Topic: More skill on TS or Tornado

[Old Meister]

This has been brewing for a while. I think TS fostered the need for more skill than Tornados. Tornados seem to have a lessor parameter than the wide open game offered by TS. Ok, give it to me,,,

[bbtuna]

it depends on what you mean by "more skill" if you mean banks and angles then obviously the TS wins...if you mean development of over all foosball skills I don't think you can make the arguement

i will say that the TS was harder to play on in some ways...balls would stay true round and the table surfaces were not always totally level and since the men were connected by screws and bolts you had men getting loose more often and last the men were not balance so it was a trick to get a man to stay in the air

because of this, it made the table hard to play on and thus moving to other tables made for an easier adjustment...i remember the first time my foosbuds and I played on Dynamo, we were amazed at how well built it was, how good the balls were, and how level the table was

but, I think to make the arguement that a person can get better "skills" TS, Tornado, Bonzini, Garlando, Tech Ball, shows a lack of understanding of the overall game of foosball

Fredrico is the best player ever and he got there playing on every table and now dominates on every table and has for over 10 years

i think it is easy to make an arguement about which table is has the best build quality but the rest is very subjective...great players have emerged from every table...

every table has its own unique strengths and limitations the game is changing with the advent of the ITSF and a good player is being defined by a player that can dominate on every kind of table they step up to

the day of staying true to one table are starting to crumble and I for one am glad...I loved my days on TS but I really apprecaite Tornado too for many different reasons...I would love to have access to Bonzini and the others to help strengthen, challenge, and eventually define my game

Fred is the prototype now and he is the man of all tables...I for one won't be cornered into taking sides for any table but I will take sides on quality and standards but that is a post for another day

rock on Tornado, TS, Techball, Bonzini, Garlando, Roberto, Rossengart, Leonhart, Dynamo, and every other talbe that players all around the world adopt

[Old Meister]

I knew I could draw you in on this BBtuna. Look at what the play is, snake and pull, period! I hear complaints about Tornados all the time, I didn't ever hear it about TS tables unless it was about the changes in configuration. The play was consistent what ever the configuration was for that configuration.  How much of the TS tours are you familiar with? Regardless, the game was wide open. You didn't copy 4 or 5 top players, you did your thing.

[marty]

well put om snake and pull period thats all ya see from the vidios of the top pros what do's amaze me of todays play is the five row passing was it like that on ts back in the day i played ts but from a little town  in montana it was never that good but never seen any top pros back then but boy the range of shots ya had was a lot more on ts for me anyway

[Smyler Grogan]

Which player would adapt easier?

A-player plays on the Toronado table ten years and then has to adapt to the TS table. Would he stay at the same level or regress, or be much better?

B-player plays on the TS table ten years and then has to adapt to the Toronado table. Would he stay at the same level or regress, or be much better?

[marty]

I would say player B, a tornado coin opp to me is the better table then the brown top ts, todays ts are a joke ( BLACK TOP ) not a fan of the three man goalie and if they would just get rid of that side strip that runs down the side i think it would bring back the bank shot on tornado
to me there was a lot less slop on ts do to single man goalie and not the speed ya see on tornado,all that said i love my tornado

[EDGEER]

Hopefully the man modifications in addition to the new ball and table modifications that Tornado is planning on releasing after the HOF Classic in Vegas will bring back some of the old-timer shots lost over the years.   The single biggest reason banks aren't as easy on Tornado is the weight of the rod.  Tornado is so much faster than TS its not even close.  The new ball I have been testing is a shade heavier or denser.  It also does not seem to be as hard.  It may very well be the ticket if it doesn't slow down a pull or push to much.

Oh yah player b will and has been more successful.  I think Lott, Simon, Furry, Murray, Head, Bowers, Lofredo, Bacon and many others have already proven that theory. They all were champions on TS and moved to Tornado and won there as well.

[bbtuna]

OM, you are right, I will bite anytime someone says something crazy

you started your thread with which table would create more "skill"...I said it depended on how you define "skill"  -  apparently you define it as the table which creates the largest variety of shots

during TS days there was a wider variety of shots on the 3 bar and certainly banks from goal added an exciting dynamic to the game (that I for one miss badly)

but that wasn't your question...you didn't say, which table allowed for and/or promoted the most variety of shots in tournament play...obviously, TS in its hey day is the answer to that question

but if you have ever seen the things that Billy Pappas, Tommy Adkinson, Rob Atha, Tony Spredeman, Todd Loffredo, Tom Yore, Fernando DeRosa, Brandon Moreland, Johnny Horton, Trevor Park, Robert Mares, Sergie Aragones, Trad Powell, Terry Rue, and others, (not to mention Fredrico) can do on Tornado...this conversation becomes really a discussion about angles and banks and some of these guys can pull those off too just not as consistently as on the TS

have you ever seen Tommy put the 2 bar at deadman and then have some one compress the bumper as much as possible and then he rips dead after dead some without looking...or his sling shot, or Billy shooting everything, Tony's push from goal and front not to mention his walking snake or Rob's sling shots from every rod, or Tom Yores and Terry Rue's tic tak, Johnny Horton (and others) backpin, and Todd who can and will do anything from any rod at any moment (he went through an entire tournament where he shot a Europin...same with Fred except he will do anything from any rod at any moment and from either hand

I think your discussion needs to be which table creates a more open and diverse game in serious tournament play…because in pick up games, trick shots, and the like the guys listed above can rock the house with stuff that is stunning

And besides, who is to say, if TS had lasted this entire time, 26 years later, that the game still wouldn’t have been boiled down to primarily pull and rollover (well and of course the most winning 3 bar shot in the last 10 years on any table the Fredfreakco Euro Pin)

I think we would see a few more pull and pushkicks than today but not that many because it is hard on your arm and it is much harder (even with all the angles available) to have a world class level shot with them – I am however, convinced that you would see several backpins at the top of the game but alas, no one will take the time and make the commitment to show case the best shot in foosball

[bbtuna]

Ed, just becasue players went from TS to Tornado and were successful doesn't mean it couldn't happen the other way just as well...we haven't seen the reverese...all we can say for sure is that really great players can be really great on any table they play on given enough time to adjust

all due respect, i don't think banks biggest issue is rod weight...just bump a ball against the wall and watch it jump...now rod weight may be right up there but in addition the TS ball was much much lighter than the current ball used on Tornado

you said the composit of the Tornado ball is going to change?  what weight difference are you talking about and how is the texture going to change...I would love a little softer for more control but that means jumpier and the ball won't ware as long

[EDGEER]

It has more to do with reation time and kinetic energy of the heavier rod.  You didn't have to swing as fast to get the same energy and speed on the ball.  Also, as I stated before, the reation time on Tornado is at least twice as fast as it was on the solid rods of TS.  It is easier to catch up to a bank on Tornado because the rods move faster and with less effort. 

Finally, I can not think of one person that started playing on Dynamo or Tornado won a championship then played on TS and won a championship there.  Maybe, Simons maybe.  Thats it, all those I mentioned eralier started on TS.

I think that becasue Tornado was such a much better machine, those of us that started playing on them wouldn't put in the time or effort to learn to play on the piece of crap TS table.  Also, Tornado and Dynamo were founded here in Texas and TS never was able to make a foothold.  Vendors would try TS tables and after 6 to 12 months have to replace them because how they were built, most would buy the Dynamo or Tornado instead knowing the machines would last 3 to 5 times longer.  I beleave this is why you never saw Tornado to TS crossovers.

[bbtuna]

well that and TS didn't stay dominant long enough...Tornado and Dynamo just out lasted TS as a company and as a table....all those players  you metioned made the transition to the other tables because there was no other choice, if the shoe was on the other foot, I am sure it would be true in that direction as well

i think it is about the player, not the table...any good player can move from one table to another...look at Todd and look a Rico

[Smyler Grogan]

the Table doesnt have much to do with wether a tour is successful or not, its the promotion of the game. The Toronado table is a well built table but has limited opions. The TS table was a good table but had room for improvements such as the screws in the men. You cant compare Toronado succes and TS's success as far as promotion of the game. The players skill level is the same. There is only one way that Foosball will ever achieve tour status and that is if THE PLAYERS themselves own the rights to the tour table. Any promoter trying to reach tour status by table sales will fail.

[bbtuna]

Smlyer,

welcome to the board, good thoughts, a little off topic but still very relevant to the game today

i see you have been reading that other board a bit...I don't agree with that assesment (wow, that is a surprise no one was ready for that surprise )

look at successful sports models...Baseball, Football, Basketball...each has a League which "owns" the sport and it is not manufacture specific and each is balanced with a powerful players association

this is the formula that has proven to work but that is a long way off for us because no one can figure out a way for making money so there is no National Foosball League - no leadership driving what is best for the entire League...no protection of the asset becasue there is no asset - no power by the players because the stakes aren't high enough to make them unite

for now, until foosball is much much bigger, a manufacturer jumping into promotion is a good thing - anyone who loves the sport and will try their best to drive its growth even if it means money in their pocket...hopefully Mary will survive and grow while ITSF grows ---

if the sport itself can grow in popularity by 10 or 20 times world wide (literally), then maybe we would have a chance of finding a way of becoming a legit sport...until then, we need to take what we can get

[Steve]

I came from the TS table to tornado my game is faster my old shots catch people by suprise they act like they never saw a pushkick I just cant shoot a back pin on them.I dont think the game will get the respect it had ,I see Pro`s dressed like bums on utube wheres the dress code we need to represent...

[Old Meister]

Remember my post about an idea where the player configured his own rods and men and dropped them into the table.  A table with a lock down from the top where the bushings, rod, men and handles are all as per that player's design and need.  So you go to a tournament with your own weaponry. Now THAT would bring about the best configuration and it would be real interesting to see what it is. 
BBtuna, yes I was relating to the fact that more shot types were used effectively thus wider knowledge AND SKILLS were employed.