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Offline Daniel

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New balls
« on: December 18, 2008, 11:19:49 AM »
Quote
Official tables and balls at World Cup

Some new features

Tornado

The Valley-Dynamo company has released a new model of its Tornado Competition table, which they had been working on for a few months, taking into account comments and suggestions made by players who tried the new table in the different events where it was available.

This one-man goalie table is the one that will be used at the WCup/WCh.

Valley-Dynamo has also released a new competition ball which comes in a dark red colour.

To purchase balls, contact the Valley-Dynamo company.


Garlando

The Garlando company has also created a new ball which was tested by players in several federations and gathered overall satisfaction.

This new ball, called "SpeedPlay" and bearing the ITSF logo, will be used at the WCup/WCh.

To purchase balls, contact the Garlando company.


Roberto Sport, Bonzini and Tecball

The existing Roberto Sport’s "Adrenaline" and Bonzini's new version of its "ITSF B90" tables, which were finalized over the past year, will be used at the WCup/WCh, as well as Tecball's "Tournament Pro Soccer".

No change of balls for these 3 tables, except that the Roberto Sport ball now bears the ITSF logo.

To purchase balls, contact the Roberto Sport, Bonzini and Tecball companies directly.

Does anyone know if we are going to use these ball on the US events and when we can buy.

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 11:45:49 AM »
I have already ordered some directly from Valley, I am not sure if they will be used for the US events, but if they are planning on keeping things even remotely consistent then I would guess they will continue to use this ball.

Re: New balls
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 03:17:59 PM »
Why did Tornado switch to a 1 man goalie?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 05:46:32 PM »
Why did Tornado switch to a 1 man goalie? 

From the discussions on FBB between US players and certain USTSF officials and promoters "in the know" , it seems that the European players who dominate ITSF events have always had distaste for table soccer tables that don't feature 11 vs 11 men.  And I believe Tornado-ValleyD responded in the effort to possibly sell more tables worldwide.  AND keep the ITSF from looking more closely at the Warrior at the same time.

All this "jumping how high?", despite the Tornado's 3player goal rod already having been ITSF approved for the past several years, and the fact that I've never seen a real soccer field with ramps at the corners, which would kinda play havoc on corner kicks.  Neither have I ever seen half-moon, ultra-low, or non-rectangular shaped goal openings on actual soccer fields, as some of the other ITSF tables have always exhibited.  Tornado has already released the 1-man goal conversion kits in Texas, Arlington specifically, for demonstration.  And the original Tornado's 20 years ago did have ramps with 1-player goal rods.

Part of the reliability and durability of those new rampless 3-player goal 1989 Tornados back then was getting around more complicated play fields and how they couldn't get ramps that wouldn't eventually break.  As a left-handed goalkeeper, I will miss the extremely deceptive backslap instant shooting and passing, as well as the ability to settle down the ball near either wall, away from the goal area.  But I had no problems with TS's and Dynamo's, so it won't matter that much.  It might affect those weaned over the past two decades on the G3 and G1 players, but who cares about US foosball, right?  Not Tornado... they've had a rep of ignoring US players (which could be justified, seeing the loss of support and growth in the US) and jump at most ITSF(French and Euro) suggestions in order to increase world sales.

And you can't really blame Tornado.  They now have a real competitor in Warrior for market share, and Tornado has to fight off the more ball-control Warrior with a 1-player goal rod.  Read: if Tornado won't jump, the ITSF could go Warrior's way, not just homologating or approving both for ITSF play.  Euro and other international players would definitely adjust so much faster to the Warrior, and Tornado knows that very well.

Offline bbtuna

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  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: New balls
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 06:00:39 PM »
fk

you know i love ya but it isn't a debate about if 1 man is better than 3...it is a debate about who controls our foosball, if players get a say, and how and when players find out about changes

people can argue for a lifetime on which is better - I don't care, I want a say and I don't want it sprung on our own players 2 weeks before international worlds so that the US players will see the new one man table, their very own previously chosen "home" table, the first time the day they step into the room for what is billed as THE World Championship...sucks, sucks, sucks

Offline foozkillah

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Re: New balls
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 06:45:13 PM »
fk     you know i love ya but it isn't a debate about if 1 man is better than 3...it is a debate about who controls our foosball, if players get a say, and how and when players find out about changes
people can argue for a lifetime on which is better - I don't care, I want a say and I don't want it sprung on our own players 2 weeks before international worlds so that the US players will see the new one man table, their very own previously chosen "home" table, the first time the day they step into the room for what is billed as THE World Championship...sucks, sucks, sucks

Point taken, BBT!  I'm saying that it's pretty much over.... too little too late.  To blame the USTSF, which I believe are there because US players (or was it Tornado selection? A combination?) voted them in, or more likely, because too many US players declined to have a say in selection (sounds like a cat burglary), has repeatedly shown how it will act and in whose interest.  And yes, US players should have a decent say.  Especially in any World Cup or World Championships.

FEAR and MONEY=GREED. 'Splains ebbiteng, yuh.yuh.yuh....

Blame Tornado?  They're no worse than a typical US corporation with profit and growth maximizing as its driving core values.  And they're nowhere even near how evil many US corporations that have taken advantage of, scammed, hoodwinked and virtually raped their US clientele, for over a century.  Bear Stearns, AIG, Madoff, GM, Chrysler???

The trick is, are US Tornado players WILLING to VOTE together WITH THEIR MONEY to force Valley-D-Brunswick to listen and keep US foosball style and original 90's Tornado quality & reliability in force over here?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 06:47:13 PM by foozkillah »

Offline Will17

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Re: New balls
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 06:57:58 PM »
The ITSF has been given a worse reputation than they deserve. I agree that it is not good that they have changed the table right now, I am going to France to play in the world cup and I wish that I had known earlier about these table changes. That said, I think they genuinely care about growing foosball as a whole equally as much as we do. I do not thing they are trying to alienate the US player base.

Remember, the ITSF forced probably even bigger changes to Garlando and Roberto Sport than to tornado. The playing surface and ball were changed, as well as the ramps on the sides of those tables. These changes are very similar to the changes they have made to tornado. Do you think other players in other countries are happy? probably not. These changes are helpful to the entire world wide player base so that people transitioning between one table to another table can do so with a little more ease. They aren't trying to turn the whole game into 1 table, but for growth there needs to be a certain amount of standardization. Only about as much as in tennis or golf, where certain things are always the same and other things can change. I think in the long run this is a step forward, yes it sucks right now, but does it really matter to me if the table has 2 outside men? no




Offline Will17

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Re: New balls
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 07:15:19 PM »
one thing to consider is to look at soccer. FIFA is the world governing body, much like the ITSF is for foosball. Under FIFA is a tier of governing bodies that control each continent. CONCACAF controls north america, UEFA is for europe, etc. I don't think foosball is big enough at this point to support groups like that, but it may well happen one day. Under those bodies are each nations governing association. the FA in england has been at war with FIFA and UEFA for a long time, in the 80's there was a HUGE problem caused when FIFA would not let any british teams compete in international competition. That is like the ITSF telling USA they arn't aloud to play in any ITSF sanctioned tournaments. What i'm saying is this, governing bodies often create problems for specific countries, or maybe every country, but it is imposible to keep everyone happy. They are working towards goals that I completly support, and are specifically outlined on there web site.

People talk about how they don't care about US foosball, you are right, they dont. they shouldn't. To fight for US foosball you need an association that does that for you, like the FA does for england in soccer, like the USASA in soccer for the usa. If one of the governing bodies of foosball in the USA formed a league and had a player base and web site as good as the ITSF then tornado would probably listen the USTSA or anyone else for that matter just as much. The USTSA could fight with the ITSF and represent its own point of view.

The ITSF is fighting for getting foosball into the olympics, raising the general publics awareness of foosball, having a world ranking system, having official tables with standards, and is trying to represent the worlds player base accurately.

If you love foosball why wouldn't you support those things, even if it means your home table gets changed right before the world cup.

Offline bbtuna

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  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: New balls
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 10:00:20 AM »
Will,

you said,

The ITSF is fighting for getting foosball into the olympics, raising the general publics awareness of foosball, having a world ranking system, having official tables with standards, and is trying to represent the worlds player base accurately.

If you love foosball why wouldn't you support those things, even if it means your home table gets changed right before the world cup.


I love foosball and those goals you mention are noble and I am in support of them in general and in the LONG run they should have a positive impact for foosball as a world game.  What the ITSF has accomplished in a short time is remarkable and this shows outstanding leadership vision and execution.

My issues are two-fold.  Your example with soccer is a good one especially considering the parallel to this game being table soccer however, American foosball, with its unique game, solid level table with balls that stay true-round, and its 30+ years of rules development, had its own identity, culture, and history looses its individuality within this autocratic organization which flies in the face of several important values.

American’s most unique characteristics have been taken away without the input of the PLAYERS of the United States.  I believe in standards, I believe in International play, but at the same time, I believe in autonomy and sovereignty.  These things do not have to be mutually exclusive.  Look at the NBA and International basket ball for a perfect example of how these things can co-exist.

I hope that the USTSF had nothing to do with this last minute forced table change.  But even if they did, the USTSF does NOT speak for the players of the US…they are NOT elected officials who have the overwhelming support of the US player base.  What they are doing in the face of the ITSF’s takeover of foosball is noble and I appreciate their efforts but they are a by-product of the ITSF take-over.  They are trying to act as a liaison to the ITSF and are trying to represent the US player base but they do not have the overwhelming support of US players.

Offline Will17

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Re: New balls
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 10:42:32 AM »
I think that you generally agree with me but maybe I came off sounding more negative than positive. I understand the “autonomy and sovereignty” that you are talking about, and I agree that this has been without the players. Your example with the NBA being different than international basketball is similar to the NHL being different from IIHF international hockey, different size of playing surfaces, different rules. In those two circumstances the sports are doing great, so I don’t think that it could be argued that having those rules different would be the limiting factor in the growth of foosball. The rules and table don’t have to be EXACTLY the same for tournaments in North America as they are in Europe. I still think that the standardization is good for the game globally, and in the long run if the table changes work out then maybe we here can adapt those changes, or just continue to play however we want here and abide by the rules in international competition.
If NBA and NHL players can adapt then I think foosball players can adapt.

Re: New balls
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 11:00:12 AM »
I am so sick of hearing about the ITSF "taking over" foosball in the US. It looks to me that whatever takeover occurred, the players are the ones that let it happen.

I came to the realization a long time ago and I've seen nothing to change my mind... Foosball players in the US are incapable of organizing themselves and are unwilling to allow someone to do it for them.

No one held guns to the heads of players and forced them to follow the ITSF lead. If the idea is so repulsive to rank-and-file players, why didn't everyone simply ignore it and continue to do things the "American Way"? I see no one organizing any group as an alternative to the USTSF. If their actions are running counter to the wishes of the foosball majority, why hasn't anyone else stepped up? If they did, would you volunteer your help? Too busy? How about a membership fee to an organization that would fund it's work? You don't trust them with your hard-earned dollars? So instead people do nothing and that vacuum is filled by something you may or may not like. But it will be filled.

There's your choice for an effective organizing effort. Step up, do the work and get it done or get out of the way and help fund someone else do the work. This tune is getting very tiresome
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:01:56 AM by TSR_Brad »

Offline bbtuna

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  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: New balls
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 11:14:55 AM »
I don't care what the goals of the ITSF are or how noble they are changing the table like this with a couple weeks to go is UNACCEPTABLE

the end does NOT justify the means...Tornado has known about this for a long time and they have been trying to get the players of the US to think they are working for them and that they care about them

allowing and/or aggreeing, to a change like this, which Tornado (and ITSF) had to plan far in advance, and not lettiing the US players know, not allowing a dialog with players to debate the merit, not giving the competing US players advance notice or a chance to adjust show me that all the stuff Tornado has been doing and continue to do are just window dressing

Tornado has made the changes they have made, this and others, to stay in bed with ITSF and to sell table in Europe...fine for them, good business, but don't sell out the US players in the process

I don't like this and I am not going to just roll over and take it...I don't have much but I have a voice and a wallet and I will use both

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: New balls
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 11:40:53 AM »
Brad,

I agree in a sense, the players let it happen (sort of) and the US lacks strong leadership and organized meaningful player representation (for sure)...at the same time, this happened in backrooms and behind the scenes...the first time the general population heard of it it was a done deal

the players were in no way involved with this...this was a deal between Tornado and ITSF...some individual players were brought into the thing but again that was behind the scenes and without general player support

We are a leaderless impotent loosely associated group of gamers and it is this lack of leadership and player power which allowed this takeover – to me, this was reminiscent of a third world midnight coup

But, I don't want to and I don't have to just bend over and take it like a man and say "Thank you sir, may I have another"

That table change is WRONG WRONG WRONG on every level possible...I have stood back and watched this whole thing unfold over the last couple of years and I have NOT been antagonistic...I see the vision and respect the leadership prowess of Friad to do what he is doing and I don't want him to stop

But, I am not going to sit by while the US gets crapped on...if this is happening to other countries, then they should stand up and be heard too

I am saying the United States players and US foosball, needs its own identity, sovereignty, voice, and vision...this won't happen without real leadership but it is often through conflict, shared misery, and a collective spirit that good leadership is born or revealed

NOW is the time to stand and start to join with one voice and not slink into the back ground while the playground bully takes your skate board away

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 11:51:31 AM »
I disagree on a couple points.
Tuna said the end does NOT justify the means...Tornado has known about this for a long time and they have been trying to get the players of the US to think they are working for them and that they care about them
1. I think the end does justify the means.
Picture in ten years, foosball is an international sport recognized well, in the olympics, people (including your mom, receptionist at work, and pet hampster) don't laugh every time you say you play foosball. The game is organized well and foosball is thriving...
Tuna... will you still complain that in 2008 the ITSF changed to single men goalies at an inappropriate time? Are you saying you won't buy tornado tables that have single men goalies?

and "Tornado has made the changes they have made, this and others, to stay in bed with ITSF and to sell table in Europe...fine for them, good business, but don't sell out the US players in the process

I don't like this and I am not going to just roll over and take it...I don't have much but I have a voice and a wallet and I will use both
"
2. The ITSF in not doing this against the US. Considering that Garlando and Tornado have had changes made at the exact same time, not even taking into account the new Bonzini ball and the side strips being lowered on robertosport. Just the changes to Tornado and Garlando cause the same problem for 15 countries. there are 15 countries that play on one of those two tables, india, china, ireland, canada, usa, japan, south africa, the uk... these are just the tornado countries.. that is countries in europe, in asia, in north america, and in africa... how can you get upset that they didn't let the US players know, without getting upset at the way that they handled everything?

I am probably going to be effected more by this change than most people on these boards and I don't even care that much, because I believe that this is a step towards the right direction. I honestly believe that the ITSF is trying to keep everyone happpy, including the US.

I also honestly believe that if Tornado's quality control issue isn't resolved then the ITSF would put its foot down and Tornado would have to resolve these issues. I think even if the player base in the US supported the ITSF and emailed complaining about the table surface issues etc then the ITSF would put that pressure on valley dynamo. The table manufacturers won't listen to the players, but they do listen to the ITSF, we just need to see if the ITSF will listen to the players.

I know I have emailed the ITSF only one time, and they emailed me back with a thoughtful and deliberate response. That in itself is important to me.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:55:43 AM by Will17 »

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: New balls
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 11:52:52 AM »
alright you addressed point 2 while i was typing it, i'm going to leave it there anyway because i feel there is some valuable info in it.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:56:26 AM by Will17 »