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What is success for a goalie?

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What is success for a goalie?
« on: September 14, 2011, 09:03:21 PM »
Just curious to what you guys think. I have my own definition of what I think it is.... in my opinion there are three areas to be good in. Be good in at least two of them and you can be successful. I will explain later but what are you guys thoughts on the question?

Ice.

Offline papafoos

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 08:16:51 AM »
I think defense, rebounds, and clearing the ball are what makes a good goalie.   But once you get those down, it takes consistency to make a successful goalie...something my game has been lacking lately.
It seems the last couple of tournaments I've played in, I've had one or two matches where I just don't block worth a d*mn.  I can still shoot, rebound and clear, but the defense is just out the window.  I blame it on not playing enough but sometimes wonder if it's not age creeping up on me.  Well, maybe not "creeping up on", more like overwhelming.

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 07:05:49 PM »
No one else?....

Offline Will17

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 08:14:45 PM »
To me, when I am playing back I am focusing on a few things that I think are really important. Without stating the obvious things, here are some important points that MANY goalies don't think enough about:
- Don't give up any easy 3 bar possessions to the opposing forward (make all the grabs off the back wall, don't let the other forward pick up the ball from your own shots/passes/clears)
- Manage the pace of the game. Usually you can set the timing of your own forward by playing calm and relaxed, or if that isn't working try to pick up the pace a bit. Usually slowing it down helps most though.
- Out think the shooter. It doesn't mean making every block, but never getting scored on twice in a row helps a lot. If you can be making more blocks by the end of a game because you are dialed in mentally you will win more than you lose.
- Analyze where the ball ends up after your play. If you have a certain clear/pass/shot that your forward is getting the ball a lot because of, even if it seems random, it is a smart play. If your forward knows your options well and is good at determining when/where your shot will go, it is easier for him to grab the ball.
- Cover a good zone for your forward. I don't even have to ask which zone my FWD wants usually, I just line up the gaps in his 5 row or his zone. It isn't rocket science, and you can shut down even the best 2 bars in the world if you plug the holes.
- Play it safe - especially if your forward is hanging in on the 5 row. Get the ball out risk free, and you have done your job. I play front a lot, and my usual goalie is incredible at playing it safe. We have gone to the finals in a few open doubles state tournaments with him hardly taking a shot... just passing almost every time. When he does shoot, it is at a clutch point and he scores on most of his shots.. not because he has a great offensive two bar, but because the other team is so worried about our passes that they think passes are still coming. When I play back I shoot a lot more, but I have a lot of sliders and zone breaking shots that don't get blocked by the 5.

Even if you have a nasty fast long pull, lets say you score 25% of the time with it, but the rest of the time you are turning the ball over.. and you have a slider that clears the 5 row every time but only scores 5%. Which option do you like more? I would say that it depends on the game, sometimes your forward is struggling and you do need to take risks, but if your forward is winning the 5 row battle I would take the slider option for sure.

Always be thinking about what benefits your team the most. Sometimes (usually) it isn't too flashy, but just being a rock and getting the job done is more important than dropping bombs from the back.

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 08:32:42 PM »
Maybe you guys are all beyond me in what you are saying but then maybe not. I like what I see TMac do as I find it works for me too. I like to break it down in needed movement from a comfortable set. By dividing the goal area into 3rds and then moving the men so as to take away the tweeners a certain percentage of the time and then play with the percentages while throwing  in a few surprising variables, it's not too hard to play within those parameters. I think a lot of it comes down to game playing, cerebral game playing,, :o

Offline foozkillah

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 11:28:50 PM »
There could be a whole host of ways to consider success for a goalie.. depending if you tour or just play locals or just play at home with friends and Family, and everywhere in between.
;
One easy indicator is to: more often than not, block shots, clear and score from goal well enough so your forward (which could be yourself in singles, of course) can score faster, score first, and keep your team (or you) ahead. Over 50% with this (not including come-from-behind, slop wins, and games against abject beginners) and you would be successful.  Throwing in points from back, one or more, are of course helpful as a goalkeeper (the word GOALIE IS A STRICTLY HOCKEY TERM to me...) but not necessary.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 12:03:58 AM »
here is what I share with beginners....this is what I call Goalie 101....there is lots to learn on 3 bar defense but there are basics that I am WAY more concerned with while we tackle basic goalie work

These are in priority order
1.   Stop Slop – Foosball Goalie Play 101, stop slop…it is much harder than it sounds but the value of stopping slop can not be overestimated.

2.   Trap Balls that enter your area - every ball that enters your area and you do not let go back out is a possession for your team and of course limits a possession for the other team...it is a game of possessions

3.   Clear the 5 bar...prefer ball is on goal but that is secondary – clear the 5 and good things will happen...NEVER worry about scoring, if you clear the 5, you will provide possession opportunities for your team and eventually you will score but don't think about scoring, it isn't your responsibility, it will come in time...you keep clearing the 5 and in time, the other team will make a mistake because sooner or later, they will be out of position. 
Still, not important to score, if it comes, it is pure gravy.
Most important clear the 3, then learn to clear the 5, then learn to put the ball on goal, then learn to hit specific places on goal, then learn to set up specific shots, and last score.

4.   Zone Defense – Based on Fooser’s Rules, “zones to percentages to tendencies to specifics” this is a progression both in what to learn first as you learn the game but also this is how to approach a shooter you have never faced - you start with zones and move to percentages, etc - each as you can.  Zones are the first way to make the goal as small for you to block as possible.
a.   Have a zone with your forward against opposing goalie
b.   Make the opposing forward hit perfect shots
c.   Learn their strength and take that away by being in that hole/lane at least 80% of the time
d.   Get in their head, be unpredictable - Change timing, position, etc so you can not be read
e.   Adjust if you are getting torched - you will rarely shut people down, if it happens all the better but I do not expect that, I expect you to play smart and try and get in the other person head and if they start to get the better of you, then you adjust - keep them thinking, it will impact their shot

5.   Alert Play - play every possession when the opponent has the ball on their 5 bar and 3 bar like they are going to do something tricky because they will, it’s just a matter of time.  Don’t fall into patterns when they are setting up because good ones will log that pattern for future reference and pull it out when it can really hurt you, stay one step ahead.

6.   TimeOuts - primarily should be managed by your forward for game tempo, strategy, etc but, it is your team too and you should call timeouts too:
a.   Use timeouts to communicate with your partner (this goes both ways)
b.   When you miss-execute a shot but retain possession call a time out…EVERY time, no exception - Todd Loffredo does this EVERY time...I have learned the hard way, nothing good ever comes of trying to continue after a whiff – hate to use a time out but in the end, it is well spent
c.   When you are nervous and need to collect your thoughts
d.   When you think your forward or team needs a time out.  And if the forward has possession and you think the team (you or your forward) need a timeout, make it clear to the forward you want them to call the timeout

7.   Forward Spot  –   “Spot” for your forward - watch 5 bar and 3 bar defenses and let fwd know if you see tendencies, patterns, obvious holes, etc.  An aside, forward should spot for the goalie and tell goalie 5 bar tendencies and other defensive patterns or opportunities, etc.

8.   Tempo Manager - the goalie has a big opportunity to speed up or slow down the tempo of the game...use this to manage game tempo so it serves your team.  You need to be in sync with your forward.  You have 15 seconds when you have possession, use it to your advantage from 1 second to a full 14.9. 

9.   Encourage/challenge your forward – build team, learn how your forward is motivated, is it a pat on the back, a yea man, or a challenge like at a time out on a big point your forward has the ball and you say “You gonna lay down on this or are you going to step up and hit this one out of the park?”  This wouldn’t work for everyone but that’s why you need to get to know your forward.  The goalie can do so much to manage the spirit of the team. 

10.   Scout Opponents - Watch each team before you play – proactively watch the bracket and watch potential upcoming players and take notes (mental or actual) for tendencies – watch for the team.

Oh yea, and it wouldn’t hurt to learn some defense against the 3 rod too.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 12:14:36 AM »
here is one of the best things I have ever read on the overall responsibility of the goalie and its influenced me obviously as you see my list but Phillip says so much more

I have some good stuff by a guy they call the Ice Man but I wouldn't want to mess up anyone's plan


What it takes to be a Goalie!

Phillip Gootee from SPAM FILTER thread
March 16, 2006

There is too much here to blister my digits typing until I get carpal tunnel. So, read it and reflect on the above postings, as I can not answer them all.  Some are funny, some are ignorant, and general truths are found in amongst the words of B*ll Sh*t slingers or thinkers. What are you thinking making your primary position a Net-minder?

Everyone starts off a back player, simply too much five bar time is needed before a forward’s game can hold it’s own in doubles. So, what if you perused that coarse. Do you want to be a Fooser who plays backs, or do you want to become a Goalie, better think about it. Are you sure, because it's pretty easy to be the guy pulling over points, while your thinking about your aching back and wishing your forward would hurry up and win, that way you could grab a BAD WORD FILTERtail, a snack, and nap before your next match. But a Goalie, I mean a honest to God, committed to the position Goalie, those guys are a different breed of cat, and should be committed. The dedication to becoming a Top Goalie, a Master Goalie, that tag exacts a price.

Consider this path carefully, only a rare or few Singles title(s) will ever be yours in the upper classes, and no Mixed titles. To advance in class you must get all your points in Doubles, and a poor finish in Singles often negates these points. It takes years or decades to move up at the top level, and when you do turn pro, you will only get your points from one Doubles event (Open) tournaments are a lot less fun when you go out early. So you better learn to D-up strong, and get your forward the ball. It's a tough road to hoe, and even being one of the top goalies won't allow you to automatically play with the elite top forwards (a la Gummy, Rico, Terry, Etc). They may respect your game skills, but without those points, they'll be giving up the seeding advantage, and the other elite contenders love any extra advantage. So, you'll have to win dozens of regional events to get to the top. But if over time, the millions of mistakes and errors that cost your team dearly, will painfully teach you the art of being a Goalie.

It is not and never will be the glory position; your job is to make your forward’s job easier. Make them, and thus the team, look great. I love to vaporize an ear shattering 2-rod match winner, as much as the next guy does. But If you never have to score a shot in the tournament, and there are mumbles about how your forward did it all, and made it look easy, you must have played f*cking great! The axiom – The loss is always the Goalies fault, and the victories belong to the forward, is generally true. But any veteran player with a brain knows who the anchor is on any given match.

It doesn’t matter (they are just forwards) and you have to do what it take to LEAD your team to victory. Yes, I said LEAD your team. The forward is the talent and, you must get that talent to shine. If they’re in the zone, kick the ball down the side, watch the show, and slide the points. Simple! Now, if that’s not the case, how simple or complex it is to get them playing well depends on your forward’s abilities, mental toughness, confidence level, your opponents strengths and weaknesses, table conditions, etc, etc. It’s your job to stay in the match until they figure out what adjustments must be made, start executing, or get motivated. You can help them by:
 

1. Keeping the crap out of the net – SLOP POINTS ARE TITLE KILLERS!

2. If the ball enters your area, IT DOES NOT LEAVE, without your controlled planned release. Or you dig a piece of the ball preventing your opponent a clean chance at control as it escapes your zone.

3. Once you control the ball, your EXICUTED play on the ball MUST clear your opponents 3-rod.

4. Block, and adjust as necessary. If your opponent is in the zone, and your getting torched. ADJUST YOUR D! The worst thing that can happen is you continue to get torched. At the very leased, you MUST get a percentage.

5. Communicate with your partner, If you need to Shut the F*ck up, and let them work it out then, zip it! If you need to tell your partner to Listen the F*ck up, because they’re being F*cking retarded. Then do so (In a supportive team manor, if possible) i.e. I’m going to brush the lane, that’s what he’s leaving, and that’s what’s open, look to pick up the ball there. Or I’m going to pound it through the zone on net, look to pick up the ball off the goalie’s men. In short get on the same page and play as a team.

6. Sign the match card or let your forward do it, what ever they want.

7. Listen for your match and expect your forward to do so as well.

8. Communicate with your partner, as to your whereabouts if you’re leaving the tournament room (Forwards or Goalies). Don’t make your partner hunt for you, lie, stall, and fake a heart attack, so you can get to the table.

9. Score, Pass, and Clear when appropriate throughout the match.

10.Make sure they get your name spelled correctly on your jacket. (Yes double check for your Pre-Madonna partner, after all there only a forward, and can’t be expected to over think things.)

When you achieve your veteran Goalie status, through many tournament titles, heartbreaking defeats, glorious victories, and have been forged into the flawless defender, with a 2 bar cannon, that was deep inside you. Your journey has just begun.

Your tenacious never give in partner, that has fought with you back to back, through many a Foos-war, has plateu'd or can’t rise his game to the next level. Eventually, you know in your heart, the team can not win with that level of play form the front rods, in any event of size. Goalies hate to lose, and now you are going to shoot for 5th for the sake of loyalty to your friend, and the team. Or do you take one of the quietly offered partnerships, from the selection of the phenomenal players noticing you’re the type of Goalie that wins championships. Ouch! If you want to be a Goalie, it’s a rocky road to the top of the mountain my friend. Nope, no ego coddled; glitzy it’s never my fault forward fun feast, if you chose this path.

All this typing is giving me a pinkie blister, So I’m about done here. Think about what your goals are, and what you want out of the game. The know price for the prize you seek. It’s commitment, family time, money, and the other adventures and interests that will be forgone if you choose the Goalies path. You don't have to pay the full price in a lump sum, but the more you pay, the faster your goals may be reached. The less you pay, the longer it may take. And some times Father-time forecloses, or fate intervenes before you can take possession of your prize (or curse if you will), not playing, but BEING A GOALIE!

So, know the score, that’s the way it is! If you want to be a Goalie, get tuff, get mean, and get serious about it. Or start working on your 5-bar, your shot, and your Pre-Madonna it’s not my fault whining.

Me, I traded the center ring 0and spotlight on the glory rods, for a torturous crusade of never ending, iron willed Foos-wars, tournament after tournament. You know the kind of match, which decimates both teams to the point, where even the victor can no longer win the event. That’s what hardens you, eventually this continual pain and blistering heat twists into your ruthless ally, and you discover,…… It is Goalie blood running through your veins! Or your bones are crushed into dust and scattered across the unending desert of broken Foos dreams.

follow up by Goot on the goalie being a pysco-analyst

analyze and provide the necessary components for your forward to construct victory. Spotting the weakness in the D can break a match open. You get to relax and watch the defender throughout your forward’s possession. Usually tendencies or a pattern can be detected and exploited. I typically don't bug my forward with what to shot, he's got plenty to deal with, and I don't want to get in his head. That said slipping him a "Ace" or two (an easy read or consistent weakness I notice in the Defense) can make all the difference, especially if the Goalie has to change up their D, suddenly your forward is on a roll and it's over. One of the best times to discuss this is during a time out or between games. Typically it goes something like this “Dude your working him good, if you want checkout the quick set straight, cause it looks like he’s baiting you while your setting up and not one the ball until you sit down to shot. Just check it out a couple of time and use it when you want it.” OR “Hey thanks for giving me the extra work, you know how much I love to block this guy. But sooner or later he will slop on in, so SHOOT THE GAPING MIDDLE AND PUT THIS THING AWAY, OR GET IN BACK OF THE BUS AND I’LL DRIVE IT HOME.” Depending on what the situation calls for.

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 06:20:42 PM »
I don't really go on this forum much, but, I'll put down my first post.

Success for me as a goalie is if I can get my forward to be comfortable/confident/whatever enough that he/she can just go ahead and play their game.

Being a good goalie means that you know how to block, score, clear, pass, keep slop in the zone,  adjust the pace of the game when needed, adjust during the game, and a whole slew of other things as well, but; that to me is not being a success. If my forward can play their game, remain comfortable because of my play, and that they are not under a pressure that affects their game negatively, or their head space, or focus, then I feel that is being a success as a goalie.

You are not always going to win, but if both players are able to play to the best of their ability, then you have the best chance.

Just my thoughts.

peace,

-Jeff Allen

Offline papafoos

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 09:05:15 AM »
Why hasn't John Gilliland commented?  I always considered him a thinking man's goalie.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 01:09:58 AM »
.....
;
You are not always going to win, but if both players are able to play to the best of their ability, then you have the best chance.
Just my thoughts.
peace,
-Jeff Allen
;
Those are some EXCELLENT thoughts Jeff! 
;
You could add a bit to the statement though....
"You are not always going to win, but if both players are able to play AND HACK to the best of their ability, then you have the best chance. "
;
Nowwww yer cookin' !!!
;

 ;D ;D :D :D

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 12:38:32 PM »
Winning the goalie war event at a WCS  8)

Bitching appart, much good sense in the posts above !

Offline GeneT

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2011, 09:08:20 AM »
Well if your forward is as good as he tells you he is, then all you need is 2 blocks a game and you should win the match.

As a goalie, I try to do a few things:

Keep the slop out. This helps alot.

If it comes into my area, i try and snag it. This also helps alot.

Do not under any circumstance give the ball up to the opponents 3 rod.  This can be a game killer.

Get off an impressive pass during the game,  this will open up your shots on goal, plus your forward will worry less about what you are doing and concentrate on his game.

You may not block all the forwards shots, but you can not let him score his favorite shot. You will have to be able to adjust defense constantly.

If you can atleast clear the 5 rod everytime, then it makes the game more between you, your forward and the other teams goalie.  I like it when the other teams forward is just standing there watching the ball go back and forth.   :)

Offline bbtuna

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Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 11:23:01 AM »
okay, I noticed right after my postings that I really didn't answer Gitabloks original question...I was talking about what behavior leads to success but the question is...What defines success for a goalie? This is to me is a much much harder question...

I don't feel I have a good answer but I have tired to think about what makes me feel sucessful when I play goalie

1.  Clear the ball at 90% or higher with no turnover to 3 bar
2.  Trap 100% of balls
3.  Block at 70% or higher - I know I am doing my part if I am doing 50% but I am not happy unless it is higher

bbt

Re: What is success for a goalie?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2011, 08:18:17 PM »
Has noone commented on passing? Getting your forward extra 3bar possessions is essential, especially since it then opens up shooting lanes. I heard people commenting on how clearing the ball past opponents' 3s or 5s is important, but equally important is doing so in a manner that the forward is capable on catching those balls either straight up or off the back wall.

Edit: 1 or 2 comments were made on passing, my mistake.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 06:08:05 PM by SilentSam »