Topic: Need help with snake shot

[dpnaylor]

I agree with Razor....smoothness, and speed will come. I went back to the beginning of your post though which were in February. It said then you were having no problem hitting the shot, you just wanted to add a cut to it. Your best bet maybe to go to a local bar, or tourney, and let somebody look at your shot. Where are you from?

[VRViperII]

With and without recoil so far hasn't made much difference in terms of percentage of goals.  When I did not add recoil, I would always hit the post.  When I added the recoil, I would usually "swing and miss" the ball and give the ball to the defenders.

I'm from Toronto in Ontario.

Well here's the thing, my area people don't look highly on snake, lol, so I can't find anyone to look at my shot.  We have a mall nearby that's quite famous in our area for top-notch players (even though they're not professional) and none of them use snake.  They only use push kicks or pull kicks mostly.  My friend's friend who used to play there even said that snake is so useless against top players.  So yea... hard to find someone to teach me snake =/

[SumnerH]

With and without recoil so far hasn't made much difference in terms of percentage of goals. When I did not add recoil, I would always hit the post. When I added the recoil, I would usually "swing and miss" the ball and give the ball to the defenders.

I'm from Toronto in Ontario.

Well here's the thing, my area people don't look highly on snake, lol, so I can't find anyone to look at my shot. We have a mall nearby that's quite famous in our area for top-notch players (even though they're not professional) and none of them use snake. They only use push kicks or pull kicks mostly. My friend's friend who used to play there even said that snake is so useless against top players. So yea... hard to find someone to teach me snake =/

There's only 1 top-notch Tornado player in Canada who uses a push-kick or pull-kick (Eric Dunn shoots a great closed-handed pull-kick, although the snake is his primary shot), unless Mitch Jang has switched to one.

Merv Buske, Olavo Tavares, and Kane Gabriel are all good tournament players in Ontario, but I'm not sure if they're from Toronto or elsewhere.  If I were you I'd try to find the local DYP and look up some good tournament players for advice.

None of them would tell you that you can't score a snake against top players, esp. considering that 6 of the top 10 players in the world shoot a snake (one of them alternates between it and a pull).  None of them shoot a pull-kick or push-kick; #23 (Gregg "Jeep" Perrie) used to be one of the top push-kickers but he's gone to the snake at a lot of tournaments.  #28 Thor Donavan shoots a wicked open-handed pull-kick, and then tied at #60 with a ton of people you have Chris Dube (pull-kick) and Ken Allwell (push-kick).  Eric Dunn is #52 but he's a snake shooter in serious compe**ion.

So 3 of the 102 pro-masters shoot a kick shot as their primary these days, unless Jeep goes back to it.

Pretty much the rest of the top 100 are either snake or pull shooters, with a few front-pins (most notably Frederico Collignon) mixed in and John Zoller's crazy tic-tac (very fun to watch but not compe**ive with the top players in scoring percentage).

EDIT: Great censorship filter.  I guess I should have said Eric's a snake shooter in serious compeboobion.

[VRViperII]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdBYQrcsseE

no recoil and the goalie obviously let the attacker shoot the pull side, but amazing ball control

[RedRazor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdBYQrcsseE

no recoil and the goalie obviously let the attacker shoot the pull side, but amazing ball control

That was not a snake shot as it was labeled, it was a pull side front pin with three consecutive fakes. This is also called the "Euro" shot. There is minimal recoil involved if at all, because you have to bring the man from the front around the ball to the back and the ball usually comes to the man. It also appears this person shot it with an open hand, notice the foot of the man going vertical before the ball is struck. This is a great shot to learn as I use it as a quick set and I catch newer players with it while they waiting for me to set up on the Roller. It can be fired extremely fast and is extremely loud and often results in the ball coming back out of the goal. 'Rico uses this shot a lot I believe.

[VRViperII]

Ok I've managed to add recoil into almost all my shots now, but now the problem is I always shoot straight and hit the post.  I am sure I am shooting straight because a lot of the times, I would shoot, then the ball hits the post and bounced right back to my centre attack man.  So what's my problem?  Am I not starting to spin early enough?  Is my lateral moving speed too much faster than my recoil/spinning speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNb18XSxLoc

I notice that the snaker in this video has his man a bit to the pull side of the ball before he does a push snake.  Theoretically, I think this would increase the lateral speed of the ball since there is more contact with the ball when you're moving it sideways.  For a push snake, should I always start the strafing with my guy slightly to the pull side, and likewise slightly to the push side for a pull snake?

[dpnaylor]

To hit that ball perfectly straight and hit the post you are pulling or pushing it out pretty far. I suspect you are still spraying it. Depending on the spin on the ball it may very well bounce right back to you.
Never setup on the ball with an offsetlike you described. Although it might give you a bit more contact during the lateral movement...
If I were a goallie prepairing to block your shot. If you setup on top of the ball like in that video. I know what side you are going to shoot.

When I shoot I very rarley move the ball laterally very far. Why? Because I can score without doing it, against a few different people. They guys I play against can beat most people out at a bar but are by no means pro's or anything. When I practiced all I would do is set the goalie up right in the middle of the goal, and set the ball up directly in front of the goallie and practiced pulling or pushing the ball around the goalie.
It is surprising how little you actually have to move the ball left or right to get around the man!! The shorter the distance you have to move the ball the quicker you are going to get the shot off.

Try this. Setup on top of the ball, and just practice laterally moving the ball left or right and see how hard you can hit the sidewall with it. Dont worry about spinning or hitting the ball.... The ball doesnt move very quickly. When the ball hits the wall does it even bounce back to the middle?

Concentrate on just getting around 1 man consistantly with your shot. The rest will fall into place.

[VRViperII]

yea I am very good at pushing far, haha, so much better than pulling that I am considering just concentrating on a push snake like how people master the pull shot.  For some reason I can start the snake on the furthest pull side of the goal and manage to push snake it to the furthest push goal.  I've gotten quite a few "wow nice shots" that way too.

Of course if I intend to start the ball at an offset like that, I won't stop my dribbling then go for it.  I will keep rocking the ball and quickly pull a bit (to have my guy off the centre) then do a push snake for example.  The quick pull can even be a fake too.

As for the one man part, usually the defence is placed such that I have to get around 1.25 of a man.  What I usually do as practice is that have both defencemen block one side (let's say push).  Assuming that the furthest push hole is 5 and the furthest pull hole is 1.  I set the goalie at 5 and defender at 4.  When I practice the push snake, I consider it a goal if I can hit the goalie without hitting the 4, and this makes sure that I did not spray it (or else it would hit the defencemen).

Maybe I really am moving the ball sideways too much (even though I don't feel it).  Should I slow down my lateral movement speed or increase my spinning speed to shoot the ball faster?

[dpnaylor]

That is a heck of a shot if you can snake it from the far pull side to the far push side. Most people would be able to race that shot to block it because of how far the push is. If you tried what I said with moving the ball laterally, and seeing how far it bounces back off the sidewall. Your probably lucky if it gets back to the middle of the table. (At least for me) I give the ball a quick push or pull and get it moving, and I am pretty much already rotating as soon as I come off the edge of the ball. I wouldnt recommend slowing down your side motion. That just makes it easier to block if the goallie has time to react, and see which way you are rolling with the ball. I try to always do the side motion as quickly, and as smoothly as possible. I guess when it comes down to it you would not be spinning the rod faster, just sooner to get a shot around 1 man quickly.

I have only been working with the shot now for just over a month. I would say my overall shot percentage is around 65% against the people I have played against. I can get a shot off now around a single man in the blink of an eye. They can't race me. They'll loose everytime. What works for me may not work for you. I am just trying to give some insight into what I have found. Some pro reading this may say I am totally wrong. It seems to be mostly new people to the game that post here for the most part. I'll take whatever advice someone gives, and see if I can adapt it to my game. Hope it helps! 

[VRViperII]

just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)?  Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?

[RedRazor]

just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)?  Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?

I would think that they are both as equally deadly in the right hands. Because once you are smooth enough to get around the last man blocking a hole every single time, it's all  about hitting the hole. I think the Euro causes less spray. I have a nice camera I should make some videos.

[Chase Pennell]

it takes years to become good at a front pin....a snake you can be good at in a week....

[dpnaylor]

The reason I chose the snake shot was, I actually read somewhere that it is a fairly easy shot to learn for a beginner, and be good at in a month.  (I started learning the pull shot at first, and after two shoulder surgeries, I couldn't do it for very long when I was practicing over, and over again.  I can honestly say that I have been working on the snake shot for a month now and I am pretty good at it. I can go pull, push, & middle without to many problems. (Setting up the ball is my biggest hang up) My shot is quick enough that the average person could probably not race me. I have just started learning the walking snake, and that is a bit harder. Tony Spredeman makes it look so freakin easy! I think it adds a whole new dimension to the shot, and forces people to move their defense around, and potentialy screw up!

I have messed around with the euro-pin a little bit as well. I can shoot the pull side pretty well but the push side is harder for me. Nothing like the push snake. I have great control over tapping the ball around, and moving it with the euro-pin, so I can see how it can be a very deadly shot if you know what you are doing with it. I can also see how it can take a year or so to master it, and I honestly want to start winning some games before that! The euro-pin will probably become my back-up shot.

[SumnerH]

just wondering, why the snake over the euro (or vice versa)? Does the euro shot have more accuracy but at a slower speed?

There's only one person in the world who can shoot the front-pin highly effectively on Tornado.  The next tier of front-pin shooters have a significantly lower scoring percentage than good semipro snake shooters.  It's very hard to learn to square off the push side, hit it quickly, and not telegraph your options with the front-pin.  Getting a deep snake to both corners is much easier.

On other tables where the men have smaller feet (so it's easier to get around the ball) and the ball is grippier, the calculus changes; there are many effective front-pin shooters on Bonzini/Eurosoccer/etc tables.  (It's also much easier to shoot consistent cutbacks on those tables, and the smaller feet on the defenders make the cutback split a more reasonable option.)

[VRViperII]

be good at the snake in a month?  how many hours do you have to practice each day to be ok at it in that short period?  I don't play often (probably arond 2 hours a week) but I started foosball like 3 years ago.  I've reached the point where I don't seem to be improving on the snake anymore.

i'd say the biggest advantage that the euro shot has over the snake is the walking.  It's so much easier.  Walking the snake with your wrist on the rod is so hard.

To walk the snake/euro, you have to move in fast and small steps right?  or fast and big steps?