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More skill on TS or Tornado

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Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2008, 08:14:14 PM »
OM,

i get it - we will just have to agree to disagree...I don't think being able to shoot more shots in competive play makes a person more knowledgable or skilled

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 09:25:19 AM »
First off the goalie had better be because he's going to have shots coming at him from lot's of different directions so he better be well versed in blocking those different shots. And then the front man has so many ways to attack a defense with  much higher percentage shots. The game becomes multidimensional not so one dimensional. We've argued about the 3 men on the goalie rod, on Tornados the wing men up front are only used for catching the ball and passing to the center man other than defense. At the top only one man is used for offense, the center man up front.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 01:40:38 PM »
first off, in those days it was 80% pulls and maybe 10% pushkick, 5% pullkick, and 5% other (backpin or whatever) at highest level of tournament play ... just because things could be done doesn't mean they were

today it is 70% rollover, 20% pull, 5% other (this would include Fred's Euro Pin)...so tournament shots are now broken into 3 main groups instead of 4...the players of yesterday didn't have to face the rollover or the walking rollover or Fred's Eruo Pin and they played on a table where the goal was much smaller...I think it is much harder to play great defense against a rollover than pushkick (assuming the defender is familiar with both)...and most pushkicks (not all, most) pushkicks could be raced...so it could be argued that today's goalies face a more difficult challenge than the past goalies

the goalie today has to know how to deal with the wing men on the goalie rod and all the pros and cons that they bring and the player of yesterday never even dreamed of this

and even if I granted your premise that TS goalies had to employ more stuff, this doesn't mean they knew more or were more highly skilled, it only means they dealt with things most players don't deal with today, but as I started to illustrate above, the same could be said of today's players verses TS players

Today's top players have to deal with and "know" tons of things TS players never had to deal with and the reverse could be said of the TS players...all of today's top players (and those coming up behind them) are all second generation players who have been playing since they were very young...by the time these people are 18 they have played longer than the TS tour existed and the knowledge built by the previous generation and years and years of tournament experience give them insights and knowledge TS players could only dream of

I am not saying I think today's players at their best are better than TS players at their best, I am just trying to illustrate that the entire argument about one table from an entirely different generation producing better skilled or more knowledgeable players is erroneous

What you can say without argument is that the build design of the TS table allowed for angles and banks being done consistently which created dynamics we don’t see in today’s game…that’s it

Now, I want to see Tornado (or some other table) redesigned to allow for banks and angles without taking away the current strengths of the Tornado table but that in no way is an argument that tables that allow those things produce more knowledgeable or more skilled players

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 02:31:15 PM »
if they modified the table to allow banks youd see more banks, if they made aerials legal youd see aerials..but im with b on this the top players would still shoot pull shots and would still shoot snake shots....at the local and smaller tourneys youd see more diversity, at the big ones snakes and pulls...and a europin...lol.....i hope they do make the table mods. so all the ts players can shoottheir bread and butter shots....because id learn them too and shoot them when im playing for sh**s and giggles.  Not to disrespect any old timers but I cant think of a major sport today that skill wise isnt far more advanced than 20-30 years ago...And the old pros in those sports will tell u the same....Its the evolution of the game...which unfrortunately to many of you, means evolution of the equipment and whether your willing to change with it and accept it is up to you.....

That cracking noise i hear is the opening of a can of worms....that breathe fire...lol

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2008, 07:55:47 PM »
Lol, worms were always good for fishing and (trolling). The limited area of effective play is just that, limited. No need to go further because the table limits what works. THAT doesn't make those that play within those limits MORE skilled. Just more skilled on that table. So i guess we can argue apples and oranges all day long. I think if the changes that Ed is talking about come into play this discussion will have alot more merit. When elements are added in to the effective play then you will see how diversity in the game is a good thing and DOES add to the skill level.

Offline Rios

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 03:32:45 AM »
I dont really know cause I have never seen any of the great old TS players... but who has the better 5 bar???
Today's players or the older TS players? Again I dont know, but from what I have heard... todays players 5bars would crush the old schools 5bars...

The main fact about foosball is... that if you have a better 5bar, the majority of the time you are going to win.... just law of averages... you get the ball more=you shoot more=you score more...

Has any of the old TS players ever seen anyone far-side tic-tac like Tony, or stick pass like Billy, or brush like Fredrico???

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 07:57:00 AM »
Granted, the flat sides of the Tornado men make it easy to tic tac. But to answer your question, yes, those passes were used although they weren't as easy to do on TS tables so you might not  keep tic tac-ing as  it was risky. These passing skills didn't originate on Tornados, trust me.

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 10:01:42 AM »
by FAR leaps and bounds the ,ost difficult thing to learn and master is the 5 bar.....i got a pretty damn good shot pretty fast but could never get it up front to shoot....for the last year all ive worked is my five bar and it takes so much time and patience....but its coming around.....I think the table type has an effect on the types of passes....cant offer any opinion on how they passed then compared to now....never saw then....

OM i really hope they can find a way to modifiy the men to open up the game..but I also hope the mods dont completely close down other aspects that make Tornado Table soccer so damn fun....

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 11:08:42 AM »
Todd Loffredo has lived through all eras and seen at the top level 5 bars...he says the defense now is better...he said when he started his 5 bar was unique but that they have become more complicated (as a whole) which, by extension, is why defenses have had to improve over the years

with that said, there were far wall passers in TS days so that didn't originate with Tony...I saw Tom Spear in those days, widley considered one of the best 5's of all time, but don't remember what his 5 was like but then I got to see some video of his 5 in early 90s - he had a very unique very smooth 5 bar and he could (and did) move from far wall to near wall and was just as effective on either wall

Todd was never known for having a killer 5 but it is still good and he can usually get the ball when he wants to...Jeep was just getting started at getting real good at the tail end of TS but started early on TS and wound up with one of the top all time 5 bars (also a far wall)

and then there was Johnny Horton another cross-over every table guy who has always had a very unique 5 bar

even if TS would have allowed you to tick tak better I don't think top players in those days would have used tick tak because they were playing a style which tried to maximise execution especially in high pressure situtations

I think the 5 bars today are generally more complicated offensively but I am not convinced they are more effective...I think if we could take the best 5 bars on TS at their peak and drop them into the mix on Tornado (assuming they had time to get used to the table differences) I am sure they would still tear people up...I am not as certain the other way around because I don't think Tony and Billy could use their current primary passing style on TS so they would have to learn something new...that said, I think they are good enough that if they really wanted to, they could learn a new way

Fred is a freak and can already do anything on any table and would make the transition instantly and would be just as effective as he is today - I mean, he already plays on TS like tables and wins everything everytime - he is Fredfreako

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2008, 03:47:33 PM »
This is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth. The reason there were so many shots back in the day is because foosball was in it's infancy. People did not have a map to follow. People would come from out of nowhere and win open doubles, or open singles and noone even knew who they were. That never happens anymore. The pull shot was met with the same kind of skeptisism and ridicule as the snake because it was a more consistant shot. THE GAME HAS EVOLVED! If people were still playing on TS tables the pull and snake would still be the most shot shots today. Consistancy is what wins period! There is nothing wrong with kicks, or back pins, or any other shot, except that they dont score a high enough percentage to compete, never have, never will. I know im gonna have people disagree with that statement, but if you add up all the shots that have won just majors, it is greatly against shots other than pullshot, or a front pin even from the ts days. Not to mention you also have to be able to shoot a shot that will allow you to be able to make it till the 3rd, 4th, or 5th day of a tournament. The only thing that is even a plausable argument is the bankshot from goal, and it can be done on a tornado table, but the extra men in goal do get in the way on blocking it. Defenses today are better, and fiverow offences, and defenses are definately better. The overall level of play has definately improved over the past 15 years, so I'm sure it has improved over the past 30. The Dynamo table banked just fine, and you could shoot multiple shots on it, and it became a primary pullshot table because people wanted to win so they went with consistancy. The one man goal is a bad design because of being able to use the back wall for rebound passes. the game will get more offensive without the wing men. Players are definately not ready for YET ANOTHER TABLE REDESIGN.

Scott Liley

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2008, 05:57:02 PM »
Scott,

good to see you on the board...good post...I would disagree on the Dynamo banks from goal thing...there are a number of plausable reasons people moved to the pull having nothing to do with how "consistant" they were...you said you can shoot a bank on Tornado but not consistantly which is true and which is the reason people don't shoot them like they did in the TS days because on TS you could count on the bank going where you wanted every time  you shot it...

you could get consistent angles on Dynamo but the rods were light and flexed enough that the ball jumped much more on that table than it ever did on TS...also, there was a stigma among some players that banks were bad and/or stupid...as a whole that was not true on TS but it clearly was true on Dynamo

alter Tornado enough to do banks consistently/accurately and it will only be a matter of time before they become a normal part of the game

you say players aren't for "YET ANOTHER TABLE REDESIGN"  what redesign are you talking about?  Are you referring to Tornado's constant tinkering and manufacturing cost saving ideas?  I don't see any true "redesign" since the brown marble...each table plays a little differently but I think that is more because Tornado has been trying to save money and because they don't have good control over manufacturing

it would be great to get a manufacture who could spend some real RD on table design, physics, engineering and build a cost no object table which could become the model where the players table is created from...trickle down like is down in high-end audio

anyway, good to have on the board, I know there are a number of players on here who could really benefit from your knowledge and skill

bbt
charles

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2008, 06:20:59 PM »
Consistancy has everything to do with the way the game has evolved. Players are not going to go into a big tournament shooting a shot that scores 60% if they can shoot something else that scores 80% unless they don't care about winning. The bottom line is tournament play is about consistancy and exacution, and not about being able to hit 15 different shots that dont score a high percentage. It doesnt matter how many shots you have if your opponent scores 5 first every game.
The bank shot doesn't hop because of the lighter rods. I've heard its the ball, the side strip, foot of the man etc... I believe alot has to do with the hard table surface. Just like in pool, a good table with 2 1/2 slate you hit down on the qball to do a jump shot, the harder the surface the easier it bounces. The tornado table hits down on the ball causing it to bounce. The good banking tables today have weak tops that you can actually push down, like the Bonzini, it has like a lenoleum surface. Why was the bankshot frowned on during dynamo?

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2008, 09:23:56 PM »
why is was the bank shot frowned on?  well, same reason a lot of people today don't like them...it is a cultural thing...a group of people decide it is stupid, hacking, not real foosball and it spreads...just like many people used to feel about shooting from the 5 bar...people actually got in fights thinking it was cheating and bush league

people feel the same way about the bank shot even today

i think the point of the original post wasn't about individuals shooting all kinds of shots during a game but that there was more variety in the field...there were top players who shot pushkicks, pullkicks, pulls, and I hear in the early 80's some backpins...i don't agree with the arguement I am just saying...the idea of finding a high percentage shot and pass were born in the early part of the game

the players back then swore by that and I had it drilled into me...the players could all do everything if they were goofing around (just like today) but when it came to serious tournament foos, there was no goofing around...you stuck with the basics, cut down on variables and potential for error...you wanted to do the simplist best executed things (smartly of course) especially the greater the pressure got

most TS players would have considered (at least the ones I hung out with) a 5 bar shot a waste of possesion because the percentages were too low and it was thought of as a sort of desperation hack shot done by those who didn't know anything

I know there are a number of dynamics that go into why the ball lifts frequently on the Tornado but the strip is definately a big part of it...all you need to do is bounce the ball off the wall and watch how it jumps up off the table surface and then back back down again...do it with the near man 3 rod and just dribble the ball off the wall and see how it jumps and how much more it jumps the harder you hit it...i am not saying removing it would fix the issue, there are more things working but it is a big part

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2008, 12:14:28 AM »
Rios.   When I first read your post I dissagreed with you, then I reread it and realized you admit that you dont know. Let me say this. I have played with the "old school" greats and against most of the "best" of today. Its not the table that we should consider, its the player himself. New age players think that in the old days they played with lopsided rocks for balls but I tend to lean that the old school "greats " had better five-man. On that table one could do more options and Yes old school players have seen the tic-tac.   lol    we invented it! and the lane stick, and every pass you see today. If there is such a gap between old school and New age, then why are there still alot of oldschoolers still competing, if you think about that , it doesnt say too much for New age.  lol. I played back then and I have a better five-man than 90% of todays pro masters. Heres another thing to consider how often do todays players actually practice?  Long ago when there was alot of money in this game we practiced and worked on our games constantly. I dont care what kind of table we play on I will still rise to the top level because of my skills......

Offline Rios

Re: More skill on TS or Tornado
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 03:41:27 AM »
I believe that you probably know more about the 5bar talent from the old schoolers... just merely cause I never got to see the best of the best.  But you say that there are alot of "old schoolers" competing... well... how many of them are in the top 10 in the world that still play front? I honestly dont know who all came up with what table... I know obviously that Loffredo was there with TS, but he is primarily a back guy. Was Dave G.? Horton obviously was, but then again, he is not anywhere near the top 10. I am not sure about Terry Moore, I thought he came around with the Dynamo. Tracy M.???  Again I am not 100% sure, but how many of the top 10 or top 25 in the world are from the old TS days???
I totally agree with you that yesterdays players probably practice more than today's just merely due to the fact that there was so much more money in the game back then.
The fact is, it is impossible to determine which players were better. Which players would have been able to adjust to each others tables better... it is all just opinion. I really wish I could have seen the old schoolers play just to see what their styles were...
I am not trying to take anything away from the old schoolers. Just merely curious...