  It is getting nasty, and I believe a lot of domestic US players are feeling that the USTSF could do a better job of passing through rule and equipment changes that should only affect International play.  Obviously they did not have the "nuggets" your domestic Bonzini USA players showed, in the belief that we should support Farid and the two outspoken Tornado-despisers Klaus Gottesleben and the Italian foostable CEO, in the name of International foosball.

We know the USTSF is composed of unpaid volunteers, many of whom are our friends, but the judgement on their procedures is still questioned.  I have a point-by-point response to Dave Radack's emotional defense on FBBoard, too.  Like your organization, with sponsorships, with constant support from you, for the domestic Bonzini foosers, I hope the USTSF likewise starts to turn its attention to domestic Foos, as Tornado has announced it will now do so, especially with IFP and Warrior no longer in their blindspot. 

That may not be possible, because the USTSF is a chapter of the ITSF, which really has its primary goal of promoting international and definitely Olympic foosball.  I guess one could say there is a call for a national organization with no attachments to table manufacturers, especially as exclusive sponsors, which can represent Tornado, Warrior, Bonzini, and even other brand players, no conflicts of interest by members who stand, whether well-intentioned or not, to gain from the coverage of sanctioned international play (the sooner the better, no matter the costs or sacrifices) and would have a program similar to the old TS techniques of seeding and promoting foosball and leagues cross-country.

You could say the USTSF is having to defend itself for being an apple, and not an orange.  And domestic US foosers are saying the orange is what they would like, ALONG with the apple.

[PatRyan]

Fooskillah,

For the record, the USTSF is not a chapter of the ITSF.  The USTSF is a member of the ITSF.  Just as the BonziniUSA players/promoters decided to use the cork ball and not request ITSF sanctioning, the same can be said for many other promoters in the US.  Most promoters adopted the ITSF game rules changes.  But there were many tournaments in the US that were not ITSF sanctioned.  The USTSF has but one vote among the many ITSF member nations.  Things may not always go the way the US players (and the USTSF) would like them to go.  But the decisions of the ITSF apply to ITSF tournaments.  The USTSF adopted the ITSF rules of play, but the USTSF wrote it's owns sport code, and its own administrative rules.  They are a separate entity, with their own rules of governance. 

Pat Ryan

[foozkillah]

Pat,

Thank you, I stand corrected.  My apologies...

That is great news.  Would you say, because many organizations, not all, have a highest priority aim or purpose, that the USTSF will prioritize:

1.  The advancement of foosball as a whole, including internantional & Olympic play, as the prime directive?

or

2. The advancement of foosball in North America, and/or Asia and/or South America, specifically in a national or regional context, as the primary goal?

We know that the ITSF, logically, has #1 as its major aim, and its "vision" is getting clearer all the time.  The statements ascribed to Klaus Gottesleben and others obviously are not helping the ITSF's image domestically.  His statement about saying "bye bye" to Tornado if they could not change to retain certification convinces domestic players that if the other manufacturers are more than willing to reject one of their own group, with the blackmail threat of loss of sanction and certification, how much more would these manufacturers work to use the ITSF, as the "only game in town" to shut out other tables and manufacturers?  For their own agendas, of course, which make obvious business sense.  They would gain and zealously maintain having full beta control, working knowledge, and specification control of a homogeneous "World" table design and equipment, well before any possible challengers can even hear of the certification.  Not to mention specifying features unique to other non-ITSF tables in order to prevent easy entry and competition.  You may disagree, but this is as far from an Olympic ideal as there is.

The volunteers at USTSF, of course, have put considerable time & effort into a purpose they believe in very much.  And I see how they are hurt by the sometimes personal attacks on their group and on their intentions, and the historical influence of Tornado and BVD definitely do not help them there.  This is a horribly horribly flawed arrangement with the 5 manufacturers.  These manufacturers cannot help but work for their own agendas, they have no choice as corporations.  And those agendas do not include any idea of representation of US domestic players, or Canadian or other Tornado countries. Or anything close to Olympic ideals.   So I hope you somehow find a solution around this.

There is definitely hope and there are alternatives now, of course.  Mary and Charlie and Kurt and the Bart O folks, even Alan, could ostensibly create & of course support a "North American Table Soccer Federation", recognizing Warrior, Tornado, and Bonzini and whatever else needs sanctioning.  This would definitely remove most conflicts of interest, because their livelihoods would be directly affected by how much they promote and enhance US foosball.  They would have to work for more domestic development goals, very much as the European clay court, Commonwealth grass lawn, and American hardcourt open tennis federations do.  They might share some aims and officers, but they have completely differing focuses from the different national Olympic committees which have a standardized court surface, rules, and support organizations.  FIFA and CONCACAF exist very comfortably with each other, as well. At least nowadays they do anyway, after FIFA went through something very similar to what is happening nowadays with international foosball.

Respectfully, and best wishes
Foozkillah.

[Alan Cribbs]

Brian,

Not sure an additional Association/Federation is necessary. It appears the structure of the USTSF is sound enough to meet the needs for the majority of the players in the U.S.  Bonzini U.S.A. is pretty much immune to the traditional problems that plague U.S. foosball in general. We definately do not have "promoters" in our organization, as all of our events are non-profit. We refer to our supporting player associations as "host". I am not opposed to promoters having the potential of making money off of player entry fees, it just not going to be source of income for us. We profit from table sells through our dealer network.
Your analogy of the clay, grass, and hard surface is true. Our (Bonzini U.S.A.) focus is in a little diffferent direction at this time in regards to growing awareness about the world of foosball. The ITSF and the USTSF have much more complexed issues to deal with.

AC

[PatRyan]

OK, well,  I would say that the main goals of the USTSF relate to the table soccer in the United States.  But that purposed is served many different ways.  I would say it serves the US player base when the USTSF provides resources to players/promoters within the Unites States. but it also serves the US players when the USTSF voices its opinions and votes on an international stage, through the ITSF, whose goals are on more of a global scale.

Also, to clarify, there are no manufacturer representatives on the ITSF Executive committee, nor on any ITSF committees.  The "partner manufacturers" actually pay money to be affiliated with the ITSF.  But they DO NOT have any say as to the direction the ITSF takes.


Pat Ryan

[MrBasso]

So.....when can we expect this new Bonzini ball?

Alan - when we spoke a while back you mentioned that you were involved/aware of an attempt at a plastic/composite ball for the Bonzini that was superior to the current ITSF 'B' but that the manufacturing cost was too high.  Are there any developments on that?

Also, who takes the reins on this endeavour? - a manufacturer, the ITSF, Bonzini itself?

I don't mind the new ball as it seems to last forever without damage and it does offer 'similar' characteristics to the yellow cork.  However - and that's a big 'however' - the yellow cork balls simply play better - especially with respect to control and it's not clear to me why the change was made in the first place.

I'm willing to make adjustments to whatever is eventually agreed upon and I think that the ITSF 'B' is a good first attempt but I anxiously await the next generation.   

[EDGEER]

Also, to clarify, there are no manufacturer representatives on the ITSF Executive committee, nor on any ITSF committees.  The "partner manufacturers" actually pay money to be affiliated with the ITSF.  But they DO NOT have any say as to the direction the ITSF takes.


Pat Ryan

That is not 100% true, Farid Lounas, Klaus Gottesleben and Massimo Ragona all have ties to large leagues that play on particular tables with in them.  The success of their league is directly related to the success of thier table manufacture.  So when you say that no manufacturer representatives are on the ITSF Executive committee that is not the case.  It is like Greg Ellliot and VIFA as it relates to Valley.  There are major comparisions between Elliot and those three European Musketeers or mabe I should say Stooges.

[foozkillah]

Also, to clarify, there are no manufacturer representatives on the ITSF Executive committee, nor on any ITSF committees.  The "partner manufacturers" actually pay money to be affiliated with the ITSF.  But they DO NOT have any say as to the direction the ITSF takes.   Pat Ryan

That is not 100% true, Farid Lounas, Klaus Gottesleben and Massimo Ragona all have ties to large leagues that play on particular tables with in them.  The success of their league is directly related to the success of thier table manufacture.  So when you say that no manufacturer representatives are on the ITSF Executive committee that is not the case.  It is like Greg Ellliot and VIFA as it relates to Valley.  There are major comparisions between Elliot and those three European Musketeers or mabe I should say Stooges.  ED GEER

So basically the three table manufacturers indirectly BUY, through affiliation, the positions of these three officers, including the president's.  The majority of organized play in North America is the myriad of highly independent local DYPs and BYPs with several major and regional events, all of which pay money, combining taxable professional events with other events to feed the semi-professional and higher levels.  This has to be quite a different environment and structure to the way most organized play is for those three or more European regions' huge 10-20,000+ member leagues.  There is no way these three league head officials, ITSF-certified or not, can hope to understand anything about US/North American domestic play, & any and all changes they might recommend to North American tables, equipment, or rules, are invalid and worthless, because they are by nature, not qualified in any way whatsoever!  Even for international play! Otherwise it should be called the IErTSF, or International European-style, Really! Table Soccer Federation.  As Ed noted, the title "Stooges", is quite appropriate.  And I do not blame them for their strong desire to shut out Tornado footholds in Europe.

And Alan,
Domestic US clay court events, culminating in the US Clay Court Championships is not included, or even affiliated, I believe, in the European Clay Court series culminating in the French Open Championships.  But the US events are fully sanctioned by the USTA and several other federations, including the ATP and their local chapter.  With their own events, venues, and points system.  And with no outside organization trying to change or influence them into the US Now Also Hard Court, Was Clay Court championships.  I don't see why Bonzini USA couldn't have the same voice and respect and consideration as the US Clay Court Association or Federation does within the USTA.

And as I noted earlier, a representative domestic US federation should have nothing to do, whatsoever, in directing the operations of Bonzini USA or its leagues and events.

[PatRyan]

Also, to clarify, there are no manufacturer representatives on the ITSF Executive committee, nor on any ITSF committees.  The "partner manufacturers" actually pay money to be affiliated with the ITSF.  But they DO NOT have any say as to the direction the ITSF takes.


Pat Ryan

That is not 100% true, Farid Lounas, Klaus Gottesleben and Massimo Ragona all have ties to large leagues that play on particular tables with in them.  The success of their league is directly related to the success of thier table manufacture.  So when you say that no manufacturer representatives are on the ITSF Executive committee that is not the case.  It is like Greg Ellliot and VIFA as it relates to Valley.  There are major comparisions between Elliot and those three European Musketeers or mabe I should say Stooges.

Ed,

What I stated is true.  The leagues that are played in those countries are played on a variety of tables, not just the ITSF tables(although France is largely played on Bonzini tables).  The manufactures have no say in who is on the ITSF executive committee.  The memebrs of the ITSF executive committee are voted into office by the ITSF general assembly by the ITSF member nations.  As a matter of fact, there are elections this week, at the General assembly that will be held in conjuction with the World Championships.  All of the positions are up for election, including Farid's.  And no, the table manufacturers do not get a vote, only member nations of the ITSF.

Pat Ryan

[foozkillah]

Ed,
What I stated is true.  The leagues that are played in those countries are played on a variety of tables, not just the ITSF tables(although France is largely played on Bonzini tables).  The manufactures have no say in who is on the ITSF executive committee.  The memebrs of the ITSF executive committee are voted into office by the ITSF general assembly by the ITSF member nations.  As a matter of fact, there are elections this week, at the General assembly that will be held in conjuction with the World Championships.  All of the positions are up for election, including Farid's.  And no, the table manufacturers do not get a vote, only member nations of the ITSF.  Pat Ryan

I guess we have to accept that.  Just as if Dave or Link or Bill, whether or not they were full-time employees of Valley or VIFA or Brunswick, were voted in, then they're in.  For Farid(Moe), Klaus(Larry), and Massimo(Curly), whom, if I recall or understand correctly, they really ARE the heads of their humongous leagues anyway, so you could also argue that they DO represent those majorities with no real conflicts of interest.

I guess I'm beginning to understand why US, UK, Canada, & other Tornado countries are looked down upon as the "poor cousin", or not very cooperative "co-ops".  The Euro leagues must all be going "yechhh!" in their vernaculars, and wouldn't mind if we never showed on their doorsteps.  Especially with tables that are more durable, better designed in many ways, and can outlast any of their tables by a decade or more.

Perhaps American style foosers have to do the other "thang", band together as a coalition of all these indie groups under Mary M, Eric from Canada, Charlie Mac, the Bart O, The Michigan group, The Shanghai and Tientsin feds, the Malaysian fed, Micky and his UAE group, Tony and his Argentine/SA group, etc..  And create a new federation, the ISKTSPCF, or the International Some Kinda Table Soccer - Pretty Close - Federation.  With multi-table stud Pat Ryan as president or prime minister or Chief Official Victim or something.

[foozkillah]

It is like Greg Ellliot and VIFA as it relates to Valley.  There are major comparisions between Elliot and those three European Musketeers or mabe I should say Stooges.

I can imagine the next movie:  The Foos Stooges

Farid "the Lunatique" Lounais as Moe

Klaus "the life of Jesus" Gottesleben as Larry

Massimo "massively Rogaine" Rogano as Curly

with special guest appearance by Greg Elliott as Shemp.

[Chase Pennell]

I understand that is a HUGE change! I have been playing on Bonzini some lately and really like it! I have been using the new ball and that will open more of your tournaments to me...so...i guess what i am saying is that Bonzini players may not like the change but i will sometime soon attend my first bonzini tournament

[Alan Cribbs]

Todd,

I'm schedule to go over to France at the end of May for the World Championships and at that time we will look at the new ball and test it. Bonzini, the manufacturer, is heading up this project I believe. Until we receive a polymer ball that performs as well as the current cork, there will be no changes in our current format.

The change was made to create a more consistant ball. Cork, being a natural wood product, is effected by temperature, humidity and shelve life.

It hasn't affect participation in our events. It is a distinguishable difference from hard ball play which we need to maintain.
Sometimes I think the ITSF vision and table requirements homogenizes the game of foosball. Is that good or bad however?Personally, I like the uniqueness and history of the Bonzini game as I'm sure so of my Tornado friends want to protect theirs.

Later,

AC

[thebodygroove]

Domestic foosers now have a feel for the angst the Euro players feel about the 13man Tornado, thanks to thebodygroove's sometimes heated posts, vs Phil Kennedy's and AmericanFoosball's critique of the ITSF charter and how they seem to be circumventing their own policies with these rule changes.

Whoa, being quoted here as if my misdirected jokes had anything to do with how European foosers feel about Tornado is too much of an "honour".

As far as I can judge the situation, Foosers in the old countries simply see Tornado as THE American table. There are small communities playing small Tornado events, and as you all know, some players are just fans of the table's different feel and occasionally participate in events on your continent.

What I tried to convey at the Foosballboard is the average European Non-Fooser's attitude towards the game and what he or she thinks a table should look like. To Joe Public in Europe Foosball is just toy-Soccer on a table. People who have no interest in the game whatsoever will play in a bar while waiting for a Soccer Match to be broadcasted on to the big screen "to get in the right mood". You can even buy little jerseys in the colors of popular Soccer clubs for the Foosball men. Most of these people would laugh out loud if they heared that Foosball is played as a competitive sport. And they wouldn't touch a table with 26 men on it because it would seem extremely silly to them.

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with Foosball, Tornado or the ITSF. I just wrote that to illustrate that Foosball and Soccer are still viewed as closely related by the guy on the street in Europe. And it may be the reason why some guys in the ITSF don't like 3-men-goalies. I'm not saying it should be this way or that way, I'm just trying to describe how it is, because I think it's hard to imagine for Americans how popular Soccer is in Europe, and how much it is affecting other sports.