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Favorite shot

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Offline Daniel

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2005, 01:00:04 AM »
The pull is just a popular as the push???  I think we need more votes.

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2005, 10:00:43 PM »
My favorite shot is back pin. THe reason is quick and no body can stop it.
Push kick is my back-up ,but not working everytime.

Never see snake ,I watch video carefully ,but see no difference between front pin.
Anyone can tell me?

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2005, 12:45:04 PM »
My favorite shot is back pin. THe reason is quick and no body can stop it.
Push kick is my back-up ,but not working everytime.

Never see snake ,I watch video carefully ,but see no difference between front pin.
Anyone can tell me?

Yeah.

The snake is also called the rollover--the reason is that the man lifts off the top of the ball, goes almost 360 degrees around, and then hits the ball in.  It is shot with the wrist on the handle (rather than with the hand).

Some people who shoot the front-pin have a rollover option for the straight, but when it's moved the shot involves bringing the man around behind the ball and then hitting it forward.  The snake involves bringing the man up, around, and hitting the ball.

Essentially, those 3 shots are the only ones that have been really competitive at a high level on the Tornado for the past 10+ years.  The other shots have far too many limitations to be serious tournament-level shots.  The keys to a good tournament shot:
1. It must be unraceable--it has to be fast enough that people can't chase it down.
2. It must be unreadable--you have to have all of your options look identical until the last second, so the opponent can't tell where you're shooting.
3. It has to have enough options to open up the goal.
4. It has to be consistent and at easy enough on the arm so that you can shoot for 3-4 days in a row effectively.

There's another minor key, as well:
a) it has to be easy to learn.  If it's a lot harder to learn, you're taking away practice time that could be spent working on improving your passing or other parts of the game.

So, what do the top players in the world shoot?

Here's one answer, for Tornado tables.  The answer on Bonzini would be different (e.g. it's easier to square off the push-side of the front-pin on that table, and the pull is harder to execute, and the front-pin series that you set up on the far side of the goal and only shoot pull-side options is a viable series):

Just under 50% of the Pro-Master players on Tornado use the Snake as their primary shot.  And about 45% of them use the Pull as their primary shot.

Taken together, those shots account for 92% of the pro-masters.  They satisfy rules 1-4 and (a) for the most part--the pull is probably tougher on the arm, and slightly harder to learn, but for a lot of shooters has more options.  For some people it's easier to learn, and some snake shooters have a lot of options to work with.  The snake is currently the closest to the "ideal" tournament shot, but the pull is pretty close and so people who don't want to or can't shoot the snake tend to go with the pull.

There are also a few front-pin shooters, including Frederico (top player in the world).  The front-pin satisfies 1-4, but it violates (a)--it's very hard to learn.  A lot of people can learn to shoot the pull side effectively, the straight, and a push side that is either angled out (spray, so it can't get around a reverse defense) or slow enough to be somewhat raceable.  Getting to the point where the push side is quick, square, and long (and looks like the other options) is really hard, though.  But, if you put in the time it can be as effective as the pull/snake (at least if you're a Belgian whose initials are FC).

There are still a handful of push-kick and pull-kick shooters left over from the TS tour, but no pro-master under 35 years old uses either of those (and even many of the old-time guys like Jeep have switched to using a snake shot).  Frank Balecha is the closest thing to a new top-level player who shoots it (he shot a push-kick at Vegas last year and got 3rd place), but I think he scrapped it in favor of a snake--at least I saw him shoot a snake this year at Vegas.  Because you're involving 2 men in the shot, the timing is very delicate and it's almost impossible to shoot it consistently over the course of the weekend.  It also tends to be very hard on the elbow and shoulder, and even the best are generally somewhat raceable (with a handful of exceptions through the decades).  They do tend to have a ton of options to work with.

The only pro-master in recent years to shoot a push was Maggie Strong, but she's retired.  The push is really hard for most people to square off, which limits your options.  I mean _really_ hard.  Most people cannot hit a square short push (just around a man covering the straight and then either in straight or cutting back) and many can't hit a square long (they usually have a very fast spray long).  There are a handful of people out there (Frank Goff, Kevin Munroe) who can shoot the heck out of it.  But I'd say it tends to violate 3 and (a).

The back-pin has basically the same options as the front-pin, except that it's impossible to shoot a straight without rocking off the ball first.  So it has all the advantages and limitations of the front-pin, except it inherently violates #2 and there's no good way to prevent that.  It is a bit easier to square off than a front-pin.  Regardless, it's so easy to block compared to other shots that not only have there been no Pro-Master players who shot it in recent memory, but no pros or even good semipros.  It's a lot of fun to shoot and people mess around with it, but it's nearly impossible to shoot at a high tournament level.

What do I shoot?  Primarily a pull in tournament play.  My favorite in funsy games is a back-pin, and from time to time I'll mess around with all of the above.

What should you shoot?  Whatever gets the ball in the goal.  Even if other people have trouble shooting a push-kick, you might have a really nice one--if so, keep using it.  But if you're trying to develop a tournament caliber shot, it's worth looking at what has worked for other people before.

Jackson_foosballer

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2005, 06:30:30 PM »
My favorite and best shot is the pull shot.  I can effectively shoot it with the middle or far man.  My friends have a very hard time stopping it and i still havent mastered all the options that can be used the pull shot.

gbbach

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2005, 10:13:25 AM »
Is the push shot the same as the pull shot except that you push the ball away from you and shoot (all with the middleman)?  If so, why is this such a terrible shot (according to this website)?  It doesnt seem any different than the pull shot.  Could someone explain this please as well as why it is so easy to block.  Thanks.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2005, 01:11:25 PM »
Is the push shot the same as the pull shot except that you push the ball away from you and shoot (all with the middleman)?  If so, why is this such a terrible shot (according to this website)?  It doesnt seem any different than the pull shot.  Could someone explain this please as well as why it is so easy to block.  Thanks.

I'll give it a go.  I'll start off by saying that:
1.  The push is not a horrible shot per se, there are a few out there (Frank Goff, Maggie Strong, Kevin Munroe) that shoot it effectively.  But it does seem to be really hard for most people to shoot effectively on top goalies.
2.  Of the top 200 players in the world, about 45% of them shoot a pull; none of them shoot a push.  Personally, unless I had a pretty good affinity for one shot, I'd lean toward something that's proven to be effective for players at the top level--but if you're smoking your push, by all means stick with it.

Most push shooters can shoot the straight, and they can shoot a very fast spray long (move the ball about to the big dot or slightly past, then it angles out to the far corner).  And they can hit a little slice angle without moving the ball (so if the opponent is blocking straight with the goalie and long with the 2-rod they can angle between them).

I might even venture to say that for most people, when they're first learning it's easier to whack that nice hard, spray long push than a similar pull shot. (the spray long is the one that you shoot near the big dot or a little further, and it angles out to the far side from there).

So a lot of people start off thinking "man, the push is easier for me, I'm going to shoot that instead of the pull and be unique--goalies aren't as used to blocking it, I'll tear them up!"

But:

1.  It's very difficult to square off the push.  If you push the defending 2-bar all the way around you, can you shoot around the near man into the goal?  There's only a handful of people in the world who can do that consistently.  Whereas the deadbar pull (pull the 2-rod toward you and shoot around the far man) is a standard part of the arsenal for even semipro-level players.  More important, it's hard to square off on the very short options (set the 2-rod with its corner blocking the straight, set the 3-rod so there's a hole that's exactly a ball width and no more, and try to hit it--good pull shooters can tuck back into this consistently, but push shooters tend to have trouble doing it fast without telegraphing)

A lot of reasons have been suggested for why it's harder to square off; essentially it comes down to what's natural for most people.  To square the pull shot, you need to pull the rod hard toward yourself and then push it away during the shot.  To square a push shot you need to do the reverse.  And that is a really tough motion for a lot of people.

In fact, the reason that shooting a good pull is more comfortable might be the same reason that the rookie "spray push" is easy to learn: when you're hitting the ball hard, you have a tendency to snap the rod away from you (you're pushing it during the stroke).  This translates into a recoil for the pull that squares the ball off, whereas for the push it translates into a pronounced spray.  It's not impossible to get a good recoil on your push, but for a lot of people it's not natural, easy, or comfortable.

2. It's easy to telegraph.  Especially because a lot of push shooters shoot some options open-handed and some closed-handed (notably the slice angle shot is almost always closed-handed).    This is really weird, since there's no good reason not to use the same technique on all your options--you never see people shooting an open-handed long pull and a closed-handed straight.  Even without that obvious tell, a lot of push shooters telegraph their straight vs. long decisions badly.

3. It's harder to read the long holes vs. the pull; this is offset by it being easier to read the short holes.  But some people postulate that reading the longs is more important for some reason.

Anyway, I'm not sure that I buy (2) and (3) for good shooters--it's just that a lot of push shooters are kind of spray-and-pray bar hacks who haven't worked on developing all 4 holes.

But I do think there's something to (1)--very few people can really execute all the square options, even a 1- or 2-finger off of dead square long, and the tuck short shot.  Even fewer can do them all at reasonable speed.

But if you feel comfortable shooting this shot, go ahead and do it.  There are some people out there who can do it.  Beware that by comfortable, I mean that you're really able to square off a reasonably long push (say, set the 2-bar almost against the wall, leaving the width of your thumb between the bumper and the wall, then shoot around the far man) at your "fast" speed, and you can square the short, and you shoot all the options the same way (closed vs. open-handed).
Because as I said, a lot of people are comfortable in the sense of "man, I can whack the spray long really hard and fast, and hit the straight and a little angle cut, and with those options I can tear up the local bar-hacks!".  But you really need some square options to score a good percentage on tour, and being comfortable with those options is what sets Frank Goff, etc apart from the majority of people who don't ever raise the push to a high level.

And as I said, unless I were really sure I had a natural aptitude for the shot, I'd go with the pull or roller if I were trying to develop a tournament-quality shot.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2005, 05:51:02 PM »
bump

Offline DJCatnip

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2005, 10:38:27 AM »
my favorite shot is the toe. push or pull. ive also been working on my monkey. with that, a pull is more effective for me at this time. but when my push monkey works, its a beautiful sight.

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2005, 06:39:55 AM »
MIDDLE-SET FRONT PIN Series :o

Push, pull, push-cut back, pull cut-back

Accuracy over quickness :-*

Alan

EuroSnake

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2005, 11:20:07 PM »
Snake shoot pull and push :)

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2005, 08:26:17 PM »
 Like a lot of fooser, I start to play foosball at school. It surely wasn't my best choice. For now, my favorite shot is a pull kick, but I'm now doing a very good snake ( push and pull) and a  good back and front pin shot. These 4 shots are making the others foosers crazy and there's not a lot of them that't want to play with me. Why? They just have no fun. For the last 2 months have been playing agains the same guys and they start to save me, it surely piss me off, but i'm always able to win because I am able to mix all those 4 shots. I think that you cant win game with only one shot because they will know where you'll put it, that's why a now master 4 shots. It's not important the shot you prefer, what's important it's how many time your able to score with it.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2005, 12:37:33 PM »
I think that you cant win game with only one shot because they will know where you'll put it, that's why a now master 4 shots.

That's a normal attitude against other new players, but it's not the best idea if you want to get really good at scoring.  The thing you're running into now is players who have no idea how to block a certain shot--say, a pull-kick or a back-pin or whatever.  So you learn an okay back-pin, and okay front-pin, etc and you never get to the top level with any one shot.  Then when you play someone you try to figure out what they can't block and shoot it, and then mix it up when they start blocking it because they're slow at recognizing when you switched to a different shot and have to re-figure out how to block it.

The problem comes in when you start playing good tournament goalies.  They've seen all those shots before, and they have good defenses against all of them--so unless you are very good at executing a shot with a lot of different options, you're not going to score a whole lot.  And because your shots have different setups (Front-pin is pinned in front of the ball, push-kick starts from the near side of the table, etc) it's very obvious to them when you change shots.

At the high levels of the game, you're going to be a lot better off learning 1 or 2 shots well.  Instead of learning 4 new shots, learn 4 new options on your existing shot.  For instance, with a pull, concentrate on getting:
1. A spray long
2. A normal fast straight
3. A short split (2-hole sprays to 3-hole)
4. A square long
5. A square split (2-hole square)
6. A sqare 4-hole
7. A ball-roll straight (roll 1/2 ball width, brush back to the straight)
8. A lift-fake straight

etc.  Honestly, if you can just do 1-5 on that list and know how to read a defense then you will be able to score a very high percentage of your possessions.

Focus on making all of those options look the same so that your opponent can't tell which one you're going to shoot before you do it.  Work on mixing up your timing so you're shooting at different times--waiting 5-10 seconds after the setup, or shooting immediately after the setup, or even shooting a rolling pull during the setup.

Then, if you are shooting spray longs and getting blocked, you can switch to another option.  And your opponent won't realize that you've switched until they hear the ball hit the back of the goal.

Then if you are going to learn new shots, learn ones that can be at least partially disguised--say, learn a push-kick that starts off looking like you're setting up the pull.  Or set up the pull, and start a pull but go into a push-kick immediately back to the far hole.

Then the next step is learning to read the defense effectively and use all those options.

But really, having one primary shot and an emergency backup shot is going to be a much better strategy in the long run than trying to master tons of shots from the start.  There's a good reason the top pros shoot one shot almost exclusively for the course of the tournament.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 12:40:10 PM by SumnerH »

wittw

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2005, 04:36:52 AM »
When playing around, I'm a sucker for the tic-tac series, mainly because it's fun to do and fun to watch.

When playing competitively, I like the Pull and the Front-Toe.

I've only been playing for about a year-and-a-half now, so I can only do a couple trick shots, like a basic airial, but my favorite ones to do are these other shots I do.  I don't know what the names are, but if anyone knows the names, please let me know.  For now, me and my friends have called them "The Full-Court Kick", "The Fake-Mistake", and the "Leap Frog".


The Full-Court Kick.
1.  Start by setting up a basic Airial, but catching with the middle man on the goalie bar and one of the two-bar men.
2.  Instead of tapping it onto the back of the two-rod guy, tap it onto the front of the goalie man (For me, this is the hardest part, because the front of the Tornado man).
3.  As soon as you do that, drop the ball down, and as it bounces up, pop it in the air and towards the goal with your goalie.
When its done in a fast and fluid motion, it looks really cool!


The Fake-Mistake
I think this shot is hilarious.  I did it on accident, but now I do it intentionally, and it's funny to do, and even funnier when it works.
1. Set up for a normal airal shot, so that the ball is on the back of a two-bar man.
2. Line it up so that you have a relatively straight shot for the goal (some people I play lift all the guys to try and block an airial in the air with the toes pointing up, so the whole table is clear!)
3. Angle your guy so that it's as far down as possible without having the ball fall off the back.  Try not to look obvious, though.
4. Instead of flicking it in the air, perform a snake shot.  As you come around, the ball drops on the table in almost perfect position to get hammered by a snake shot that goes zooming along the surface, while all the other player are in the air.

The Fake-Mistake is even funnier if you had just shot an arial, just to add even more irony.


The Leap Frog
This is whitout a doubt the most impressive thing I have ever done, and I know that if I do it on camera, I would post it on every site imaginable.  I've only gotten it to work four times, and of those times, it scored ONCE.  Luckily, there were a couple witnesses, otherwise nobody would believe me.  I still practice it, and I hope one day I can do this consistently.
1. Set up for a normal airial, with the ball on the back of a two-rod man.
2. Line up one of the five-bar men with the two-bar man with the ball, and have the man's body perpendicular to the playing surface.
3. Now for the fun part.  Flick the ball into the air with your left hand, and aim for a little bit passed the back toe of your lined-up 5-bar man.  With your right hand, time it just right so that when you flick the 5-bar, it strikes the ball a second time into the air towards the goal.
4. If you are the Ultimate Foosball God, or if you are damn lucky (like I was), the shot will score.  And if it does, you, and everyone watching, will crap your pants, change your clothes, and rejoice afterwards.

So those are my favorite shots.  Again, if anybody knows the real names of these shots, let me (and the rest of us) know.  If not, then maybe we could stick with these names...

~Mick~
FOOS ON!!!

Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2005, 05:09:09 AM »
I love shooting the snake shot and now and than i like to chuck in a pull kick palm role.

Offline SumnerH

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Re: Favorite shot
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2005, 12:20:12 PM »
The Leap Frog
This is whitout a doubt the most impressive thing I have ever done

Unfortunately it's an illegal pass as well.  If you could do it to the 3-rod then it'd be okay.

Passing rules from the goalie area (goalie or 2-rod) are the same as from 5-rod to 3-rod (except the 2-wall rule, and from 2-to-5 the rules are elminated if the ball hits the opponents' rod). 

If the ball stops, or if it touches the front or back of one of your men, you have to touch 2 men before advancing it.